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What the NFL Draft will tell us about Cristobal and Miami's evaluations

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ALLoverCANE said:
Jordan at his peak was better than LBJ at his peak. Here's the argument for LBJ:

-40k career points is insane
-Longevity and durability
-The talent pool was much deeper during LBJ's era, due to European players
-There was much more player movement during LBJ's era. Players teamed up to win rings while LBJ was around
-LBJ is the most versatile player of all time. If you were having an all time draft, he'd likely go #1 bc you can pick anyone at #2. You can't pick Kobe second if you pick MJ first, for example
-Losing in the finals isn't worse than losing before the finals

There's no wrong answer. It just depends what you value and how you define GOAT
Click to expand...

Here’s the argument for LBJ:

1. Longevity

That’s it; yet, that argument wasn’t valid for

1. Stockton being the best point guard of all time
2. Malone being the best power forward of all time
3. Kareem being the GOAT (although some old heads view him as such)
4. Stockton being the greatest defender of all time

Here are the inflated facts about LBJ vs. MJ:

1. LBJ is a more versatile player than MJ

Well, that’s interesting b/c LBJ avg. only 2 more assist per game than MJ, 1 more rebound per game than MJ, while avg. less steals, the same amount of blocks, and more turnovers. He avg. 2 less shots than MJ per game for his career.

2. LBJ is a pass first guy

Again, he avg. 7.2 assist while taking 20 shots per game. Magic avg. 11.5 assist while avg. 13 shots per game. Stockton avg. 10.5 assist while avg. 9 shots per game.
Kids avg. 8.7 assist while avg. 11 shots per game

These r the definitions of pass first

3. Losing the Finals isn’t worst than losing before the Finals.

Lol. Since when? Did we hold this same criteria for Jerry West? Did we hold this same criteria for Elgin Baylor? LBJ is the only player to reach the Finals 10x & not have a winning record. In fact, he has the 3rd most Finals losses in NBA history. Furthermore, LBJ has missed the playoffs 4x, have been swept 2x, had a complete choke job in 2011.

4. LBJ makes his teams better

Does he? Fans point to Cleveland collapsing twice after he left, yet fail to acknowledge that both collapse happened AFTER all resources were used to build around LBJ including trading away players, and draft picks ONLY for LBJ to leave, those same players that were traded for to get traded, AGAIN, to reclaim draft picks to rebuild! Lol

They point to Miami in 2014-15, failing to realize that Bosh had season ending lung issues, Ray retired, Wade got hurt, & oh yeah, draft capital gone due to trades.

LBJ attempts to microwave results, and those results have come at the expense of the future.

5. Player movement

Well, guess who started that? Lol. KG, Allen, & Pierce got together in 2007 to chase a ring at the ends of their careers, no different than Barkley, Pippen, & Hakeem linking together in ‘98.

In 2007, KG was in his 13th season at 32 yrs old. Pierce was in his 10th year at 31 yrs old, & Allen was in his 10th at 32 yrs old.

In ‘98, Dream was in 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Barkley was in his 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Pippen was in 12th yr at 33 yrs old.

In 2010 LBJ joined Wade & Bosh. LBJ was in his 8th yr at 26 yrs old. Wade was in his 8th yr at 28 yrs old. Bosh was in his 8th yr at 27 years old.

This would be equivalent to MJ joining Zeke, & Bird in their primes. That seismic shift started the trend of “player movement.” The only player movement, however, has been LBJ & KD. LBJ has been on Cleveland, Miami, Cleveland, & now LA. KD has been on OKC, GSW, Brooklyn, & now Phx. Those two r the poster children of scotch hopping to chase rings, while crying they r GOATs. Lol


This is about LBJ stat stuffing: He knows that’s all he has.

LBJ has never built or sustained a dynasty
LBJ career accomplishments are still a 1st ballot HOF player away from MJ & he’s played considerably longer

It amazes me how longevity stats have become over blown.

MJ has:
More Rings (2 more) in a shorter period of time
More MVPs (1) in a shorter period of time
More Finals MVPs (2) in shorter period time
More DPOY (1) in a shorter period of time
More All Defensive Teams (3) in a shorter period of time

MJ’s peak was 13 yrs, my guy, culminating with him being the oldest player to:
Win the chip, Win the MVP, Win the Finals MVP, Make 1st team All NBA, Make 1st team All Def, Make 1st team, & win All Star Game MVP all in the same season.

LBJ is also the first player to miss the playoffs while
1. Being the NBA Finals Favorite
2. Having 3 or more NBA Top 75 players on one team

LBJ has a lot of holes in his resume compared to MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, & other legends. His legacy is based upon stats compiling, not substance.

Lastly, the era of European players is interesting. Jokic & Luka, specifically said it’s easier to play in today’s NBA than Europe. That’s an issue; The NBA was much more difficult for European players to adjust to in the 80’s - early 2000’s. The rule changes have made it **** near impossible to play defense, & guys coming over from countries where goal tending & paint occupation is allowed, along w physical contact are eating American basketball up. That’s not a good thing for LBJ; it shows he’s playing in a much more watered down, arcade like league. The fact he’s not dominating this league despite the help he has is even more of a black eye.
 
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Rellyrell said:
Here’s the argument for LBJ:

1. Longevity

That’s it; yet, that argument wasn’t valid for

1. Stockton being the best point guard of all time
2. Malone being the best power forward of all time
3. Kareem being the GOAT (although some old heads view him as such)
4. Stockton being the greatest defender of all time

Here are the inflated facts about LBJ vs. MJ:

1. LBJ is a more versatile player than MJ

Well, that’s interesting b/c LBJ avg. only 2 more assist per game than MJ, 1 more rebound per game than MJ, while avg. less steals, the same amount of blocks, and more turnovers. He avg. 2 less shots than MJ per game for his career.

2. LBJ is a pass first guy

Again, he avg. 7.2 assist while taking 20 shots per game. Magic avg. 11.5 assist while avg. 13 shots per game. Stockton avg. 10.5 assist while avg. 9 shots per game.
Kids avg. 8.7 assist while avg. 11 shots per game

These r the definitions of pass first

3. Losing the Finals isn’t worst than losing before the Finals.

Lol. Since when? Did we hold this same criteria for Jerry West? Did we hold this same criteria for Elgin Baylor? LBJ is the only player to reach the Finals 10x & not have a winning record. In fact, he has the 3rd most Finals losses in NBA history. Furthermore, LBJ has missed the playoffs 4x, have been swept 2x, had a complete choke job in 2011.

4. LBJ makes his teams better

Does he? Fans point to Cleveland collapsing twice after he left, yet fail to acknowledge that both collapse happened AFTER all resources were used to build around LBJ including trading away players, and draft picks ONLY for LBJ to leave, those same players that were traded for to get traded, AGAIN, to reclaim draft picks to rebuild! Lol

They point to Miami in 2014-15, failing to realize that Bosh had season ending lung issues, Ray retired, Wade got hurt, & oh yeah, draft capital gone due to trades.

LBJ attempts to microwave results, and those results have come at the expense of the future.

5. Player movement

Well, guess who started that? Lol. KG, Allen, & Pierce got together in 2007 to chase a ring at the ends of their careers, no different than Barkley, Pippen, & Hakeem linking together in ‘98.

In 2007, KG was in his 13th season at 32 yrs old. Pierce was in his 10th year at 31 yrs old, & Allen was in his 10th at 32 yrs old.

In ‘98, Dream was in 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Barkley was in his 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Pippen was in 12th yr at 33 yrs old.

In 2010 LBJ joined Wade & Bosh. LBJ was in his 8th yr at 26 yrs old. Wade was in his 8th yr at 28 yrs old. Bosh was in his 8th yr at 27 years old.

This would be equivalent to MJ joining Zeke, & Bird in their primes. That seismic shift started the trend of “player movement.” The only player movement, however, has been LBJ & KD. LBJ has been on Cleveland, Miami, Cleveland, & now LA. KD has been on OKC, GSW, Brooklyn, & now Phx. Those two r the poster children of scotch hopping to chase rings, while crying they r GOATs. Lol


This is about LBJ stat stuffing: He knows that’s all he has.

LBJ has never built or sustained a dynasty
LBJ career accomplishments are still a 1st ballot HOF player away from MJ & he’s played considerably longer

It amazes me how longevity stats have become over blown.

MJ has:
More Rings (2 more) in a shorter period of time
More MVPs (1) in a shorter period of time
More Finals MVPs (2) in shorter period time
More DPOY (1) in a shorter period of time
More All Defensive Teams (3) in a shorter period of time

MJ’s peak was 13 yrs, my guy, culminating with him being the oldest player to:
Win the chip, Win the MVP, Win the Finals MVP, Make 1st team All NBA, Make 1st team All Def, Make 1st team, & win All Star Game MVP all in the same season.

LBJ is also the first player to miss the playoffs while
1. Being the NBA Finals Favorite
2. Having 3 or more NBA Top 75 players on one team

LBJ has a lot of holes in his resume compared to MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, & other legends. His legacy is based upon stats compiling, not substance.

Lastly, the era of European players is interesting. Jokic & Luka, specifically said it’s easier to play in today’s NBA than Europe. That’s an issue; The NBA was much more difficult for European players to adjust to in the 80’s - early 2000’s. The rule changes have made it **** near impossible to play defense, & guys coming over from countries where goal tending & paint occupation is allowed, along w physical contact are eating American basketball up. That’s not a good thing for LBJ; it shows he’s playing in a much more watered down, arcade like league. The fact he’s not dominating this league despite the help he has is even more of a black eye.
Click to expand...
If Lebron had 4 rings all in Cleveland he would have a stronger argument imo. The bouncing around to play with other all time greats is a conversation ender for me. You cant be a GOAT on somebody else team.
 
Rellyrell said:
Here’s the argument for LBJ:

1. Longevity

That’s it; yet, that argument wasn’t valid for

1. Stockton being the best point guard of all time
2. Malone being the best power forward of all time
3. Kareem being the GOAT (although some old heads view him as such)
4. Stockton being the greatest defender of all time

Here are the inflated facts about LBJ vs. MJ:

1. LBJ is a more versatile player than MJ

Well, that’s interesting b/c LBJ avg. only 2 more assist per game than MJ, 1 more rebound per game than MJ, while avg. less steals, the same amount of blocks, and more turnovers. He avg. 2 less shots than MJ per game for his career.

2. LBJ is a pass first guy

Again, he avg. 7.2 assist while taking 20 shots per game. Magic avg. 11.5 assist while avg. 13 shots per game. Stockton avg. 10.5 assist while avg. 9 shots per game.
Kids avg. 8.7 assist while avg. 11 shots per game

These r the definitions of pass first

3. Losing the Finals isn’t worst than losing before the Finals.

Lol. Since when? Did we hold this same criteria for Jerry West? Did we hold this same criteria for Elgin Baylor? LBJ is the only player to reach the Finals 10x & not have a winning record. In fact, he has the 3rd most Finals losses in NBA history. Furthermore, LBJ has missed the playoffs 4x, have been swept 2x, had a complete choke job in 2011.

4. LBJ makes his teams better

Does he? Fans point to Cleveland collapsing twice after he left, yet fail to acknowledge that both collapse happened AFTER all resources were used to build around LBJ including trading away players, and draft picks ONLY for LBJ to leave, those same players that were traded for to get traded, AGAIN, to reclaim draft picks to rebuild! Lol

They point to Miami in 2014-15, failing to realize that Bosh had season ending lung issues, Ray retired, Wade got hurt, & oh yeah, draft capital gone due to trades.

LBJ attempts to microwave results, and those results have come at the expense of the future.

5. Player movement

Well, guess who started that? Lol. KG, Allen, & Pierce got together in 2007 to chase a ring at the ends of their careers, no different than Barkley, Pippen, & Hakeem linking together in ‘98.

In 2007, KG was in his 13th season at 32 yrs old. Pierce was in his 10th year at 31 yrs old, & Allen was in his 10th at 32 yrs old.

In ‘98, Dream was in 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Barkley was in his 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Pippen was in 12th yr at 33 yrs old.

In 2010 LBJ joined Wade & Bosh. LBJ was in his 8th yr at 26 yrs old. Wade was in his 8th yr at 28 yrs old. Bosh was in his 8th yr at 27 years old.

This would be equivalent to MJ joining Zeke, & Bird in their primes. That seismic shift started the trend of “player movement.” The only player movement, however, has been LBJ & KD. LBJ has been on Cleveland, Miami, Cleveland, & now LA. KD has been on OKC, GSW, Brooklyn, & now Phx. Those two r the poster children of scotch hopping to chase rings, while crying they r GOATs. Lol


This is about LBJ stat stuffing: He knows that’s all he has.

LBJ has never built or sustained a dynasty
LBJ career accomplishments are still a 1st ballot HOF player away from MJ & he’s played considerably longer

It amazes me how longevity stats have become over blown.

MJ has:
More Rings (2 more) in a shorter period of time
More MVPs (1) in a shorter period of time
More Finals MVPs (2) in shorter period time
More DPOY (1) in a shorter period of time
More All Defensive Teams (3) in a shorter period of time

MJ’s peak was 13 yrs, my guy, culminating with him being the oldest player to:
Win the chip, Win the MVP, Win the Finals MVP, Make 1st team All NBA, Make 1st team All Def, Make 1st team, & win All Star Game MVP all in the same season.

LBJ is also the first player to miss the playoffs while
1. Being the NBA Finals Favorite
2. Having 3 or more NBA Top 75 players on one team

LBJ has a lot of holes in his resume compared to MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, & other legends. His legacy is based upon stats compiling, not substance.

Lastly, the era of European players is interesting. Jokic & Luka, specifically said it’s easier to play in today’s NBA than Europe. That’s an issue; The NBA was much more difficult for European players to adjust to in the 80’s - early 2000’s. The rule changes have made it **** near impossible to play defense, & guys coming over from countries where goal tending & paint occupation is allowed, along w physical contact are eating American basketball up. That’s not a good thing for LBJ; it shows he’s playing in a much more watered down, arcade like league. The fact he’s not dominating this league despite the help he has is even more of a black eye.
Click to expand...
I’m a big LBJ fan, his resume is next level and while IMHO he is close to Mike’s level, at the end of the day there just isn’t any argument that lands where he is better than Mike except for longevity and that just isn’t enough. If anything I would argue that comparisons to Mike have actually downplayed what he has accomplished in his career but once again that comes back to the reality that Mike is the alpha and Mt Everest of basketball.

The better debate is Kareem vs Lebron, I got Lebron over him but that one is close as well as difficult as Kareem was a traditional big man. Now don’t get me started on Lebron vs Kobe, where I think the opposite of what happens with Lebron being compared to Mike is in play. The similarities between Mike and Kobe actually elevates him in stature among the greats. Kobe is still an all time great but the Mamba clutch persona is overrated/fabricated and it pulls from Mike’s much stronger record there. It’s kinda like Dame Time right now. A legend is born and some clutch shots are made and a **** ton of bricks are conveniently forgotten.
 
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It tells us most kids think there NFL even before they get here KT prime example.

You can tell these children till your blue in the face and all you’ll get is “ I know what’s best for my family “ .
 
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cway313 said:
If Lebron had 4 rings all in Cleveland he would have a stronger argument imo. The bouncing around to play with other all time greats is a conversation ender for me. You cant be a GOAT on somebody else team.
Click to expand...

I’ve said the same chit; exactly. He has four rings in Cleveland, & I can actually make an argument in his favor.
 
Rellyrell said:
Here’s the argument for LBJ:

1. Longevity

That’s it; yet, that argument wasn’t valid for

1. Stockton being the best point guard of all time
2. Malone being the best power forward of all time
3. Kareem being the GOAT (although some old heads view him as such)
4. Stockton being the greatest defender of all time
Click to expand...

The only thing we can say for sure is Stockton was miles ahead of Steph Curry as an athlete
 
Rellyrell said:
I have been, but more importantly well b4 Mario took to the field, my concern has not been stars (although they are important), it’s been development. My constant gripe have been: How is it that all the blue chip players that has been recruited by Bama, UGA, OSU, UofM, etc have panned out, yet somehow all the guys we’ve recruited are somehow “mis-evaluated?”

So now that Mario’s here, my tune has not changed. I’ve been very consistent that recruiting is & has not been our problem, player development has been. So while it’s cool naming a handful of players that Mario has identified & signed at UO who have or will go on to the NFL, that handful doesn’t move me b/c I can literally do that for every coach since Shannon; is that going to make me forget the remaining 85-90% of those coaches’ classes that did chit here?
Click to expand...
My number one gripe that every failed regime has displayed was never having a true competition for playing time because nothing helps speeds up the self-development process for players was fear of losing your job.
 
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ALLoverCANE said:
Jordan at his peak was better than LBJ at his peak. Here's the argument for LBJ:

-40k career points is insane
-Longevity and durability
-The talent pool was much deeper during LBJ's era, due to European players
-There was much more player movement during LBJ's era. Players teamed up to win rings while LBJ was around
-LBJ is the most versatile player of all time. If you were having an all time draft, he'd likely go #1 bc you can pick anyone at #2. You can't pick Kobe second if you pick MJ first, for example
-Losing in the finals isn't worse than losing before the finals

There's no wrong answer. It just depends what you value and how you define GOAT
Click to expand...
Jordan wipes his *** with LeFlop....
 
Rellyrell said:
How is it that all the blue chip players that has been recruited by Bama, UGA, OSU, UofM, etc have panned out, yet somehow all the guys we’ve recruited are somehow “mis-evaluated?”
Click to expand...
This is just not true. Those schools have plenty of blue chip players that never pan out. They just aren’t counting on a handful of guys to make it, they have a whole stable of those types of players.

I’m not saying that Miami hasn’t had a development issue, just that this is a misleading comment.
 
canegrad said:
This is just not true. Those schools have plenty of blue chip players that never pan out. They just aren’t counting on a handful of guys to make it, they have a whole stable of those types of players.

I’m not saying that Miami hasn’t had a development issue, just that this is a misleading comment.
Click to expand...
Then why is his nephew starting at guard during screen practice?
 
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Rellyrell said:
Here’s the argument for LBJ:

1. Longevity

That’s it; yet, that argument wasn’t valid for

1. Stockton being the best point guard of all time
2. Malone being the best power forward of all time
3. Kareem being the GOAT (although some old heads view him as such)
4. Stockton being the greatest defender of all time

Here are the inflated facts about LBJ vs. MJ:

1. LBJ is a more versatile player than MJ

Well, that’s interesting b/c LBJ avg. only 2 more assist per game than MJ, 1 more rebound per game than MJ, while avg. less steals, the same amount of blocks, and more turnovers. He avg. 2 less shots than MJ per game for his career.

2. LBJ is a pass first guy

Again, he avg. 7.2 assist while taking 20 shots per game. Magic avg. 11.5 assist while avg. 13 shots per game. Stockton avg. 10.5 assist while avg. 9 shots per game.
Kids avg. 8.7 assist while avg. 11 shots per game

These r the definitions of pass first

3. Losing the Finals isn’t worst than losing before the Finals.

Lol. Since when? Did we hold this same criteria for Jerry West? Did we hold this same criteria for Elgin Baylor? LBJ is the only player to reach the Finals 10x & not have a winning record. In fact, he has the 3rd most Finals losses in NBA history. Furthermore, LBJ has missed the playoffs 4x, have been swept 2x, had a complete choke job in 2011.

4. LBJ makes his teams better

Does he? Fans point to Cleveland collapsing twice after he left, yet fail to acknowledge that both collapse happened AFTER all resources were used to build around LBJ including trading away players, and draft picks ONLY for LBJ to leave, those same players that were traded for to get traded, AGAIN, to reclaim draft picks to rebuild! Lol

They point to Miami in 2014-15, failing to realize that Bosh had season ending lung issues, Ray retired, Wade got hurt, & oh yeah, draft capital gone due to trades.

LBJ attempts to microwave results, and those results have come at the expense of the future.

5. Player movement

Well, guess who started that? Lol. KG, Allen, & Pierce got together in 2007 to chase a ring at the ends of their careers, no different than Barkley, Pippen, & Hakeem linking together in ‘98.

In 2007, KG was in his 13th season at 32 yrs old. Pierce was in his 10th year at 31 yrs old, & Allen was in his 10th at 32 yrs old.

In ‘98, Dream was in 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Barkley was in his 15th yr at 35 yrs old. Pippen was in 12th yr at 33 yrs old.

In 2010 LBJ joined Wade & Bosh. LBJ was in his 8th yr at 26 yrs old. Wade was in his 8th yr at 28 yrs old. Bosh was in his 8th yr at 27 years old.

This would be equivalent to MJ joining Zeke, & Bird in their primes. That seismic shift started the trend of “player movement.” The only player movement, however, has been LBJ & KD. LBJ has been on Cleveland, Miami, Cleveland, & now LA. KD has been on OKC, GSW, Brooklyn, & now Phx. Those two r the poster children of scotch hopping to chase rings, while crying they r GOATs. Lol


This is about LBJ stat stuffing: He knows that’s all he has.

LBJ has never built or sustained a dynasty
LBJ career accomplishments are still a 1st ballot HOF player away from MJ & he’s played considerably longer

It amazes me how longevity stats have become over blown.

MJ has:
More Rings (2 more) in a shorter period of time
More MVPs (1) in a shorter period of time
More Finals MVPs (2) in shorter period time
More DPOY (1) in a shorter period of time
More All Defensive Teams (3) in a shorter period of time

MJ’s peak was 13 yrs, my guy, culminating with him being the oldest player to:
Win the chip, Win the MVP, Win the Finals MVP, Make 1st team All NBA, Make 1st team All Def, Make 1st team, & win All Star Game MVP all in the same season.

LBJ is also the first player to miss the playoffs while
1. Being the NBA Finals Favorite
2. Having 3 or more NBA Top 75 players on one team

LBJ has a lot of holes in his resume compared to MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, & other legends. His legacy is based upon stats compiling, not substance.

Lastly, the era of European players is interesting. Jokic & Luka, specifically said it’s easier to play in today’s NBA than Europe. That’s an issue; The NBA was much more difficult for European players to adjust to in the 80’s - early 2000’s. The rule changes have made it **** near impossible to play defense, & guys coming over from countries where goal tending & paint occupation is allowed, along w physical contact are eating American basketball up. That’s not a good thing for LBJ; it shows he’s playing in a much more watered down, arcade like league. The fact he’s not dominating this league despite the help he has is even more of a black eye.
Click to expand...
That was a meandering and disingenuous argument.

1) You compared his assists/FGA to PGs. That's extremely misleading. The fact you had to resort to that evidences that he is in fact a pass-first player.

2) It doesn't matter who "started" super teams. What matters is that LeBron played against them his whole career. Jordan didn't. Even the example you cited was after Jordan retired in 1998. Jordan was lucky that he was on a super team himself.

3) Yes, losing in the finals is better than losing before the finals. I don't know who the "we" you're referring to is. I certainly don't hold it against those guys. It is illogical to think that it is better to lose the conference Finals than to win the conference Finals.

4) The NBA is obviously a much tougher league than any European league. If it weren't, every team in the US would be majority European, since the NBA pays so much better. European players aren't taking 70% payouts to be closer to home for a few years.

LeBron is very clearly a top 2 all time player. It's not just compiling. The fact you think he's behind Kobe suggests you really don't understand how to analyze basketball.
 
cway313 said:
If Lebron had 4 rings all in Cleveland he would have a stronger argument imo. The bouncing around to play with other all time greats is a conversation ender for me. You cant be a GOAT on somebody else teteam.
Click to expand...
He's always been by far the best player on his team.

If Cleveland had drafted Scottie Pippen, he would've never left. Jordan was lucky that the Bulls made one of the great draft decisions of all time and paired him up with Pippen.
 
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