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N'Kosi Perry...Is the too small argument valid?

reg said:
It's time to pass the offering plate around because you just preached a much needed sermon. Hopefully, someone got delivered!!! Let the church say, Amen!

It feels like every other day there is a thread created about "Player A" gained 7 lbs, "Player B" grew 1/3 centimeters, "Player C" hat size is now 7 1/2. It's the same repeat offenders [offender] that continually start these type of threads, which most of the content is based off of a Twitter post.

Amen?

Ask Andrew Luck how having extra weight is working out for him.

Now let the church say, Amen!
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Amen brother! now you are speaking my language. Won't HE do it, won't He will!
 
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Hey whomever leads this team, I hope they can scan the whole field. O Line was giving 12 time sometimes and I kid you not, dude would just stare to the right. I am like bro why you staring over there, what are you hoping to happen.
I am going to leave him alone though until after Spring I promise.
 
DTP said:
Common sense. Hit a 160lb guy as hard as you possibly can and then hit a 260 lb guy as hard as you can. See who absorbs the blow better. It's why they have weight classes in boxing.
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Common sense, huh?

I've got a younger cousin over 30 who's maybe 5'7" and weighs about 148 lbs. I've seen a guy 6 inches taller and 70 pounds heavier crack his jaw with a closed fist in a parking lot and watch my cousin get up, laugh at the guy, and tell him he hits like a faqquit.

I've got a friend who's about two years older than my cousin, who runs about 6'1" and 250 lbs. I've seen a fat guy about 5'9" and 260lbs pop my buddy in the face, bust his lip open, and the poor ******* responded with nothing but tears.

How a human being responds to being hit is maybe 20% physical and 80% mental. Obviously, you don't want a physically frail player at any position, but give me the smaller guy with the tough as nails mentality who will get back up, tell the dude that hit him he isn't ****, and stand tall in the pocket over the bigger guy with a frail mind who will be bracing for the impact.
 
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Ken Dorsey was in the 170-180 range when he started as a RS Freshman.

Yes, the argument is absolutely invalid.
 
No_Fly_Zone said:
Common sense, huh?

I've got a younger cousin over 30 who's maybe 5'7" and weighs about 148 lbs. I've seen a guy 6 inches taller and 70 pounds heavier crack his jaw with a closed fist in a parking lot and watch my cousin get up, laugh at the guy, and tell him he hits like a faqquit.

I've got a friend who's about two years older than my cousin, who runs about 6'1" and 250 lbs. I've seen a fat guy about 5'9" and 260lbs pop my buddy in the face, bust his lip open, and the poor ******* responded with nothing but tears.

How a human being responds to being hit is maybe 20% physical and 80% mental. Obviously, you don't want a physically frail player at any position, but give me the smaller guy with the tough as nails mentality who will get back up, tell the dude that hit him he isn't ****, and stand tall in the pocket over the bigger guy with a frail mind who will be bracing for the impact.
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This is all 100% circumstantial. Yes, outliers exist but the laws of physics says that more mass will withstand more force. You're comparing the ability to take/throw a punch with the ability to take full body hit in football. Two totally different things. An experienced boxer is more likely to be able to generate more force behind a punch than a bigger man with no fight training.
 
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The Franchise said:
What does that have to do with forcing weight on a QB or the alleged relationship between adding weight to a QB’s body and the added pounds making a QB more durable.

You have no idea if Perry is increasing his strength or if he’s participating actively and enthusiastically in resistance training.
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I hear he's been working on his grip a lot

His forearms have doubled in size since he stepped on campus
 
The Franchise said:
What does that have to do with forcing weight on a QB or the alleged relationship between adding weight to a QB’s body and the added pounds making a QB more durable.

You have no idea if Perry is increasing his strength or if he’s participating actively and enthusiastically in resistance training.
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No one is asking Perry to put throw on pounds of fat. Everyone wants him to put on solid muscle. If Perry puts on 15 more pounds of muscle and doesn't get any stronger then there is a huge problem with the S&C program. Plus in the article it states that the more muscle someone has the stronger/thicker the collagen/connective tissue is which would lower the chances of joint related injuries upon contact. Obviously, everyone knows that if a DT dives through your knee it doesn't matter if the guy is 150 or 250 the knee is going to break, but for the majority of hits being bigger/stronger is going to increase your injury resistance.
 
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ghost2 said:
I think we need to be careful not to equate "absorbing blows" with injury propensity. Yes, a 300 lb man can take a hit better than a 150 lb man, but I think the point Chise is making is that adding weight/mass doesn't always correlate with injury reduction.
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We are not talking about adding fat. I doubt anyone here wants to see Perry put on 15 lbs of mass(the golden method). We want him to gain 15lbs of muscle which is very doable. An athlete can gain .5-1.5 pounds of solid muscle a week. The more muscle you have the thicker collagen/connective tissue you have which makes you more durable. Its a scientific fact.
 
DTP said:
This is all 100% circumstantial. Yes, outliers exist but the laws of physics says that more mass will withstand more force. You're comparing the ability to take/throw a punch with the ability to take full body hit in football. Two totally different things. An experienced boxer is more likely to be able to generate more force behind a punch than a bigger man with no fight training.
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I think we're talking past each other here. I wasn't making a comparison between the ability to physically take a punch and the ability to physically take a hit in football. I was sharing two anecdotes as a reminder that mental toughness (which I believe is a far more important attribute) is not always related to physical size.

My point is the heavier man, though he may physically withstand more of a pounding, may still respond more poorly to whatever pounding he takes (despite being physically capable of taking more). So long as the player is not physically frail (for injury concerns), if I had to choose, I will take a lighter QB who is mentally tough enough to handle pressure without sacrificing proper throwing mechanics over a heavier QB who may be able to withstand more hits but will sacrifice proper throwing mechanics because he is anticipating contact.

As for the laws of physics, I believe what they say about force and mass is that an objects force is equal to its mass times its acceleration. An object with a greater mass will require more acceleration to move from rest (and thus require more force to move from rest or to stop). Mass definitely affects an individual's ability to take a hit, but it only scratches the surface of a person's ability to take force without injury over another's.

Bio-mechanically, things like muscle mass, body fat %, bone density, skin thickness, BMI, and general "body type" all play a big role in an individual's ability to take contact and avoid injury. So does luck (what's the point of impact? is it a relatively dense part of the body? how much weight is on the body part? what position is the body part in at impact?). And there's also additional factors that affect an individual's ability to avoid taking big hits in the first place, by sensing, avoiding, or bracing for the impact (he's a freak of nature, but I can't remember ever seeing a guy get a clean hit on Barry Sanders). So while heavier is generally more durable than lighter, weight alone is not dispositive.
 
The Franchise said:
Common sense doesn’t apply to scientific matters. Either there’s science to support the theory that forcing weight on a QB inhibits injuries, or there isn’t.
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Hello Franchise - You want science? Climb up a ladder and drop an egg. The egg is going to shatter right? Climb up the ladder again with an egg, only this time wrap the egg in foam rudder. Now the egg doesn't break when you drop it. See...Perry putting on 10 or 15 lbs. is like wrapping your egg in foam rudder!!
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
No one is asking Perry to put throw on pounds of fat. Everyone wants him to put on solid muscle. If Perry puts on 15 more pounds of muscle and doesn't get any stronger then there is a huge problem with the S&C program. Plus in the article it states that the more muscle someone has the stronger/thicker the collagen/connective tissue is which would lower the chances of joint related injuries upon contact. Obviously, everyone knows that if a DT dives through your knee it doesn't matter if the guy is 150 or 250 the knee is going to break, but for the majority of hits being bigger/stronger is going to increase your injury resistance.
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Actually, in that instance, the 150 lb guy has less weight on the joint and, as a result, likely has a better chance of avoiding serious injury. Just saying...
 
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No_Fly_Zone said:
Common sense, huh?

I've got a younger cousin over 30 who's maybe 5'7" and weighs about 148 lbs. I've seen a guy 6 inches taller and 70 pounds heavier crack his jaw with a closed fist in a parking lot and watch my cousin get up, laugh at the guy, and tell him he hits like a faqquit.

I've got a friend who's about two years older than my cousin, who runs about 6'1" and 250 lbs. I've seen a fat guy about 5'9" and 260lbs pop my buddy in the face, bust his lip open, and the poor ******* responded with nothing but tears.

How a human being responds to being hit is maybe 20% physical and 80% mental. Obviously, you don't want a physically frail player at any position, but give me the smaller guy with the tough as nails mentality who will get back up, tell the dude that hit him he isn't ****, and stand tall in the pocket over the bigger guy with a frail mind who will be bracing for the impact.
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If you believe your anecdotal evidence proves anything then I don't know what to tell you. I am sure all of your facts are true, but I have some facts for you as well. I can name hundreds of 6'2 220lbers that would shatter your cousins jaw with a single punch. Alexander Povetkin is one Tony Bellew is 6'1 200 and would also knock your cousin out in 1 blow. Those 2 men would also KO any 150lb man in 1 shot. And guess what? Shawn Porter and Errol Spence the top ranked 147lb boxers would not be able to KO the 2 guys I named earlier in 1 shot either. That is like saying I know a 300lb man who out ran a 80lb man so obviously being fat isnt going to slow you down. So just because your cousin is tougher then some faqquit who outweighs him doesn't mean weight isnt going to give him an advantage. Also the 20/80 is absolute bull****. It is probably 20% mental and 80% physical. Mental plays a big part in getting up and so forth, but when you get knocked literally knocked out your electrolyte balance gets knocked off and you can be the toughest SOB in the world there is nothing you can do about it because you physically can't. Every single top 100 boxer in every weight class is tough as **** and get knocked out all the time. You need to be tough to be able to take constant punishment and keep going, but the guys who have the best "chin" are the ones who are genetically gifted with granite chins.
 
No_Fly_Zone said:
Actually, in that instance, the 150 lb guy has less weight on the joint and, as a result, likely has a better chance of avoiding serious injury. Just saying...
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Either way they are both getting injured and like I said for the 95% of the other shots they take it is a pure benefit.
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
If you believe your anecdotal evidence proves anything then I don't know what to tell you. I am sure all of your facts are true, but I have some facts for you as well. I can name hundreds of 6'2 220lbers that would shatter your cousins jaw with a single punch. Alexander Povetkin is one Tony Bellew is 6'1 200 and would also knock your cousin out in 1 blow. Those 2 men would also KO any 150lb man in 1 shot. And guess what? Shawn Porter and Errol Spence the top ranked 147lb boxers would not be able to KO the 2 guys I named earlier in 1 shot either. That is like saying I know a 300lb man who out ran a 80lb man so obviously being fat isnt going to slow you down. So just because your cousin is tougher then some faqquit who outweighs him doesn't mean weight isnt going to give him an advantage. Also the 20/80 is absolute bull****. It is probably 20% mental and 80% physical. Mental plays a big part in getting up and so forth, but when you get knocked literally knocked out your electrolyte balance gets knocked off and you can be the toughest SOB in the world there is nothing you can do about it because you physically can't. Every single top 100 boxer in every weight class is tough as **** and get knocked out all the time. You need to be tough to be able to take constant punishment and keep going, but the guys who have the best "chin" are the ones who are genetically gifted with granite chins.
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Again, nobody (at least not this guy) is saying a 122 lb featherweight can generate the same punching power as a 200 lb heavyweight. I am not saying my cousin can't get knocked out. He can. I've seen that too. But my point is it would not cause him to flinch the next time he's put in a similar situation. That is mental toughness. A person's ability to get the fvck up and maintain composure despite getting hit multiple times.

You guys are discussing QBs taking one giant "knockout hit" without getting hurt. That's a valid topic, but it's not what I'm addressing. And so long as the QB isn't physically frail or "injury-prone," I care less about their ability to physically withstand some "knockout hit." I care more about a QB's ability to stand tall and deliver a throw with proper mechanics after he has taken two, five, seven, or fifteen shots in a game. I want the guy who doesn't flinch. Because they are all going to get hit and get hit often. And it is going to hurt. Some QBs really care about that, and some don't. I want the guys who don't.
 
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No_Fly_Zone said:
Again, nobody (at least not this guy) is saying a 122 lb featherweight can generate the same punching power as a 200 lb heavyweight. I am not saying my cousin can't get knocked out. He can. I've seen that too. But my point is it would not cause him to flinch the next time he's put in a similar situation. That is mental toughness. A person's ability to get the fvck up and maintain composure despite getting hit multiple times.

You guys are discussing QBs taking one giant "knockout hit" without getting hurt. That's a valid topic, but it's not what I'm addressing. And so long as the QB isn't physically frail or "injury-prone," I care less about their ability to physically withstand some "knockout hit." I care more about a QB's ability to stand tall and deliver a throw with proper mechanics after he has taken two, five, seven, or fifteen shots in a game. I want the guy who doesn't flinch. Because they are all going to get hit and get hit often. And it is going to hurt. Some QBs really care about that, and some don't. I want the guys who don't.
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I agree with you regarding the not getting shook part. You have guys who take a beating and then start throwing the ball early as soon as there is pressure. Then you have guys who will hang out in the pocket and take shots all day and never get shook up. I agree that is basically pure mental toughness. However, we are not talking about 1 knockout hit. At least I am not. Being bigger and stronger is going to help you take the constant punishment before getting a serious injury. I am not saying that there is a certain number of hits a guy can take before they get injured, but lets say the skinny QB takes 100 hits and the more muscular QB takes 100 hits. The bigger guy is less likely to get an actual injury(torn ACL, rotator cuff injury, etc.) By the time you are 19-20 years old you probably wont be developing your mental toughness much(especially if you are sitting comfy on a full ride scholorship to the U), but you still have tons of time to develop muscle mass and make yourself more durable. Obviously some people do get mentally tougher at this age(join the marines, become homeless, etc.), but it is a lot less common then people getting raised in certain environments that develops kids into tough men(being raised in the crime filled neighborhoods, raised on a farm doing back breaking work, etc).
 
DTP said:
Common sense. Hit a 160lb guy as hard as you possibly can and then hit a 260 lb guy as hard as you can. See who absorbs the blow better. It's why they have weight classes in boxing.
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If Perry plays without a helmet and gets punched in the face by DL then I’ll buy your anecdotal musings. Otherwise, you’ve got nothing to back up the idea that packing weight on a naturally thin QB will make him less susceptible to injury.

The physiology of traumatic injuries is not a “common sense” thing; it’s a matter of science.
 
grover said:
Again, I understand the point Chise is trying to make and agree that Perry's weight will not be the determining factor.

But since we're all fans of a team from an institution of higher learning, let's not go crazy and dismiss facts. The definition of mass = resistance of an object to external forces. So, by the laws of physics, if a football player has more mass, he is better able to resist any hit he receives by a defender.
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That equation has zero to do with the actual discussion.
 
ghost2 said:
I think we need to be careful not to equate "absorbing blows" with injury propensity. Yes, a 300 lb man can take a hit better than a 150 lb man, but I think the point Chise is making is that adding weight/mass doesn't always correlate with injury reduction.
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Think Cam Newton - 6'5". 250-255 or Andrew Luck - 6'4" 245-250. Yea, they run a lot but have taken a pounding; especially in the shoulders. Then there's Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. 6' or so and around 210 and stayed relatively healthy. Even Brady as tall as he is and only around 225. You can see they've learned how to take a hit.
 
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