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What the NFL Draft will tell us about Cristobal and Miami's evaluations

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cway313 said:
No it's wild that you put this out into the world. Pippen averaged over 20 points in 4 out of 17 seasons.
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he was a solid albeit unspectacular offensive player and a top 10 all-time defensive player. that said, his performance with the bulls post jordan really exceeded my expectations for his ability to be the focal point of an offense. he made a deep playoff run with a pretty middling squad.
 
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ALLoverCANE said:
Good argument LOL

Next thing you'll say is it didn't matter that Babe Ruth didn't play vs blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

Sports are zero-sum. Even if the rules make it easier to score now, it's easier to score for everyone.

It's harder to win now because of a much deeper talent pool and more player movement.
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img_2_1660065991462.jpg
 
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ALLoverCANE said:
That was a meandering and disingenuous argument.

1) You compared his assists/FGA to PGs. That's extremely misleading. The fact you had to resort to that evidences that he is in fact a pass-first player.

2) It doesn't matter who "started" super teams. What matters is that LeBron played against them his whole career. Jordan didn't. Even the example you cited was after Jordan retired in 1998. Jordan was lucky that he was on a super team himself.

3) Yes, losing in the finals is better than losing before the finals. I don't know who the "we" you're referring to is. I certainly don't hold it against those guys. It is illogical to think that it is better to lose the conference Finals than to win the conference Finals.

4) The NBA is obviously a much tougher league than any European league. If it weren't, every team in the US would be majority European, since the NBA pays so much better. European players aren't taking 70% payouts to be closer to home for a few years.

LeBron is very clearly a top 2 all time player. It's not just compiling. The fact you think he's behind Kobe suggests you really don't understand how to analyze basketball.
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LMAO; I come back from a run to this nonsense. Geez Louise. Let me see if I can help u out here, b/c it’s kinda tough for LBJ homers to see things optically v. myopically

1. There is nothing “disingenuous” about my statement. I’m comparing longevity stats vs. accomplishments. Longevity stats have their place, but what truly matters is winning. So I gave the comparison of Stockton v. Magic. By definition that LBJ Stans have now created, Stockton should be considered a better PG than Magic, b/c his longevity stats as a PG says he’s a better PG. By Karl Malone’s longevity stats, it says he’s the best PF. No one says that, but imma highlight this further in a second

2. It ahhhhhh absolutely matters who started them. Lol. TF? If LBJ wasn’t able to pull HIS team to greatness, & then has to join another Super Star’s team to win, ummm, how are u the GOAT? If LBJ joins a super team, but can’t create or sustain a dynasty, how does that make u the GOAT?

& I’m perplexed by this “supposed Super Team” MJ played on. R u talking about the 1990-91 - 92-93 “Super Team” that had All Star MJ, All Star Pippen (drafted), + role players Horace Grant (drafted), BJ Armstrong (drafted), Cartwright, & Paxson?

Or maybe u’re talking about 95-96 - 97-98 squad that had All Star MJ, All Star Pippen, + role players Rodman, Harper, Longley, & Kukoc (drafted). Lol

Well let’s compare:

MJ’s cast from 90-91 - 92-93
2nd leading scorer: Scottie Pippen - 19.1 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Horace Grant -13.4 ppg
4th leading scorer: BJ Armstrong -10.4 ppg
5th leading scorer: Bill Cartwright - 7.7 ppg
6th Man: John Paxson - 6.6 ppg

LBJ’s cast from 2010-11 - 2013-14:
2nd leading scorer: Dwayne Wade - 21.9 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Chris Bosh - 17.4 ppg
4th leading scorer: Ray Allen - 10.2 ppg (2 yrs)
5th leading scorer: Chalmers - 8.7 ppg
6th Man: Norris Cole - 6.3 ppg

MJ’s cast from 95-96 - 97-98:
2nd leading scorer: Scottie Pippen - 19.6 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Toni Kukoc - 13.2 ppg
4th leading scorer: Luc Longley - 9.9 ppg
5th leading scorer: Steve Kerr - 8.0 ppg
6th leading scorer: Ron Harper - 7.6 ppg

LBJ’s cast from 14-15 - 17-18
2nd leading scorer: Kyrie Irving - 22.6 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Kevin Love - 17.3 ppg
4th leading scorer: J.R Smith - 10.5 ppg
5th leading scorer: Tristan Thompson - 7.6
6th leading scorer: This is a revolving door b/c he played w/ Wade, Isaiah Thomas, Clarkson, & they all avg. 10+

****, I don’t even wanna do his Laker cast. Lol.

So who has had more help than who? Yet, the results don’t equate. I love LBJ fans saying MJ played on a super team; no genius, it’s called a “Super Team” b/c one or more Superstar leave their team to play with other Superstars. It’s not when a team makes good GM draft decisions and build from the ground up. Lol

3. This is the era of the participation trophy where ppl are now convinced it’s cool to be 2nd or 3rd place. Lol. So I guess I need to revise my thinking on them **** Buffalo Bills of the 80’s - 90’s. Lol

4. The NBA is tougher now, huh? Let’s see what European players have to say:



It’s impossible to play defense in today’s league b/c the rules r overtly slanted to offenses. Illegal screens are allowed, take fouls are now technical fouls, traveling is rarely called, clear path fouls are now technical fouls, u can’t even run out into a shooter’s space or that’s a foul w/ or w/o contact. There’s no more big men guarding the rim, & a PF is a glorified SF. Like what r u talking about?

Here’s the bottom line:
If I were to ask u is this player a 1st ballot HOFer w/ these credentials, what would u say?:
-NCAA Champion
-Undefeated in all championship games played both domestically & internationally (11-0)
-NBA MVP
-2x NBA Finals MVP
-2x Slam Dunk Champion
-9x Scoring Champion
-DPOY
-4x All NBA Defensive 1st team
-1 of 2 Players to have more than one 3-peat
-Highest Scoring Avg. in NBA History
-Highest Playoff Scoring Avg. in NBA History
-Highest Single Finals Scoring Avg. in NBA History
-NBA record for most points in a single playoff
-1st & Only player to win a ring, MVP, Finals MVP, Scoring Title, & make 1st team All Defense in the same season
-3x Steals Leader
-1 of 2 players to go 8 yrs w/o losing more than 2 games in a row
-Record for most total wins in a season, & most wins by a NBA champion in NBA history
-Has a top 50 winning % of all time

If the answer is yes, then that’s the difference between Jordan’s resume in 15 yrs (& really 13 since he missed most of ‘85-86 & 94-95), vs. LBJ in 21. LBJ will be like Emmitt Smith, putting up gawdy longevity numbers & that’s great, but that doesn’t mean GOAT. It’s admirable, but there’s levels to this.

This is where it stands now:
Bill Russell: 1 title every 1.1 years
MJ: 1 title every 2.5 years
Magic Johnson: 1 title every 2.8 years
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 1 title every 3.3 years
Kobe Bryant: 1 title every 4 years
Larry Bird: 1 title every 4.7 years
LBJ: *If he don’t win this year, 1 title every 5.3 yrs

I can put LBJ as my #2, **** I can put him as my #1 b/c MJ doesn’t belong in this discussion. He’s on his own separate mountain. Dude has been retired for 20 yrs & his shoes still outsell all these mofos combined. Lol
 
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canegrad said:
This is just not true. Those schools have plenty of blue chip players that never pan out. They just aren’t counting on a handful of guys to make it, they have a whole stable of those types of players.

I’m not saying that Miami hasn’t had a development issue, just that this is a misleading comment.
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Siiiiiiigh; why do ya’ll continue to do this? There’s is not a single program on planet earth that hits 100% on their recruits, HOWEVER, it’s a known fact the narrative have been that the reason why the aforementioned schools win at an elite clip is due to the talent discrepancy. Cool; but when it’s proven we’ve had that same talent discrepancy vs. OUR SCHEDULE, the narrative is “well, we don’t have the right guys.” So the ? Has been begged, how do those aforementioned schools have the right guys more often than not, but some odd reason the rankings for our blue chip players r somehow incorrect.
 
Rellyrell said:
Siiiiiiigh; why do ya’ll continue to do this? There’s is not a single program on planet earth that hits 100% on their recruits, HOWEVER, it’s a known fact the narrative have been that the reason why the aforementioned schools win at an elite clip is due to the talent discrepancy. Cool; but when it’s proven we’ve had that same talent discrepancy vs. OUR SCHEDULE, the narrative is “well, we don’t have the right guys.” So the ? Has been begged, how do those aforementioned schools have the right guys more often than not, but some odd reason the rankings for our blue chip players r somehow incorrect.
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I agree but what you said is all the blue chips at those schools pan out. Which is not true. That’s all I was arguing. You overall point that we have failed to develop the talent we have is 100% correct.
 
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Rellyrell said:
Siiiiiiigh; why do ya’ll continue to do this? There’s is not a single program on planet earth that hits 100% on their recruits, HOWEVER, it’s a known fact the narrative have been that the reason why the aforementioned schools win at an elite clip is due to the talent discrepancy. Cool; but when it’s proven we’ve had that same talent discrepancy vs. OUR SCHEDULE, the narrative is “well, we don’t have the right guys.” So the ? Has been begged, how do those aforementioned schools have the right guys more often than not, but some odd reason the rankings for our blue chip players r somehow incorrect.
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We also have historically taken "highly ranked" kids with issues that should have been red flags.
 
canegrad said:
I agree but what you said is all the blue chips at those schools pan out. Which is not true. That’s all I was arguing. You overall point that we have failed to develop the talent we have is 100% correct.
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I didn’t mean it in the literal sense. lol
 
Rellyrell said:
LMAO; I come back from a run to this nonsense. Geez Louise. Let me see if I can help u out here, b/c it’s kinda tough for LBJ homers to see things optically v. myopically

1. There is nothing “disingenuous” about my statement. I’m comparing longevity stats vs. accomplishments. Longevity stats have their place, but what truly matters is winning. So I gave the comparison of Stockton v. Magic. By definition that LBJ Stans have now created, Stockton should be considered a better PG than Magic, b/c his longevity stats as a PG says he’s a better PG. By Karl Malone’s longevity stats, it says he’s the best PF. No one says that, but imma highlight this further in a second

2. It ahhhhhh absolutely matters who started them. Lol. TF? If LBJ wasn’t able to pull his team to greatness, & he has to join another Super Stars’ team to win, ummm, how are u the GOAT? If LBJ joins that same super team & can’t create a dynasty, how does that make u the GOAT?

& I’m perplexed by this “supposed Super Team” MJ played on. Are u talking about the 1990-91 - 92-93 “Super Team” that had All Star MJ, All Star Pippen (drafted), + role players Horace Grant (drafted), BJ Armstrong (drafted), Cartwright, & Paxson?

Or maybe ur talking about 95-96 - 97-98 squad that had All Star MJ, All Star Pippen, + role players Rodman, Harper, Longley, & Kukoc (drafted). Lol

Well let’s compare:

MJ’s cast from 90-91 - 92-93
2nd leading scorer: Scottie Pippen - 19.1 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Horace Grant -13.4 ppg
4th leading scorer: BJ Armstrong -10.4 ppg
5th leading scorer: Bill Cartwright - 7.7 ppg
6th Man: John Paxson - 6.6 ppg

LBJ’s cast from 2010-11 - 2013-14:
2nd leading scorer: Dwayne Wade - 21.9 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Chris Bosh - 17.4 ppg
4th leading scorer: Ray Allen - 10.2 ppg (2 yrs)
5th leading scorer: Chalmers - 8.7 ppg
6th Man: Norris Cole - 6.3 ppg

MJ’s cast from 95-96 - 97-98:
2nd leading scorer: Scottie Pippen - 19.6 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Toni Kukoc - 13.2 ppg
4th leading scorer: Luc Longley - 9.9 ppg
5th leading scorer: Steve Kerr - 8.0 ppg
6th leading scorer: Ron Harper - 7.6 ppg

LBJ’s cast from 14-15 - 17-18
2nd leading scorer: Kyrie Irving - 22.6 ppg
3rd leading scorer: Kevin Love - 17.3 ppg
4th leading scorer: J.R Smith - 10.5 ppg
5th leading scorer: Tristan Thompson - 7.6
6th leading scorer: This is a revolving door b/c he played w/ Wade, Isaiah Thomas, Clarkson, & they all avg. 10+

So who has had more help than who? Yet, the results don’t equate. I love LBJ fans saying MJ played on a super team. No genius, a super team is when super star players join together, not when a team makes good GM draft decisions.

3. This is the era of the participation trophy where ppl are now convinced it’s cool to be 2nd or 3rd place. Lol. So I guess I need to revise my thinking on them **** Buffalo Bills of the 80’s - 90’s. Lol

4. The NBA is tougher now, huh? Let’s see what European players have to say:



It’s impossible to play defense in today’s league b/c the rules are overtly slanted to offenses. Illegal screens are allowed, take fouls are now technical fouls, traveling is rarely called, clear path fouls are now technical fouls, u can’t even run out into a shooter’s space or that’s a foul w/ or w/o contact. There’s no more big men guarding the rim, & a PF is a glorified SF. Like what r u talking about?

Here’s the bottom line:
If I were to ask u does this player belong in the HOF w/ these credentials:
-NCAA Champion
-Undefeated in all Champion Games played both domestically & internationally
-NBA MVP
-2x NBA Finals MVP
-2x Slam Dunk Champion
-9x Scoring Champion
-DPOY
-4x All NBA Defensive 1st team
-1 of 2 Players to ever have more than one 3-peat
-Highest Scoring Avg. in NBA History
-Highest Playoff Scoring Avg. in NBA History
-Highest Single Finals Scoring Avg. in NBA History
-NBA record for most points in a single playoff
-1st & Only player to win a ring, MVP, Finals MVP, scoring title, & make 1st team All Defense
-3x Steals Leader
-1 of 2 players to go 8 yrs w/o losing more than 2 games in a row
-Record for most wins in a total season, & most wins by a NBA champion in history
-Has a top 50 winning % of all time

Does this random player deserve to be a 1st ballot HOFer? If the answer is yes, then that’s the difference between Jordan’s resume in 15 yrs (& really 13 since he missed most of ‘85-86 & 94-95), vs. LBJ in 21. LBJ will be like Emmitt Smith, putting up gawdy longevity numbers & that’s great, but:

Russell: 1 title every 1.1 years
MJ: 1 title every 2.5 years
Magic: 1 title every 2.8 years
Kareem: 1 title every 3.3 years
Kobe: 1 title every 4 years
Bird: 1 title every 4.7 years
LBJ: *If he don’t win this year, 1 title every 5.3 yrs

I can put LBJ as my #2, **** I can put him as my #1 b/c MJ doesn’t belong in this discussion. He’s on his own separate mountain. Dude has been retired for 20 yrs & his shoes still outsell all these mofos combined. Lol
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I'm gonna go ahead and add fuel to the fire. You had to know this was coming.

Wilt is the best.

I know I know.. he didn't win a title. Since that's what's holding him back, Bill Russell must be the best.

Joking aside, MJ is the correct answer. You know you're always going to get more out of MJ than anyone else. (except Wilt)
 
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SCarolina Ibis said:
I'm gonna go ahead and add fuel to the fire. You had to know this was coming.

Wilt is the best.

I know I know.. he didn't win a title. Since that's what's holding him back, Bill Russell must be the best.

Joking aside, MJ is the correct answer. You know you're always going to get more out of MJ than anyone else. (except Wilt)
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Wilt was a physical freak (aye man, pause).

Wilt didn’t have the team around him like Russell did; it was Wilt vs.
Russell (Top 75 all time)
Cousy (Top 75 all time)
Havlicek (Top 75 all time)
Sam Jones (Top 75 all time)
Bill Sharman (Top 75 all time)

Wilts early Warriors teams had:
Paul Arizin (Top 75 all time)
Guy Rodger’s (HOFer, but not close to a Top 75 player)
Al Attles (HOFer, but not close to a Top 75 player)
Tom Gola (HOFer, but not close to a Top 75 player)

When Wilt got to The 76ers, then he got to play w/
Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, & Hal Greer (3 HOFers, & 2 NBA top 75 players). He won his first chip.

When he got to play w Jerry West, Gail Goodridge, & Elgin Baylor (before Elgin retired prematurely), caught an older Boston team w/ 2 HOFers + 2 Top 75 players to play w/, a & bingo, chip 2.

Boston had a talent advantage over Wilt; Fck that, Boston had a MASSIVE talent advantage over Wilt, but Wilt put up some individual **** that will never be broken. As far as pure dominance, Wilt & MJ r, by far, the two most dominant individual players. Beyond gifted, & made the game look way easier than it was during their eras.
 
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SWFLHurricane said:
View attachment 284191
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don't forget, he played at a time when clothes-lining a player on a run-a-way dunk was a "common" foul.

now, you graze the head of a player with the hairs on your forearm and the player falls in wailing agony on the ground like a soccer diva and you get 5 free throws and free rides at disney.

GTFOH on lebron. maybe bill russell but not lebron
 
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