Hope, Golden and talent evals

[bbcane]

Yes he has mentioned being week (in a round about way)numerous times. He said good thing no bowl game , because team needs to get stronger.

 

[Staybon]

yeah he emphasized wanting to get stronger and in better condition probably a little more than the usual new coach would. but most new coaches have some sort of message like that. but then he added in the bench press numbers - emphasizing the improvements. so can see where people get the implied message of he thought the team was weak. i don't think he's come out and used that word though. he's a smart guy, not one to burn bridges. who knows he might look to hire Shannon as his DC one day at another stop. Golden's a smart dude, wouldn't put anything past him.

 

[Bigtip]

he has said that we need to get stronger. that implies that we were weak

 

[bomb]

I'm really encouraged by what I've read and heard about hope's play so far. Particularly because Hope was one kid (the kid, really) that the Internet talent experts (Fish, mf et al.) we're most sure was not only not UM caliber, but nowhere near UM caliber. Now I don't want to crown anyone off a few practices, but the key comments are about his attitude, work ethic and willingness to hit (toughness), which were amongst the things some doubted about him.

Last year, Scott was a kid many of the same guys thought was a huge reach, and he seems to have stepped up.

Many of those posters, who are knowledgable guys on FLA HS FB, said they were concerned that AG didn't know what UM talent looked like, or what a "UM kid" was.

Time will tell, but I'm inclined to think right now that AG deserves the benefit of the doubt. Certainly as to kids that camped with him (Hope).

Curious for 1775's view if he's around here.

I sure hope you are using the word "expert" sarcastically. Bunch of unemployable mailmen and grocery baggers, trying to make a nickel sniffing HS jocks.

I guess you have a grudge against certain folks. I don't agree with your take in any case. Mfcanes coaches at Immokalee, IIRC. He has a lot of personal knowledge on the kids we recruit. Fish, whatever you think of him, legitimately makes a living covers florida recruiting. He is paid by college fb programs so obviously some folks think he provides value. Neither seems to be a mailman or grocery bagger, and both have been right on a lot of the kids we've recruited the past decade that I've paid attention. The irony of your comment is that Bakas is the least qualified of those three to evaluate prospects, and yet many swore by his views.

Bottom line for me is there are folks out there who have first hand knowledge and opinions that are worth considering. Doesn't mean they're always right. Doesn't mean they may not also have biases in some cases. But if you don't want to consider these guys opinions, then why follow recruiting at all? Because al golden sure as **** aint going to discuss recruiting while its on-going. And in either case, why take cheap ad hominem shots at them?

Not a stich of irony. I lump Bakas in there too. I haven't given Canestime a dime in years. It's a joke. And I don't think my "shots" are cheap, and I don't have a care in the world to hold a grudge. But have fun with your words. I am expressing my honest (and I think accurate opinion). After 16 years of subscribing at some point to every single pub there is/was, evaluating the data, getting to know some of these guys, I've come to the educated conclusion that their opinions don't mean much.

NFL scouts, head coaches, and GM's get to poke, prod, test and review 4 years of ESPN and ABC tape of fully developed men.. and THEY get the NFL draft wrong half the time. You think that some fanboys making $11k a year who aren't employable anywhere in the world as a real journalist, or god forbid, anywhere real in sports can "evaluate?" Lets agree to disagree there. Enjoy the lists, rankings, ratings and stars all you want. They mean very little to me. Do I still read and follow? Sure. Its the E! channel of college football. Its entertainment only.

Even if you think there is SOME merit to what they have to offer, you have to admit that calling them "experts" is laughable.

So, you don´t think there is anyone out there, involved in recruiting, who is worth listening to, who could be considered an expert?

On the internet websites??? Not even close. What is the career trajectory for these guys? Have you ever seen one make a real jump? None of these guys will ever get close to being the assistant recruiting coordinator of an NAIA school, let alone D1, D2, D3!!!! There is a reason for that. They are all sub-journalist/ sub-coach self proclaimed recruiting gurus.

For gods, sake, they were all already busted! They admitted it! They cook the books! The more subscriptions your school has, the higher ranked your commitments are. That's an admitted fact!

 

[bomb]

Bunch of unemployable mailmen and grocery baggers, trying to make a nickel sniffing HS jocks.

I don't think my "shots" are cheap, and I don't have a care in the world to hold a grudge.

Clearly.

If you don't find recruiting worth following, or just think it's 'entertainment,' that's fine. But then not sure why you're so focused on belittling folks who actually spend their time watching HS kids play.

As for the term "expert," you'll note I wrote "Internet experts." The modifier has meaning.

As for your criticism that even the NFL gets a lot wrong, I don't look at it the way you do. You can make a fortune in many businesses by being just a bit more right more often than others. The idea that imperfection is a sign of lack of expertise is misinformed.

Not clearly. You realize Tom Lemming actually WAS a mailman before he DECIDED he was a HS recruiting expert, right? That's where that comes from. You don't see people leaving Skadden Arps, Acccenture, ESPN, or the SF 49ers to change careers to a HS recruiting "expert," do you? These kids come from nowhere and get a few bucks to do what they would be doing anyway, hanging out in parking lots and watching football. Unless you're FOX/Scout, lol. Then all you need is a good set of ****. And Ferman and Shodell are recruiting experts??? LOL. Notice that none of these guys have their resumes on line?

And who cares if they "actually watch HS kids play." LOL. I haven't missed a Cane or Giants game in decades, but I'm certainly not qualified to make any picks on draft day. Being a super fan, going to a couple of HS games, watching youtube, and writing about it for $20 a story, does not make you a recruiting expert. LOL.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Bunch of unemployable mailmen and grocery baggers, trying to make a nickel sniffing HS jocks.

I don't think my "shots" are cheap, and I don't have a care in the world to hold a grudge.

Clearly.

If you don't find recruiting worth following, or just think it's 'entertainment,' that's fine. But then not sure why you're so focused on belittling folks who actually spend their time watching HS kids play.

As for the term "expert," you'll note I wrote "Internet experts." The modifier has meaning.

As for your criticism that even the NFL gets a lot wrong, I don't look at it the way you do. You can make a fortune in many businesses by being just a bit more right more often than others. The idea that imperfection is a sign of lack of expertise is misinformed.

Not clearly. And who cares if they "actually watch HS kids play." LOL. I haven't missed a Cane or Giants game in decades, but I'm certainly not qualified to make any picks on draft day. Being a super fan, going to a couple of HS games, watching youtube, and writing about it for $20 a story, does not make you a recruiting expert. LOL.

Again, why are you 'lolling'? You don't think there are any experts and no one knows anything. Okay, great. Don't follow recruiting. But you keep trying to throw barbs at folks who actually do spend time watching kids play, and do know more than most about kids they see play. Why the need to keep trying to put others down? And why do you keep calling them 'reporters?' Of the two guys I've mentioned in this thread, one is a HS coach, and the other is paid by college coaches for recruiting advice. Neither are 'reporters.'

 

[bomb]

I am 'loling' at things I find laughable. It's that simple.

What you call "barbs," I call an accurate assessment of what is out there. I think its quite appropriate to point out the deficiencies and backgrounds of these guys when they are asking you for $100. These aren't people volunteering their time to help the blind and disabled.

To each his own. Not sure why this strikes such a nerve with you. No worries. I have my opinion, and you are welcome to yours.

 

[hawaiicane]

You don't have talent development issues when you have 10 all acc performers, a bunch of guys drafted with some playing/starting in the NFL. Miami lost games b/c of other issues (overall coaching issues/ turnovers etc).

Absolute garbage. lol. Shammin left behind a rotting pile of sewage, a culture of laziness, selfishness, and complacency that destroyed this program's soul. Where the **** was all this alleged talent when it really mattered on gameday???? lol. Shammin's pile of turds are great for wowing NFL scouts at combines. But they were PUSS*ES on the field when it mattered to the program.

forgetting that one of the first things Shannon had the team do as a whole when he took over was to get in shape. Coker had the guys fat and lazy. Shannon got them in shape and went from 5 to 7 to 9 wins before 2010 went down the drains with the Whipple issues. That team was stacked and ready to be the ACC title winners. Shoot, even with the Whipple implosion the team probably wins another couple of games if Jacory doesn't get concussed. And the team was loaded with guys at each position - transfers, suspensions and switching of positions took a lot of the depth that was created away.

lol. Shannon took over a 7-6 team and went 28-22 with it. He didnt do jack shi*. His teams were even WORSE than Coker's pathetic late tenure squads. Coker won 9 games or more in EVERY SEASON except for 2006. Shammin NEVER won more than 9 games and only did it ONCE. Coker NEVER ended a season with only 5 wins. Coker's worst seasons (2004-2006) were better than Shammin's in EVERY RESPECT, overall record, ACC record, bowls, etc. This is not even counting Coker's best seasons where he won with Butchs players.

I could tell you were a Shammin slurper by your other posts and this post just confirms it.

Silly to compare what coker inherited to what shannon inherited. Not even close to being the same.

Who cares what they inherited????? Shammin had FOUR YEARS to turn things around and you were STILL making excuses for him in year FOUR. And you were boasting and bragging about 9 ***king wins in year three when Coker got 9 wins FIVE out of SIX seasons he was here, including 2004 and 2005. lol.

Golden inherited a 7-6 garbage program and went 6-6 and you constantly attack him. Shannon inherited a 7-6 garbage program and went 5-7 and you did nothing but MAKE EXCUSES for him. lol. We all know why. Golden is the wrong skin color. We get it.

And LOL at saying that Shammin "inherited" the program. He was ***king Coker's right hand man the entire time this team sank into oblivion. Is it any wonder why our Shammin led teams were no better and looked even WORSE under Shammin than Coker? It was the ***king exact same pussif(ed, candy *** team. lol.

 

[Larry]

I am 'loling' at things I find laughable. It's that simple.

What you call "barbs," I call an accurate assessment of what is out there. I think its quite appropriate to point out the deficiencies and backgrounds of these guys when they are asking you for $100. These aren't people volunteering their time to help the blind and disabled.

To each his own. Not sure why this strikes such a nerve with you. No worries. I have my opinion, and you are welcome to yours.

Big difference between guys like Ferman/Shodell/Bakas/Stock and Fishbein and Larry Blue and mfcane, so, you and esf are arguing something for nothing.

Fish is apart of a company that colleges buy information from...Larry Blue is the most respected HS Football Guy in SoFla by coaches at all levels, fans, ...MFCane is a HS Coach...all of their opinions should carry some weight if we are discussing recruits.

The books being cooked comes from the top. If you look at, for example...Bakas' list of top prospects...his list v. the scout top prospect list...it varies big time. Bakas' list comes from him watching + the opinions he solicits from coaches (do you not think his opinions come from the coaches he trusts moreover his own opinion? There is a reason why the guy sticks his neck out for a player like Ricardo Allen...Miami may not have offered him, but for certain, there were coaches on our staff that were equally in love with him...take that FWIW).

As for the verbage of "recruiting expert"...its all for nothing...what makes any football head an "expert" when any of their picks or predictions never end up better than 50/50 regardless of the level. What makes you qualified to draft for the Giants? Just the fact you don't have a job, I guess...your hit percentage couldn't possibly be worse than "expert" Matt Millen.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I am 'loling' at things I find laughable. It's that simple.

What you call "barbs," I call an accurate assessment of what is out there. I think its quite appropriate to point out the deficiencies and backgrounds of these guys when they are asking you for $100. These aren't people volunteering their time to help the blind and disabled.

To each his own. Not sure why this strikes such a nerve with you. No worries. I have my opinion, and you are welcome to yours.

I have no idea who or what you're talking about. Neither of the people I mentioned has asked me for a cent.

 

[DiegoCane]

Count me as someone who doesn't think the team was much better off when Shannon took over to when he finished. One of the 1st things Golden said was the team was weak physically. You also could say that Shannon was a DC that couldn't recruit DBs, **** the whole defense that was leftover last year was a mess. No quality CB, S, DT, etc.

Show me where zgolden said the team was weak? I don't remember hearing that. Shannon couldn't recruit db's? Didn't he just have a couple db's drafted and Miami pass defense finsih in the top 10 last year? Also weren't 3 of the 4 starting db's named on the all acc team? Hows that for recruiting db's?

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Golden has said the team needed to get a lot stronger the day he was hired and has said it in almost every interview since then.

Getting 9 DBs in the 09 and 10 class that consists of RRA, Jamal Reid, Brandon McGee, Prince Kent, Latwan Anderson, Keion Payne, Devont'a Davis, Kacy Rodgers, and Jeremy Davis suggests to me that he had trouble a) identifying quality DBs b) identifying high characters kids.

 

[Biscuits]

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Take your own advice.

None of the coaches you mentioned produced significant turnarounds in the win-loss column in year 1. Not one of them.

Stoops won seven games his first year at OU.
Saban won 7.
Tresseel won 7.

Ignoring that, your examples are ****. Derek Strait's first year at OU was Bob Stoops' second. Kind of like, ya know, Tracy Howard's first year at Miami will be Golden's second. Saban - as has been covered many times here - is a horrible comparison. The man coached in the NFL and won a title LSU. He had more pull in his first year at Bammer than perhaps any other coach in history rebuilding a program. Moving Gamble to DB? That, also, happened during Tressel's second year running the Suckeyes.

So, your examples include one situation that's completely useless (Saban), one that actually compares very favorably to Golden (Stoops), and one that's flat out incorrect (Tressel). Great job, hoss. I know you're trolling, but I had to address to larger point. In case someone else falls for your tripe.

 

[hawaiicane]

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Take your own advice.

None of the coaches you mentioned produced significant turnarounds in the win-loss column in year 1. Not one of them.

Stoops won seven games his first year at OU.
Saban won 7.
Tresseel won 7.

Ignoring that, your examples are ****. Derek Strait's first year at OU was Bob Stoops' second. Kind of like, ya know, Tracy Howard's first year at Miami will be Golden's second. Saban - as has been covered many times here - is a horrible comparison. The man coached in the NFL and won a title LSU. He had more pull in his first year at Bammer than perhaps any other coach in history rebuilding a program. Moving Gamble to DB? That, also, happened during Tressel's second year running the Suckeyes.

So, your examples include one situation that's completely useless (Saban), one that actually compares very favorably to Golden (Stoops), and one that's flat out incorrect (Tressel). Great job, hoss. I know you're trolling, but I had to address to larger point. In case someone else falls for your tripe.

lmao. The problem with Nites is that he ***king SUCKS as a troll. His arguments are dumb and when he gets bitc*slapped by the rest of us, he tries to deflect deflect deflect instead of just manning up and admitting that he's being a ******.

:rollcanes:

 

[cinimonBun]

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Take your own advice.

None of the coaches you mentioned produced significant turnarounds in the win-loss column in year 1. Not one of them.

Stoops won seven games his first year at OU.
Saban won 7.
Tresseel won 7.

Ignoring that, your examples are ****. Derek Strait's first year at OU was Bob Stoops' second. Kind of like, ya know, Tracy Howard's first year at Miami will be Golden's second. Saban - as has been covered many times here - is a horrible comparison. The man coached in the NFL and won a title LSU. He had more pull in his first year at Bammer than perhaps any other coach in history rebuilding a program. Moving Gamble to DB? That, also, happened during Tressel's second year running the Suckeyes.

So, your examples include one situation that's completely useless (Saban), one that actually compares very favorably to Golden (Stoops), and one that's flat out incorrect (Tressel). Great job, hoss. I know you're trolling, but I had to address to larger point. In case someone else falls for your tripe.

Don't forget that he also should try paying attention to Golden, since he's mentioned how weak this team was on numerous occasions.

 

[UMFarArcher]

Wow. Comparing little ol' Miami to those huge state sponsored schools of Oklahoma, Alabama, and Ohio State.

If you don't think those names alone don't have a massive draw, just look at what siht-for-brains has been able to pull together at Ohio State the past few months.

I differ from most everyone here in that I consider THIS to be Golden's first season.

Upon his arrival, there had been no real recruiting done, the team was bereft of depth, he was sidewhacked with the NCAA crap, his starters were suspended from early games, and he only had DAYS open to actively recruit.

So I'm anxious to see how many games we win THIS year. Golden's actual First year.

 

[MiamiNites]

he has said that we need to get stronger. that implies that we were weak

every coach will say his team needs to get stronger. We'll prolly hear Golden say that samething every year.

 

[MiamiNites]

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Take your own advice.

None of the coaches you mentioned produced significant turnarounds in the win-loss column in year 1. Not one of them.

Stoops won seven games his first year at OU.
Saban won 7.
Tresseel won 7.

Ignoring that, your examples are ****. Derek Strait's first year at OU was Bob Stoops' second. Kind of like, ya know, Tracy Howard's first year at Miami will be Golden's second. Saban - as has been covered many times here - is a horrible comparison. The man coached in the NFL and won a title LSU. He had more pull in his first year at Bammer than perhaps any other coach in history rebuilding a program. Moving Gamble to DB? That, also, happened during Tressel's second year running the Suckeyes.

So, your examples include one situation that's completely useless (Saban), one that actually compares very favorably to Golden (Stoops), and one that's flat out incorrect (Tressel). Great job, hoss. I know you're trolling, but I had to address to larger point. In case someone else falls for your tripe.

I guess of you can't see the whole picture just make up one and write a post about it. (((YAWN)))


All those coaches I mentioned brought in impact guys that added to the talent that was already on hand. That statement is irrefutable. If you want to look at it yearly then you have Torrance Marshall, Quntin Griffith from OU and AA K Mike Nugent from osu*. No matter how you look at it those coaches brought in impact players rather wanna realize it or not.

**** Stoops even brought in heupel who almost won the heisman.

Again, talking about w/l's is the shallow approach which fails to relate to the bigger picture.

 

[Biscuits]

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Take your own advice.

None of the coaches you mentioned produced significant turnarounds in the win-loss column in year 1. Not one of them.

Stoops won seven games his first year at OU.
Saban won 7.
Tresseel won 7.

Ignoring that, your examples are ****. Derek Strait's first year at OU was Bob Stoops' second. Kind of like, ya know, Tracy Howard's first year at Miami will be Golden's second. Saban - as has been covered many times here - is a horrible comparison. The man coached in the NFL and won a title LSU. He had more pull in his first year at Bammer than perhaps any other coach in history rebuilding a program. Moving Gamble to DB? That, also, happened during Tressel's second year running the Suckeyes.

So, your examples include one situation that's completely useless (Saban), one that actually compares very favorably to Golden (Stoops), and one that's flat out incorrect (Tressel). Great job, hoss. I know you're trolling, but I had to address to larger point. In case someone else falls for your tripe.

I guess of you can't see the whole picture just make up one and write a post about it. (((YAWN)))


All those coaches I mentioned brought in impact guys that added to the talent that was already on hand. That statement is irrefutable. If you want to look at it yearly then you have Torrance Marshall, Quntin Griffith from OU and AA K Mike Nugent from osu*. No matter how you look at it those coaches brought in impact players rather wanna realize it or not.

**** Stoops even brought in heupel who almost won the heisman.

Again, talking about w/l's is the shallow approach which fails to relate to the bigger picture.

I see the picture just fine.

Now we're looking at it yearly? If we weren't doing that before, are you implying that there are zero impact players in the new class?

And did you just use a kicker to validate bringing in 'impact layers?'. Since OSU won an absurd amount of games by slight margins in 02, I guess that makes sense. But are you seriously trying to argue that people thought Knugent was an 'impact player' when he signed with OSU? Seriously. Most of that 2001 class were holdovers from Cooper, anyway.

But the picture is that your argument is pretty baseless right now. How are we supposed to know whether any of the players Golden has brought in to date are impact or not? Again, no one - aside from Leach - knew Heupel would be a player at the time. His other offers were New Mexico and Utah St. We're in year 1.5 of Golden's tenure. It's entirely possible that he's already brought in 'impact players' and we don't know it yet. It's impossible to disprove your ****** point entirely, but it's equally impossible for you to prove it.

 

[Cuse2Miami26]

The product on the field for 2011 is partially golden's fault since he couldn't bring in an impact guy ike most other championship coaches do. Saban brought in Kareem Jackson, Tressel moved Gamble to DB, Stoops brought in derrick Strait......Golden brought in Mike Williams???? Not real hard to see the difference.

Pay attention to the rest of cfb.

Take your own advice.

None of the coaches you mentioned produced significant turnarounds in the win-loss column in year 1. Not one of them.

Stoops won seven games his first year at OU.
Saban won 7.
Tresseel won 7.

Ignoring that, your examples are ****. Derek Strait's first year at OU was Bob Stoops' second. Kind of like, ya know, Tracy Howard's first year at Miami will be Golden's second. Saban - as has been covered many times here - is a horrible comparison. The man coached in the NFL and won a title LSU. He had more pull in his first year at Bammer than perhaps any other coach in history rebuilding a program. Moving Gamble to DB? That, also, happened during Tressel's second year running the Suckeyes.

So, your examples include one situation that's completely useless (Saban), one that actually compares very favorably to Golden (Stoops), and one that's flat out incorrect (Tressel). Great job, hoss. I know you're trolling, but I had to address to larger point. In case someone else falls for your tripe.

Boom +1

 

[DMoney]

I don't really have a ton of respect for Fishbein's eye or football acumen, but Coach Golden pays him for what he does. Is Coach Al LOLworthy?