New Players & Upcoming Trip to France

[BWCD]

He does not have the body type to paint himself in the paint. Nothing wrong with him developing a midrange jumper.

I agree with your latter statement 1000%. A solid game 12-15 foot and in isn't too much to ask for Casey at this point. I'm not saying he can't develop a better long range game as time goes on, but it doesn't need to be his go-to (especially in big moments as I highlighted in this thread). And his body type isn't a banger down low like Omier for sure, but his athleticism and quickness at his size can be an advantage against bigger bodies if he'll spend some more time down there.

 

[BWCD]

Oh calm the f down

I'm calm. It's everyone else freaking out over an honest, backed up opinion of mine, and putting words in my mouth. I've posted on message boards since the early 00's. Nothing new.

 

[Geddy Lee]

I'm calm. It's everyone else freaking out over an honest, backed up opinion of mine, and putting words in my mouth. I've posted on message boards since the early 00's. Nothing new.

Ok congrats

 

[AtlAtty]

Let’s not argue When we are not disagreeing. We are just discussing what players need to do to improve, and what is in that player’s best interest.
We have a great coach under whose tutelage players take big jumps between year 1 and year 2. We all hope that Watson and Casey will be this year’s Wooga because if they are, UM is arguably the best team in the conference And top 10 overall.

 

[Geddy Lee]

Let’s not argue When we are not disagreeing. We are just discussing what players need to do to improve, and what is in that player’s best interest.
We have a great coach under whose tutelage players take big jumps between year 1 and year 2. We all hope that Watson and Casey will be this year’s Wooga because if they are, UM is arguably the best team in the conference And top 10 overall.

I just don't think it's fair to be concerned about a guy who has only played one year and averaged 6 minutes a game. Coach L will get him to where he needs to be.

 

[CanesHoopsman]

Not really. I saw flashes with Wooga that were promising as a FR, even if he was out of control at times as a FR (which is to be expected of a high energy wing like him).

The best way I can illustrate my concern with one quick story - I went to the ACC tourney, was there for the game vs Duke. We are late 2nd half down 1 after clawing our way back, Pack gets doubled off a ball screen, passes to Casey just to the left of the top of the key. Yes - Casey was wide open. He has Derek Lively flying at him on a late closeout...pump fake and go to the bucket would have been the better play...Duke was battling foul trouble and we had them on the ropes (Filipowski was under the bucket, for the record...another foul on him would've helped a bunch). Casey took and bricked a 3.

Yes, it was one play. Yes, he's a true FR. Yes, it was a big moment and even savvy players make the wrong choice. But we never got any closer than that 1-point margin in a big tournament game, and a true FR decided he needed to be the one to take that shot in that moment instead of Wong, Pack, Miller, etc. Here's video proof (time stamp = 58:14):



My concern isn't talent w/Casey, it's his on-court IQ and shot selection. He's young and will hopefully figure out his strengths and be able to apply them better. I'm hopeful, but concerned - and certanily not "writing him off" as you put it. Just honest criticism. Nothing wrong with that.

I 100% see your point but that’s a wide open 3. If L has him green lit to shoot that, it’s a good shot.

I think Casey needs a sport’s psychologist. He just seemed to look submissive and scared to make a mistake every time he touched the ball last year.

 

[hotshot]

I think it’s both for Wooga’s NBA prospects AND to stress the defense with a point who can drive and dunk against almost anyone running the high ball screen offense.

I mean IF his handle is up to it, Wooga at the point would be a matchup nightmare. But I think Watson, George, Casey or Nwoko need to be ready to make that work. I have a difficult time seeing Bens at wing…

If George isn't up to being a "Point Forward," think the big load of PG minutes goes to Bens this season.

Not impossible for Bens to make a developmental leap with his offense like Wooga did last year. Bens' shot isn't bad, just inconsistent, so there's always hope. In addition to a more consistent outside shot, I'd like to see him be more effective penetrating to the hoop. He's way behind what Wong could bring last season in that regard.

 

[Canesbro31]

Not really. I saw flashes with Wooga that were promising as a FR, even if he was out of control at times as a FR (which is to be expected of a high energy wing like him).

The best way I can illustrate my concern with one quick story - I went to the ACC tourney, was there for the game vs Duke. We are late 2nd half down 1 after clawing our way back, Pack gets doubled off a ball screen, passes to Casey just to the left of the top of the key. Yes - Casey was wide open. He has Derek Lively flying at him on a late closeout...pump fake and go to the bucket would have been the better play...Duke was battling foul trouble and we had them on the ropes (Filipowski was under the bucket, for the record...another foul on him would've helped a bunch). Casey took and bricked a 3.

Yes, it was one play. Yes, he's a true FR. Yes, it was a big moment and even savvy players make the wrong choice. But we never got any closer than that 1-point margin in a big tournament game, and a true FR decided he needed to be the one to take that shot in that moment instead of Wong, Pack, Miller, etc. Here's video proof (time stamp = 58:14):



My concern isn't talent w/Casey, it's his on-court IQ and shot selection. He's young and will hopefully figure out his strengths and be able to apply them better. I'm hopeful, but concerned - and certanily not "writing him off" as you put it. Just honest criticism. Nothing wrong with that.

That’s a shot you take 100/100 times he was wide open off a pick and pop. If you’re a D1 basketball player and your coach trusts you enough to be out there you take that shot every **** time

 

[AmherstCane]

That’s a shot you take 100/100 times he was wide open off a pick and pop. If you’re a D1 basketball player and your coach trusts you enough to be out there you take that shot every **** time

I rewatched the play… yeah I agree. Unless you’ve got a red light behind the arc you have to take that shot. The duke defender even hesitated on the close out… that’s definitely a shot you want even Casey to take. I don’t think Casey ends up with a better shot by putting the ball on the ground in that spot.

Also, Casey is a stretch 4. A stretch 4 has to take that shot. Period.

 

[EightiesCane]

If George isn't up to being a "Point Forward," think the big load of PG minutes goes to Bens this season.

Not impossible for Bens to make a developmental leap with his offense like Wooga did last year. Bens' shot isn't bad, just inconsistent, so there's always hope. In addition to a more consistent outside shot, I'd like to see him be more effective penetrating to the hoop. He's way behind what Wong could bring last season in that regard.

Bensley shoots almost 40% from 3.

 

[CanesHoopsman]

Bens gets a weird rap on this board. He played his role on last year’s team to near perfection. Answered the bell almost every time he was called upon, shot 40% from 3, made the occasional dribble drive dish or layup.

His role will now evolve and we have no reason not to think he’s up for it. I’m excited for him this year.

 

[BWCD]

I rewatched the play… yeah I agree. Unless you’ve got a red light behind the arc you have to take that shot. The duke defender even hesitated on the close out… that’s definitely a shot you want even Casey to take. I don’t think Casey ends up with a better shot by putting the ball on the ground in that spot.

Also, Casey is a stretch 4. A stretch 4 has to take that shot. Period.

That’s a shot you take 100/100 times he was wide open off a pick and pop. If you’re a D1 basketball player and your coach trusts you enough to be out there you take that shot every **** time

I just respectfully but vehemently disagree with you both. Basketball IQ says in that moment, you're down 1 in the conference semis. You have the ACC POY on the floor, and several other really good scoring options. With under 6 minutes to go in that situation and Duke being on their heels...is Casey shooting *that* shot REALLY the best thing? With Pack/Wong/Wooga/Miller on the floor? There was 13 left on the shot clock, by the way. It's not like he absolutely had to take that shot.

You can talk about L trusting him, you can talk about him being wide open D1 player, you can talk about him being a Stretch 4...

*Casey shot 10% from 3pt range last year per our official stats*:

His only make was in mop up duty against FAMU in the 2nd game of the season. Logic tells me that he shouldn't be taking many 3's, and it also tells me that the supposition that L trusts him with that shot is a faulty premise because I know L knows he was only 1/8 from 3 up until that Duke game. From 2pt range coming into that game? 8 of 13. That's 62%! Take Casey's name off of it...which is a better shot for Player X who shoots 13% from 3, or 62% from 2? Especially a 6'9 Freshman PF?

It's not like he's a great 3pt shooter that's been struggling but has license to take that shot. You ask Coach L in an interview if he was comfortable with that shot he's gonna be positive and support Casey which is the right thing for Coach L to do...but in the locker room and watching tape...you know that got questioned/called out.

If you're gonna claim "Stretch 4", yes - his body type is such and he has some guard skills...but *not in that moment*. Either give it up to someone else, or put the ball on the floor and try to get to the line. The more accurate claim is he's a *developing* Stretch 4. He's not there yet. Get his HS film out of your head for a moment...he has potential to be a good Stretch 4, but on the floor at that point in time? He's the small 5. This is what I mean about using his athleticism/quickness - put the ball on the floor, go to the rim, and at least draw the foul and look for the finish. I mean FFS...drive to draw the D and pick one of those other 4 guys to take a 3 instead?

I mean this all respectfully to each of you...but I've got valid reasons for my concern and for disagreement that Casey should've taken that shot. Especially being there and seeing it play out in person, it was super obvious that he didn't need to take that shot.

As I've mentioned in this thread, I'm confident L and the staff will work with him and Casey is super talented - he ought to develop nicely. But all I can judge him on up to this point is what he showed on the floor this year, and hope for his work and potential to meet up as early as this season. I think it will all come together, and I don't want it to be lost that I'm rooting for Casey to be a star for us...truly. Valid criticism doesn't automatically mean I'm rooting against him, somehow. He's gonna be a stud, but right now he's what's referred to as a puppy with big paws.

 

[Canesbro31]

I just respectfully but vehemently disagree with you both. Basketball IQ says in that moment, you're down 1 in the conference semis. You have the ACC POY on the floor, and several other really good scoring options. With under 6 minutes to go in that situation and Duke being on their heels...is Casey shooting *that* shot REALLY the best thing? With Pack/Wong/Wooga/Miller on the floor? There was 13 left on the shot clock, by the way. It's not like he absolutely had to take that shot.

You can talk about L trusting him, you can talk about him being wide open D1 player, you can talk about him being a Stretch 4...

*Casey shot 10% from 3pt range last year per our official stats*:

View attachment 248384

His only make was in mop up duty against FAMU in the 2nd game of the season. Logic tells me that he shouldn't be taking many 3's, and it also tells me that the supposition that L trusts him with that shot is a faulty premise because I know L knows he was only 1/8 from 3 up until that Duke game. From 2pt range coming into that game? 8 of 13. That's 62%! Take Casey's name off of it...which is a better shot for Player X who shoots 13% from 3, or 62% from 2? Especially a 6'9 Freshman PF?

It's not like he's a great 3pt shooter that's been struggling but has license to take that shot. You ask Coach L in an interview if he was comfortable with that shot he's gonna be positive and support Casey which is the right thing for Coach L to do...but in the locker room and watching tape...you know that got questioned/called out.

If you're gonna claim "Stretch 4", yes - his body type is such and he has some guard skills...but *not in that moment*. Either give it up to someone else, or put the ball on the floor and try to get to the line. The more accurate claim is he's a *developing* Stretch 4. He's not there yet. Get his HS film out of your head for a moment...he has potential to be a good Stretch 4, but on the floor at that point in time? He's the small 5. This is what I mean about using his athleticism/quickness - put the ball on the floor, go to the rim, and at least draw the foul and look for the finish. I mean FFS...drive to draw the D and pick one of those other 4 guys to take a 3 instead?

I mean this all respectfully to each of you...but I've got valid reasons for my concern and for disagreement that Casey should've taken that shot. Especially being there and seeing it play out in person, it was super obvious that he didn't need to take that shot.

As I've mentioned in this thread, I'm confident L and the staff will work with him and Casey is super talented - he ought to develop nicely. But all I can judge him on up to this point is what he showed on the floor this year, and hope for his work and potential to meet up as early as this season. I think it will all come together, and I don't want it to be lost that I'm rooting for Casey to be a star for us...truly. Valid criticism doesn't automatically mean I'm rooting against him, somehow. He's gonna be a stud, but right now he's what's referred to as a puppy with big paws.

No disrespect to you I understand your point that he’s 1/8 on the year and he hasn’t shown he can be a good 3 point shooter. But anyone who’s played basketball knows that when you’re in that moment you’re not thinking to yourself I’m shooting 10% from 3. It happens quick and when you get a look like that unless you’re a big who has been instructed not to shoot behind the arc, you shoot that every time. I would bet you coach L would’ve been more upset if he didn’t shoot that (as long as he doesn’t have a red light from deep).

 

[BWCD]

No disrespect to you I understand your point that he’s 1/8 on the year and he hasn’t shown he can be a good 3 point shooter. But anyone who’s played basketball knows that when you’re in that moment you’re not thinking to yourself I’m shooting 10% from 3. It happens quick and when you get a look like that unless you’re a big who has been instructed not to shoot behind the arc, you shoot that every time. I would bet you coach L would’ve been more upset if he didn’t shoot that (as long as he doesn’t have a red light from deep).

I get the nuance to your point as far as having a red light/green light. I don't think Coach L's nature is to give red lights to about anyone. ****...we've seen Tonye Jekiri jack up 3's in the past I can see your point about Coach L being upset if he didn't take it...I just think the nuance there is that Coach L's preference is probably for Casey to *not* take that shot in that specific moment...especially given the stats given and the other personnel on the floor.

I might be dogging Casey on this...but I also admire the balls/confidence it takes to pull the trigger there...that will serve him better as time goes on and he becomes more of an effective Stretch 4 and we're leaning on him to take big shots. I respect what you're saying regarding things happening fast...which is why it's hard for a true FR in that situation even if he's as talented as Casey is. I agree that you're not thinking about your stats either. All good points.

BUT

That takes me back to my overarching concern about basketball IQ with Casey. I know you and Amherst disagree w/me on the smart play there...but a better shot for Casey would've been going to the rim. Or at least driving past Likely (because Casey can dribble drive effectively with his skillset) and pulling up in front of Filipowski for a midrange shot instead, or going at Filipowski at the rim either one. This is a hill I can die on comfortably something inside the arc for Casey or a drive/kick is a much smarter play in that situation. I'm no elite basketball player like some of these message board legends, but I've played enough pickup and organized basketball both to know which shot is better for that player.

Good discussion - feels like friendly discussion at a tailgate between beers/shots. All respect.

 

[hotshot]

I rewatched the play… yeah I agree. Unless you’ve got a red light behind the arc you have to take that shot. The duke defender even hesitated on the close out… that’s definitely a shot you want even Casey to take. I don’t think Casey ends up with a better shot by putting the ball on the ground in that spot.

Also, Casey is a stretch 4. A stretch 4 has to take that shot. Period.

To be a legit Stretch 4 you have to be able to shoot, something Casey has yet to show us he is capable of.

 

[AmherstCane]

I get the nuance to your point as far as having a red light/green light. I don't think Coach L's nature is to give red lights to about anyone. ****...we've seen Tonye Jekiri jack up 3's in the past I can see your point about Coach L being upset if he didn't take it...I just think the nuance there is that Coach L's preference is probably for Casey to *not* take that shot in that specific moment...especially given the stats given and the other personnel on the floor.

I might be dogging Casey on this...but I also admire the balls/confidence it takes to pull the trigger there...that will serve him better as time goes on and he becomes more of an effective Stretch 4 and we're leaning on him to take big shots. I respect what you're saying regarding things happening fast...which is why it's hard for a true FR in that situation even if he's as talented as Casey is. I agree that you're not thinking about your stats either. All good points.

BUT

That takes me back to my overarching concern about basketball IQ with Casey. I know you and Amherst disagree w/me on the smart play there...but a better shot for Casey would've been going to the rim. Or at least driving past Likely (because Casey can dribble drive effectively with his skillset) and pulling up in front of Filipowski for a midrange shot instead, or going at Filipowski at the rim either one. This is a hill I can die on comfortably something inside the arc for Casey or a drive/kick is a much smarter play in that situation. I'm no elite basketball player like some of these message board legends, but I've played enough pickup and organized basketball both to know which shot is better for that player.

Good discussion - feels like friendly discussion at a tailgate between beers/shots. All respect.

I believe there is a 3 point shooting drill and players have to make a certain number to get a green light from three. At least that is what L used to do years ago.

Casey had a 3 point shot in high school and was recruited as a stretch 4.

Regarding that play… the perimeter defender (was it Lively) initially started to close and then hedged to defend the drive/pass. Also I think even Casey v. Filip 1v1 was big advantage Filip at that point in their respective careers.

 

[hotshot]

Casey had a 3 point shot in high school and was recruited as a stretch 4.

Not my recollection. I recall he was considered a good "finisher" close in but that his outside shot was still a work in progress. Could be wrong. Anyone know what % he shot on threes back in HS?

 

[Geddy Lee]

Not my recollection. I recall he was considered a good "finisher" close in but that his outside shot was still a work in progress. Could be wrong. Anyone know what % he shot on threes back in HS?

Senior year he was 15-47 from 3 going into the state semis. Went 0-1 in the state semis and 1-2 in the championship.

I just don't want him to turn into an Anthony Walker and take unnecessary threes when left wide open.

 

[ALLoverCANE]

I just respectfully but vehemently disagree with you both. Basketball IQ says in that moment, you're down 1 in the conference semis. You have the ACC POY on the floor, and several other really good scoring options. With under 6 minutes to go in that situation and Duke being on their heels...is Casey shooting *that* shot REALLY the best thing? With Pack/Wong/Wooga/Miller on the floor? There was 13 left on the shot clock, by the way. It's not like he absolutely had to take that shot.

You can talk about L trusting him, you can talk about him being wide open D1 player, you can talk about him being a Stretch 4...

*Casey shot 10% from 3pt range last year per our official stats*:

View attachment 248384

His only make was in mop up duty against FAMU in the 2nd game of the season. Logic tells me that he shouldn't be taking many 3's, and it also tells me that the supposition that L trusts him with that shot is a faulty premise because I know L knows he was only 1/8 from 3 up until that Duke game. From 2pt range coming into that game? 8 of 13. That's 62%! Take Casey's name off of it...which is a better shot for Player X who shoots 13% from 3, or 62% from 2? Especially a 6'9 Freshman PF?

It's not like he's a great 3pt shooter that's been struggling but has license to take that shot. You ask Coach L in an interview if he was comfortable with that shot he's gonna be positive and support Casey which is the right thing for Coach L to do...but in the locker room and watching tape...you know that got questioned/called out.

If you're gonna claim "Stretch 4", yes - his body type is such and he has some guard skills...but *not in that moment*. Either give it up to someone else, or put the ball on the floor and try to get to the line. The more accurate claim is he's a *developing* Stretch 4. He's not there yet. Get his HS film out of your head for a moment...he has potential to be a good Stretch 4, but on the floor at that point in time? He's the small 5. This is what I mean about using his athleticism/quickness - put the ball on the floor, go to the rim, and at least draw the foul and look for the finish. I mean FFS...drive to draw the D and pick one of those other 4 guys to take a 3 instead?

I mean this all respectfully to each of you...but I've got valid reasons for my concern and for disagreement that Casey should've taken that shot. Especially being there and seeing it play out in person, it was super obvious that he didn't need to take that shot.

As I've mentioned in this thread, I'm confident L and the staff will work with him and Casey is super talented - he ought to develop nicely. But all I can judge him on up to this point is what he showed on the floor this year, and hope for his work and potential to meet up as early as this season. I think it will all come together, and I don't want it to be lost that I'm rooting for Casey to be a star for us...truly. Valid criticism doesn't automatically mean I'm rooting against him, somehow. He's gonna be a stud, but right now he's what's referred to as a puppy with big paws.

Easy to say that in hindsight.

There were still 5 or 6 minutes left in the game and our stud 5 was out. We needed guys to step up and do things they don't normally do to have a chance. He was wide open and it was a rhythm shot. We weren't going to win the game getting 0 from him. I'd agree with you if it was in the final minute but there was plenty of time left. It was a reasonable gamble.

Being 1/8 previously is pretty irrelevant. That's a small sample size.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I love listening to Coach L

Wooga at the point in some sets? Has to be to move Pack off the ball to get him shots. But its also great for Wooga and his NBA prospects.

I'm gonna be honest on Wooga, and I've said this before.

The problem I have with Wooga as a ball handler is that he is very upright and has a high bounce. I've seen plenty of defenders who swipe at the ball when he bounces it high, and several steals.

Wooga has not developed the bend that Wong has, where he can dribble and advance the ball very low to the floor. That's how Wong is able to bob and weave his way through defenders, though he occasionally can mishandle the ball in some tight spots.

But Wooga's handle is very susceptible to steals. He can be a good decision-maker and passer and shooter, and he can bring the ball up when there is minimal pressure, but I'd trust Pack and Bens and others against a press defense more than I would with Wooga.

And I love Wooga's overall game. Just not his ball-handling.