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S&C yielding early returns

Rellyrell said:
So let me chime in, my boy, and it’s something u said that I’ve said for a min;

My flack for our previous S&C wasn’t how our guys looked. I mentioned several times that our guys had body builder physiques, which looked good, but I questioned functional strength in relation to football. It was interesting to hear both Feld & Love talk about it’s important to get guys strong, but it’s incorporating strengths as it pertains to football functionality. Hence, when see a guy like McCloud who looked physically gifted, make contact in the back field & get pulled fwd 3-4 yrds.

Also, when we went up against a lot of teams, not just the elite, we looked small. Defined? Yes; but bulk, no. Then a poster hit me w/ the nutritional side, & it made perfect sense as to y our guys looked good w/ shirts off, but many didn’t have elite football size at this level. B/c I used to personal train, I never get impressed by how a guy looks; I’ve seen guys look great, but can’t bust out 50 push ups, squat 315+, or even have a strong grip (my former brother in law is a prime example).

So I appreciate u saying how good our guys looked in person, but I was one of the main ones on here that mentioned I didn’t care about how they looked b/c looks vs. abilities or techniques r on separate platforms. Our S&C was on the level of a 24hr fitness personal trainer level vs. football program.
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But a lot of this hinges on ability and talent vs. S&C. Like, you talk about McCloud. I don't want to criticize him, but he was a marginally talented end. No amount of S&C will make up for the fact that he's a limited talent.
 
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Coach Macho said:
We do this every time a new S&C coach arrives.
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I don’t think S&C was a problem under Manny personally

The people that vilify the entire S&C program based on us not converting 3rd and 1s are idiots

We just gotta recruit better athletes across the board

I am encouraged by the emphasis on nutrition though but we will see. It’s not an overnight thing.
 
AlexCane said:
But a lot of this hinges on ability and talent vs. S&C. Like, you talk about McCloud. I don't want to criticize him, but he was a marginally talented end. No amount of S&C will make up for the fact that he's a limited talent.
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Acquisition is the biggest piece. I'm not smart enough to quantify things but it's the barrier for entry into the title game, as Cincy found out. 70%?

Deployment is probably 10% or less.

Development is the rest. However, if your best players aren't able to play at the end of the year that were starting at the beginning, your acquisition is useless and your deployment suffers.
 
AlexCane said:
But a lot of this hinges on ability and talent vs. S&C. Like, you talk about McCloud. I don't want to criticize him, but he was a marginally talented end. No amount of S&C will make up for the fact that he's a limited talent.
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Just using Mccloud as an example again, yes he may lack elite measurements or "talent", he may not have great speed, instincts, bend, etc. whatever. You are correct some guys are just physically different. But to Rell's point, McCloud "looked" strong AF, his point was after contact so all the other stuff, height, wingspan, speed, instincts, etc. are now out the window, it legit is just bringing the guy down. McCloud would then get dragged 3-4 yards, maybe you can harp on tackling technique but it also goes to functional strength.

To put it another way, you can likely get a world class weightlifter, throw him on the football field. Chances are he will not be very good at all the other nuances to even get to the point of making a play. BUT let that dude have you wrapped up and his only job is to yok you backwards, he can likely do that.
 
Cookie917 said:
Just using Mccloud as an example again, yes he may lack elite measurements or "talent", he may not have great speed, instincts, bend, etc. whatever. You are correct some guys are just physically different. But to Rell's point, McCloud "looked" strong AF, his point was after contact so all the other stuff, height, wingspan, speed, instincts, etc. are now out the window, it legit is just bringing the guy down. McCloud would then get dragged 3-4 yards, maybe you can harp on tackling technique but it also goes to functional strength.

To put it another way, you can likely get a world class weightlifter, throw him on the football field. Chances are he will not be very good at all the other nuances to even get to the point of making a play. BUT let that dude have you wrapped up and his only job is to yok you backwards, he can likely do that.
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So we are going to focus on 1 alleged play to now claim that McCloud looked the part but lacked functional strength?! How are you all extrapolating this stuff?

A lot of this is just talent. Sean Spence was an undersized LBer but he made every **** play because he had football instincts and skill regardless of his size or weight room numbers. Good players make plays. We haven't had enough good players.

It's a simple formula. Recruit the top players (meaning 4* and 5*). The top players usually are already more physically developed than their counterparts and/or more physically capable of putting on muscle or weight. (It goes w/o saying but that's why they are 4* and 5* and not 2* or 3*.) Get them in a college S&C program. Coach 'em up. Win.

Instead of recruiting the Zion Nelsons of the world that need to add 60 pounds, get the Evan Neals of the world that are already physically more gifted than everyone else.

If we want to be really simple, it's 45% recruiting, 50% coaching and 5% S&C. Right? Something like that.
 
Cookie917 said:
Just using Mccloud as an example again, yes he may lack elite measurements or "talent", he may not have great speed, instincts, bend, etc. whatever. You are correct some guys are just physically different. But to Rell's point, McCloud "looked" strong AF, his point was after contact so all the other stuff, height, wingspan, speed, instincts, etc. are now out the window, it legit is just bringing the guy down. McCloud would then get dragged 3-4 yards, maybe you can harp on tackling technique but it also goes to functional strength.

To put it another way, you can likely get a world class weightlifter, throw him on the football field. Chances are he will not be very good at all the other nuances to even get to the point of making a play. BUT let that dude have you wrapped up and his only job is to yok you backwards, he can likely do that.
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McCloud was strong. He played high, tackled higher, didn't run his feet on contact, rarely saw him use a leg pick or any other technique on contact.

His stiffness didn't help. Had a nice 1st step get off. Football is going to be about how do you return to peak power (63% of 1RM on let's say a landmine press) on a repeated basis?

Grappling/tackling is positioning, confidence, and having tools in the toolbox for different fits.
 
JHallCanes said:
I don’t think S&C was a problem under Manny personally

The people that vilify the entire S&C program based on us not converting 3rd and 1s are idiots

We just gotta recruit better athletes across the board

I am encouraged by the emphasis on nutrition though but we will see. It’s not an overnight thing.
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Agreed. It was a combination of a number of things. Nutrition probably the biggest. Kyle Bellamy was in way over his head and had no business being in charge of nutrition for an entire program. I have zero doubt Feely was good but combine the number of issues across the board he was working against and it's hard to be elite. Did we ever hear of any assistant S&C coaches besides Ishmael's dad, and that was only because his son was a recruit? Feld has an entire staff under him now. We have a qualified person over nutrition. We hired somebody over Exercise Science as well. Mario knows what is needed in those areas and he was been given the budget to get it.

But like you said, this is not an overnight fix. The culture is probably the biggest thing. Rousseau is on record saying he ate pizza more than anything else his 2 years at UM. That has to change
 
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AlexCane said:
But a lot of this hinges on ability and talent vs. S&C. Like, you talk about McCloud. I don't want to criticize him, but he was a marginally talented end. No amount of S&C will make up for the fact that he's a limited talent.
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Talent matters, yes…not disputing that; but we had a slew of 4 star guys getting drug down field by 3 star guys, my boy. Lol. The RB from App St may still be running through our DL like a see-through pair of panty draws. I can blame talent against Bama, Clemson…but it’s been a struggle against even FIU, bro.

When I look at S&C, I look at trenches, b/c trenches will tell me “functional” strength. The regimens Feeley talked about, I ?’d how will it translate to the field. Looking good is solid, but I felt Feeley & the S&C team was a little out of its depth in today’s landscape of P5 FB. Were there improvements from the previous regime? Yes; but, that’s not saying much b/c one regime had guys on a pizza, cheeseburger bull diet, & the other had a guy who was on a pizza, cheeseburger diet himself. Lol.
 
Rellyrell said:
Talent matters, yes…not disputing that; but we had a slew of 4 star guys getting drug down field by 3 star guys, my boy. Lol. The RB from App St may still be running through our DL like a see-through pair of panty draws. I can blame talent against Bama, Clemson…but it’s been a struggle against even FIU, bro.

When I look at S&C, I look at trenches, b/c trenches will tell me “functional” strength. The regimens Feeley talked about, I ?’d how will it translate to the field. Looking good is solid, but I felt Feeley & the S&C team was a little out of its depth in today’s landscape of P5 FB. Were there improvements from the previous regime? Yes; but, that’s not saying much b/c one regime had guys on a pizza, cheeseburger bull diet, & the other had a guy who was on a pizza, cheeseburger diet himself. Lol.
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And where was the talent on the OL or DL?
 
JG14 said:
Agreed. It was a combination of a number of things. Nutrition probably the biggest. Kyle Bellamy was in way over his head and had no business being in charge of nutrition for an entire program. I have zero doubt Feely was good but combine the number of issues across the board he was working against and it's hard to be elite. Did we ever hear of any assistant S&C coaches besides Ishmael's dad, and that was only because his son was a recruit? Feld has an entire staff under him now. We have a qualified person over nutrition. We hired somebody over Exercise Science as well. Mario knows what is needed in those areas and he was been given the budget to get it.

But like you said, this is not an overnight fix. The culture is probably the biggest thing. Rousseau is on record saying he ate pizza more than anything else his 2 years at UM. That has to change
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Spot on

S&C is as much of a “cultural” thing as anything

It does seem to me that any S&C coach coming in the last decade plus was going to be at a little bit of a disadvantage. Not absolving them but great coaches need willing participants and the workouts are just part of the battle of course

Anyway, you nailed it so no reason to keep going but I’m really encouraged to see what happens. I should be in Miami next week I’m hoping I can make something happen. Would love to see this up close
 
Rellyrell said:
So let me chime in, my boy, and it’s something u said that I’ve said for a min;

My flack for our previous S&C wasn’t how our guys looked. I mentioned several times that our guys had body builder physiques, which looked good, but I questioned functional strength in relation to football. It was interesting to hear both Feld & Love talk about it’s important to get guys strong, but it’s incorporating strengths as it pertains to football functionality. Hence, when see a guy like McCloud who looked physically gifted, make contact in the back field & get pulled fwd 3-4 yrds.

Also, when we went up against a lot of teams, not just the elite, we looked small. Defined? Yes; but bulk, no. Then a poster hit me w/ the nutritional side, & it made perfect sense as to y our guys looked good w/ shirts off, but many didn’t have elite football size at this level. B/c I used to personal train, I never get impressed by how a guy looks; I’ve seen guys look great, but can’t bust out 50 push ups, squat 315+, or even have a strong grip (my former brother in law is a prime example).

So I appreciate u saying how good our guys looked in person, but I was one of the main ones on here that mentioned I didn’t care about how they looked b/c looks vs. abilities or techniques r on separate platforms. Our S&C was on the level of a 24hr fitness personal trainer level vs. football program.
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“Functional football strength” is code for “good player.” After all I suspect you’d have a hard time finding a bad player exhibiting his excellent functional football strength.

It’s probably not feeley’s fault these guys didn’t look like good players. He can’t do everything. If you don’t teach good football habits and employ a good system with buy in then it’d be hard for your strength coach to look good beyond physiques.
 
AlexCane said:
And where was the talent on the OL or DL?
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Our DL had talent:

Nesta was a 4 star
McCloud was a 4 star
Harvey was a 4 star
Taylor was a 5 star
Roberts was a 4 star
Williams was a 4 star

The 3 stars were, Ford, Hunte, & Miller

On OL was lacking; the only 4 stars were
Donaldson was a 4 star
Reed was a 4 star
Scaife was a 4 star
McLaughlin was a 4 star
Rivers was a 4 star (injured)

The irony is our best OLmen weren’t in this group. Clarke becoming C, and Nelson at LT was our best players along the line.

But all of that is moot, my guy, b/c tangible proof shows we’ve been the most talented team against all of our opponents. There’s a reason I brought up FIU & App St. Would anyone dare argue that FIU or App St is more talented than Miami? Of course not, yet both FIU & App St ran the ball effectively against us in the trenches. It wasn’t just a strength problem, we had a football speed problem as well. Str8 line speed was there, but angle, hips, change of direction, buttered toast my g.

So all of that plays a role; there’s a reason Wisconsin, despite all the 3 stars they recruit along the trenches, they can constantly hang w/ teams that recruit at a higher level. Wisconsin has a stellar S&C program, like legit top notch. Talent is apart of the equation, but I saw poor coaching & a subpar S&C program for yrs.
 
Pennmed Canefan said:
“Functional football strength” is code for “good player.” After all I suspect you’d have a hard time finding a bad player exhibiting his excellent functional football strength.

It’s probably not feeley’s fault these guys didn’t look like good players. He can’t do everything. If you don’t teach good football habits and employ a good system with buy in then it’d be hard for your strength coach to look good beyond physiques.
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This is such b.s bro; functional strength has chit to do w/ how good u r as a football player. It’s called functional strength b/c it’s related to the function of ur workout. Body builders train different than boxers, who train different than MMA fighters, who train different than pure wrestlers, who train different than NBA players, who train different than soccer players, who train different than football players.

It’s much more than just eating & lifting weights. There needs to be a purpose; like I said, I’ve met plenty of guys who look great in a T-shirt or w/ their shirt off, but that don’t mean they can do certain things, or that their training is adequate to play football. U’re adding a square peg to a round hole in this discussion. Talent is one part of the equation, but talent needs to be nurtured & developed. If the infrastructure is not there, it doesn’t matter how talented u r.
 
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Rellyrell said:
So let me chime in, my boy, and it’s something u said that I’ve said for a min;

My flack for our previous S&C wasn’t how our guys looked. I mentioned several times that our guys had body builder physiques, which looked good, but I questioned functional strength in relation to football. It was interesting to hear both Feld & Love talk about it’s important to get guys strong, but it’s incorporating strengths as it pertains to football functionality. Hence, when see a guy like McCloud who looked physically gifted, make contact in the back field & get pulled fwd 3-4 yrds.

Also, when we went up against a lot of teams, not just the elite, we looked small. Defined? Yes; but bulk, no. Then a poster hit me w/ the nutritional side, & it made perfect sense as to y our guys looked good w/ shirts off, but many didn’t have elite football size at this level. B/c I used to personal train, I never get impressed by how a guy looks; I’ve seen guys look great, but can’t bust out 50 push ups, squat 315+, or even have a strong grip (my former brother in law is a prime example).

So I appreciate u saying how good our guys looked in person, but I was one of the main ones on here that mentioned I didn’t care about how they looked b/c looks vs. abilities or techniques r on separate platforms. Our S&C was on the level of a 24hr fitness personal trainer level vs. football program.
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With that being said and with better coaching do you think we should push around smaller ACC teams or even be able to blow teams out that shouldn’t be able to hang with us in the first place. How long do you think with the new training ig should actually pay dividends?
 
Rellyrell said:
This is such b.s bro; functional strength has chit to do w/ how good u r as a football player. It’s called functional strength b/c it’s related to the function of ur workout. Body builders train different than boxers, who train different than MMA fighters, who train different than pure wrestlers, who train different than NBA players, who train different than soccer players, who train different than football players.

It’s much more than just eating & lifting weights. There needs to be a purpose; like I said, I’ve met plenty of guys who look great in a T-shirt or w/ their shirt off, but that don’t mean they can do certain things, or that their training is adequate to play football. U’re adding a square peg to a round hole in this discussion. Talent is one part of the equation, but talent needs to be nurtured & developed. If the infrastructure is not there, it doesn’t matter how talented u r.
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Definitely big facts, I’m a firefighter and it’s a different type of training than other things. The gear alone
 
Rellyrell said:
This is such b.s bro; functional strength has chit to do w/ how good u r as a football player. It’s called functional strength b/c it’s related to the function of ur workout. Body builders train different than boxers, who train different than MMA fighters, who train different than pure wrestlers, who train different than NBA players, who train different than soccer players, who train different than football players.

It’s much more than just eating & lifting weights. There needs to be a purpose; like I said, I’ve met plenty of guys who look great in a T-shirt or w/ their shirt off, but that don’t mean they can do certain things, or that their training is adequate to play football. U’re adding a square peg to a round hole in this discussion. Talent is one part of the equation, but talent needs to be nurtured & developed. If the infrastructure is not there, it doesn’t matter how talented u r.
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@Rellyrell @AlexCane ... are you including the "C" portion of S&C in functional strength? By that I mean, how quick a DB can backpeddle and flip his hips, or short area burst, or hands placement and body moves? You mention boxing and MMA.

I have to believe agility is just as important as strength. But I'm not expert enough to know how our S&C program trains the kids up along all those dimensions. No agenda, really interested in your opinions here.
 
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