N'Kosi Perry...Is the too small argument valid?

[The Franchise]

I think we need to be careful not to equate "absorbing blows" with injury propensity. Yes, a 300 lb man can take a hit better than a 150 lb man, but I think the point Chise is making is that adding weight/mass doesn't always correlate with injury reduction.

I’ve seen no studies correlating it at all. I’ve seen no science that supports the idea that packing weight unnaturally on a naturally thin QB makes that QB less susceptible to injuries. That’s the only point I’m making here for the “how much does he weigh?” bozos.

 

[Poptimus]

Think Cam Newton - 6'5". 250-255 or Andrew Luck - 6'4" 245-250. Yea, they run a lot but have taken a pounding; especially in the shoulders. Then there's Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. 6' or so and around 210 and stayed relatively healthy. Even Brady as tall as he is and only around 225. You can see they've learned how to take a hit.

They rarely take hits. Wilson possesses elite elusiveness and Brady has a Marino-esque quick release. Perry can thrive, weight isn't a problem, so long as he knows how to get rid of the ball.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

There is no scientific literature correlating added weight to fewer injuries, but I’m pretty sure you can find epidemiological studies that show a correlation between increased weight and a greater risk of overall injuries in not only the general population, but in a subset of those that are in athletics.

Greater weight puts a greater strain on every joint and ligament in the body. That’s a physical fact that’s indisputable. Clearly, if in the process of adding a sensible and moderate amount of weight you increase muscle strength around the joints and mind to increase ligament and tendon flexibility and strength through stretching and other exercises, you should be better off.

The clear objective is not the absolute increase in mass that weight gain affords, although I’m sure the staff wants some mass increase, but more the increase in strength. Especially with someone like N’Kosi, I would be more concerned with him increasing lower body strength, that would give him better leverage and ability to evade the rush, improve balance, and get away from the grasp of possible tacklers, than just “increasing his weight”

The focus on increasing weight is misguided. It’s about increasing strength.

 

[reg]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.......Did I really just say that?

Not sure, but you definitely typed it!

 

[reg]

There is no scientific literature correlating added weight to fewer injuries, but I’m pretty sure you can find epidemiological studies that show a correlation between increased weight and a greater risk of overall injuries in not only the general population, but in a subset of those that are in athletics.

Greater weight puts a greater strain on every joint and ligament in the body. That’s a physical fact that’s indisputable. Clearly, if in the process of adding a sensible and moderate amount of weight you increase muscle strength around the joints and mind to increase ligament and tendon flexibility and strength through stretching and other exercises, you should be better off.

The clear objective is not the absolute increase in mass that weight gain affords, although I’m sure the staff wants some mass increase, but more the increase in strength. Especially with someone like N’Kosi, I would be more concerned with him increasing lower body strength, that would give him better leverage and ability to evade the rush, improve balance, and get away from the grasp of possible tacklers, than just “increasing his weight”

The focus on increasing weight is misguided. It’s about increasing strength.

I think I just got smarter. Good ****, man!

 

[OriginalGatorHater]

I’ve seen no studies correlating it at all. I’ve seen no science that supports the idea that packing weight unnaturally on a naturally thin QB makes that QB less susceptible to injuries. That’s the only point I’m making here for the “how much does he weigh?” bozos.

I already showed you proof that more muscle makes your connective tissue/collage thicker which decreases your chance of a ligament/tendon injury. Here is a study that shows that progressively increasing resistance/putting on weight increases your bone density. Plus by getting bigger/stronger you can lift more and increase your bone density at an even more rapid rate which will decrease your chances of bone injuries. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/1/30/2836155 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9927006

 

[OriginalGatorHater]

There is no scientific literature correlating added weight to fewer injuries, but I’m pretty sure you can find epidemiological studies that show a correlation between increased weight and a greater risk of overall injuries in not only the general population, but in a subset of those that are in athletics.

Greater weight puts a greater strain on every joint and ligament in the body. That’s a physical fact that’s indisputable. Clearly, if in the process of adding a sensible and moderate amount of weight you increase muscle strength around the joints and mind to increase ligament and tendon flexibility and strength through stretching and other exercises, you should be better off.

The clear objective is not the absolute increase in mass that weight gain affords, although I’m sure the staff wants some mass increase, but more the increase in strength. Especially with someone like N’Kosi, I would be more concerned with him increasing lower body strength, that would give him better leverage and ability to evade the rush, improve balance, and get away from the grasp of possible tacklers, than just “increasing his weight”

The focus on increasing weight is misguided. It’s about increasing strength.

I believe we are in agreement, but just to clarify. Yes being overweight causes plenty of injuries when you are older. I absolutely agree with you on that. I am sure tons of OL, DL etc. have chronic knee/back pain later on in life among other thing. No need to go into that since we are in agreement. I also agree increasing is the number 1 goal. The stronger you are the less likely you are to be injured. However, with a solid S&C program Perry will get stronger as he gets bigger. If Perry stays at maintenance caloric intake for the next year and trains hard in his strength program it is impossible for him to reach the same strength as if he was eating at a caloric excess and putting on muscle. I absolutely don't want Kosi going on cake diet and putting on 15 pounds of fat, but putting on .5-1lb of solid muscle a week is not only doable, but would greatly help him in strength gains. Also, increasing muscle size to a point could also increase acceleration http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1260/1747-9541.6.3.479 especially in the lower body department like you stated. In addition increases in muscle size increases the thickness of collagen/connectivity tissue which would decrease your chances of tendon/ligament injuries. http://www.acsm.org/public-informat...ics/resistance-training-and-injury-prevention Also, weighing more increases bone mineral density and lifting heavier weights also increases it. So by being bigger/stronger you will be lifting heavier weights and increasing it even further which would lower your chances of bone injuries.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/1/30/2836155 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9927006 Also, I have no studies to back this up, but if you get a helmet to the hamstring or similar blows having more muscle mass will help cushion the bones underneath and make you less likely to be injured. Finally, just from years of playing football being bigger and stronger helps you muscle out of sketchy situations that could have caused injuries. Lets say you are running and get your leg caught in a pile of guys and another guy comes and tackles you from the side. If you go down you are going to tear a ligament in your knee. By being bigger/stronger and not getting folded sideways you just avoided an injury. There are plenty of situations where something like that happens that is just an extreme example.

 

[The Franchise]

I already showed you proof that more muscle makes your connective tissue/collage thicker which decreases your chance of a ligament/tendon injury. Here is a study that shows that progressively increasing resistance/putting on weight increases your bone density. Plus by getting bigger/stronger you can lift more and increase your bone density at an even more rapid rate which will decrease your chances of bone injuries. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/1/30/2836155 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9927006

Look at the word “likely” in the article you provided. Also, getting stronger and forcing weight on a QB unnaturally are two different things. Perry can get significantly stronger without adding much, if any, weight.

On top of all that, I’m sure if I cared enough, I could find several articles stating that adding weight quickly and unnaturally increases the strain on tendons and ligaments leading to a higher likelihood of injury.

 

[DTP]

If Perry plays without a helmet and gets punched in the face by DL then I’ll buy your anecdotal musings. Otherwise, you’ve got nothing to back up the idea that packing weight on a naturally thin QB will make him less susceptible to injury.

The physiology of traumatic injuries is not a “common sense” thing; it’s a matter of science.

You've taken my original quote out of context. Originally, i said that a heavier player will absorb impact better but putting an extra ten pounds of weight on Perry will make not make enough of a difference. His frame is too thin to ever gain the necessary bulk to absorb hits better. Unless he just got super fat but that would probably kill his ability to play football regardless.

Let's take individuals out of the equation. Run as fast as you can and collide with a thin sheet of plywood. You'll probably smash right through it. Now do the same thing with an oak tree. The larger mass will have a larger resistance to force.

 

[IDCANE]

Look at the word “likely” in the article you provided. Also, getting stronger and forcing weight on a QB unnaturally are two different things. Perry can get significantly stronger without adding much, if any, weight.

On top of all that, I’m sure if I cared enough, I could find several articles stating that adding weight quickly and unnaturally increases the strain on tendons and ligaments leading to a higher likelihood of injury.

Not even worth arguing anymore. This thread needs to shed some weight. One question, though. Based on this theory - Robert Burns (5'11" 210) is too skinny? What is the magic weight threshold that must be passed to avoid injury?

 

[warpigs58]

The Freshman QB at FSU this year was even skinnier that Perry. So I think the argument is moot. The one thing about Perry is, can he put it together this year and become the guy. I think if he can't beat out Rosier this year to be the starter then there is a good chance that he will probably never become the starter here. The bar for QB play was super low here last year.

 

[HurikaneMarc]

As long as he adds muscle, it doesn't really matter how much he gains. We want our players to be as strong as possible. Period. Because that is what our competition is doing. For some kids that'll mean packing on an extra 35lbs of muscle(as well as some fat and other things) over their college career, for others it may be only 5 pounds. Strength matters in this game and so does mass. I don't think muscles keep you from injury, if it did Mike Pouncey might've played more than 5 games a season for the last 4 seasons. I think being injury prone is unique to the individual and possibly their position and not their size.

Besides many injuries players suffer are actually to the muscles.

 

[OriginalGatorHater]

Look at the word “likely” in the article you provided. Also, getting stronger and forcing weight on a QB unnaturally are two different things. Perry can get significantly stronger without adding much, if any, weight.

On top of all that, I’m sure if I cared enough, I could find several articles stating that adding weight quickly and unnaturally increases the strain on tendons and ligaments leading to a higher likelihood of injury.

And look at the other sources that are more matter of fact. I bet you could not find a study showing an increase in weight quickly causes a higher increase in injury in athletes. Otherwise 99% of D1 players would not be bulking up as soon as they get into D1 S&C programs. You keep throwing that word unnatural out. What do you mean by unnaturally? Juice? Eating more and lifting is not unnatural.

 

[OriginalGatorHater]

Not even worth arguing anymore. This thread needs to shed some weight. One question, though. Based on this theory - Robert Burns (5'11" 210) is too skinny? What is the magic weight threshold that must be passed to avoid injury?

Are you a dumbass? You pick the most injury prone player as your example? Also, no one is saying Perry MUST gain a certain amount of weight to start. We are simply saying packing on extra muscle will make him more durable.

 

[The Franchise]

You've taken my original quote out of context. Originally, i said that a heavier player will absorb impact better but putting an extra ten pounds of weight on Perry will make not make enough of a difference. His frame is too thin to ever gain the necessary bulk to absorb hits better. Unless he just got super fat but that would probably kill his ability to play football regardless.

Let's take individuals out of the equation. Run as fast as you can and collide with a thin sheet of plywood. You'll probably smash right through it. Now do the same thing with an oak tree. The larger mass will have a larger resistance to force.

Running into oak trees at full speed and fighting weight classes really have nothing to do with the subject here.

I readily accept that if you stand in the street and get hit by a car going 50 mph you’re more likely to get hurt than you are if you get hit by a gnat flying 50 mph.

Now, let’s take your hypothetical and make it relevant to this particular subject. Put a 195 pound Perry in the street and have a car hit him at 50 mph. Then, put a 220 pound Perry in the street and have the same exact car hit him at the same exact speed. Show me any science that will support the idea that the 220 pound Perry will fare better.

Let’s make the hypothetical relevant to football now. Same facts with the 195 pound Perry and the 220 pound Perry. Both Perrys are standing tall in the pocket with their back foot planted. Both Perrys are hit directly on the outside of the knee of the plant foot by a 270 pound DE who got the edge clean and dove full speed at the plant leg. Show me any science that supports the idea that the heavier Perry is less susceptible to a knee injury under those facts.

I think what we all want is for our players to be supremely conditioned and to constantly get stronger because that makes them more effective football players. However, I’ve yet to see any proof that rapidly and/or unnaturally packing weight on a QB will make him less susceptible to football injuries.

 

[IDCANE]

Are you a dumbass? You pick the most injury prone player as your example? Also, no one is saying Perry MUST gain a certain amount of weight to start. We are simply saying packing on extra muscle will make him more durable.

No. I'm not a dumbass. I just happen to think that @The Franchise is making more sense than you. Easy as that. And, you make a good point. Some people are more injury prone than others - regardless of muscle or weight - like RB who is adequately sized for his position. And, Perry could add plenty of muscle and not necessarily gain a bunch of weight.

 

[252cane]

This weight **** doesn't matter. Teddy started as a 180lb true freshmen. He was only about 200-205 when he left louisville. Lamar jackson played and started games as a 185lb freshmen.

 

[The Franchise]

And look at the other sources that are more matter of fact. I bet you could not find a study showing an increase in weight quickly causes a higher increase in injury in athletes. Otherwise 99% of D1 players would not be bulking up as soon as they get into D1 S&C programs. You keep throwing that word unnatural out. What do you mean by unnaturally? Juice? Eating more and lifting is not unnatural.

Unnatural is the process of forcing weight onto someone by any means whether it be juice or just forcing them to eat more than someone with the same body type and metabolic rate normally eats. Stuffing someone who naturally burns a lot of calories in an attempt to force weight on him is the definition of “unnatural,”

And I can guarantee you there are studies showing that forcing weight onto athletes in an unnatural manner can have deleterious effects.

Perry will naturally get bigger and stronger as he matures, eats well, and trains. I see no benefit at all in rushing weight onto his body.

 

[The Franchise]

No. I'm not a dumbass. I just happen to think that @The Franchise is making more sense than you. Easy as that. And, you make a good point. Some people are more injury prone than others - regardless of muscle or weight - like RB who is adequately sized for his position. And, Perry could add plenty of muscle and not necessarily gain a bunch of weight.

When some guys get frustrated they lash out. They’re just used to hearing “he needs to get heavier!!” so they parrot that ****. There’s no benefit to forcing weight onto a naturally thin QB. If you don’t like skinny QBs, then recruit heavier ones.

At what magical point does the weight gain make the skinny QB less susceptible to being injured? 20 pounds? 50 pounds? Why don’t QBs just gorge themselves and get up to 350 pounds because weight makes them better and injury proof?

 

[The Franchise]

This weight **** doesn't matter. Teddy started as a 180lb true freshmen. He was only about 200-205 when he left louisville. Lamar jackson played and started games as a 185lb freshmen.

And then when Teddy got bigger and heavier in the NFL he sustained a catastrophic knee injury.

So, yeah. If your number is up it’s up regardless of what you weigh.