Looking ahead

[Artist Formerly Known As]

No, he wasn't. I posted the stats. He had 2 fewer TDs, and averaged almost 3 yds/catch less in 2019 than in 2018. Sure, he had more catches and yards, but that's because he was their #1 receiver, while he was lower on our depth chart. ****, Dee Wiggins stats this year were not that far off Cager's. Osborn had more yards than Cager.

Cager was with us, and was for Georgia, a decent, serviceable receiver, nothing more. Not deserving of the hate when he was with us, but also not deserving of the false narrative that he turned into some sort of star for Georgia.

He played 9 games for Georgia out of 14. So he missed 1/3 of the season. Extrapolate his stats over that time frame, and he’s definitely more productive. I’d agree he wasn’t a star for either team, but he was closer to one at Georgia. Whether that was because of our poor coaching, Georgia’s coaching, or him is what should be debated.

 

[Ethnicsands]

People have been making this thread for 15 years. And 15 years later, we are still Top 3 in current NFL players.

You write this over and over, as if you haven’t noticed any of potential the flaws in your own refrain. Our nfl talent has waned massively. A few marginal guys don’t tell us anything about an overall roster. Our roster management = talent = mismanaged for 15 years. We consistently lack depth and experience, guys leave early, etc. And maybe, just maybe, a few nfl kids is a misleading metric entirely, and not what we should be recruiting for. And the results are awful. We got pounded like a **** newbie by FIU and LT. But you’re still talkimbout nfl whatever. Sorry, it isn’t adding up.

*I will come back to your next comment re nfl kids*

To answer your specific question, Rousseau and Jordan are All-American caliber players. Both have a legit claim as the best in the nation at their respective positions. That's a good place to start and a luxury most teams don't have.

You’ve lost perspective. Do you know how many kids would fit your definition of A-A ‘caliber’ if we went to all fan bases in the country? Plenty of teams have two kids who they can describe this way. A much more important question is how many actual first team all americans have we had the past decade? second team?

Beyond that (and looking only at upperclassmen), I would say Blades, Bolden, Hall, Harris, Mallory, Hedley and Scaife all have shown NFL tools. The DTs have a chance, and Phillips is a wild card. They need to do more, obviously, but they have time. None would project as Top 2 rounders right now. The young players are unknowns.

If ‘have a chance‘ is the standard, it’s a long list for all fan bases. Your bolded looks like the key point.

Does that stack up with Alabama or the 2001 Canes? Of course not. But the Coastal is a wasteland. These teams aren't producing even marginal NFL players at any kind of volume. Playing to our current talent level (Top 15 range) will allow us to win the Coastal consistently and recruit to the next talent level. But that would require improved performance from our head coach, our playcaller and our QB.

We agree better coaching is needed. The question remains whether our talent is as good as the nfl references would have some believe.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Very few of those guys were branded as studs at Miami. Most were considered JAGs or underachievers.

Not sure this matters at all or why you’d say so, but still, it’s not correct. The guys miami has on nfl rosters were amongst the higher recruits we have had over the past long while. It is at least skewed to better rated kids, as you would expect, averages being what they are. Whether some fans were disappointed in them at UM or not, they were pedigree kids for the most part, and the scouts saw it.

Here’s what I count, may have missed some:

2009 and earlier classes: Bailey, Gore, Olsen, Graham, Vernon, Calais C., Benjamin, L. Miller, Ray Ray Armstrong. All top recruits save hoops transfer graham, all top *athletes*

2010: Feliciano, Hurns, Linder, Walford. Linder was a 4*, Feliciano a good Stoutland eval. Credit to Randy on Walford and Hurns.

More recent (‘11 and since classes):

Defense:
5*: C. Thomas
4*: Bush, M. Jackson, J. Carter, J. Jackson, A. Burns, Grace, AQM, Chickillo, Elder
3*: Rayshawn, Jaquan, Redwine, Perryman, T. Harris, RJ, Pierre

Observations: pretty obvious the more talented athletes and higher rated kids are the ones with the higher hit rates judging by nfl rosters, at least on defense. Jaquan and Perryman were obvious to locals. RJ, Redwine and Harris earned it. Pierre was a good Dorito eval.

Offense/ Skill positions:
5*: Duke J.
4*: Berrios, Walton*
3*: Njoku, Dorsett, Homer, Herndon

Observations: small data set, WRs lacking, athletic differentiation seems to be the key. Njoku was a great athlete, Dorsett a burner (fastest 40 in his draft class, iirc), Herndon a jumbo athlete who we hit on

Offensive Line:
4*: Flowers, McDermott, St. Louis
3*: Isidora, Gauthier

Observations: Better rated kids did better, no surprise.

Not in the dataset: kickers. Transfers

 

[Ethnicsands]

The really tough question is what we *should* recruit for. If we wanted to maximize future NFL players, we’d heavily target raw potential athleticism. But that might be a bad way to build a winning college team. Conversely, we could target instincts, polish, skill at the expense of high ceiling for nfl, but the draft won’t be forgiving. if the goal is to win in college, we should be careful about using the nfl draft as the gold standard measure of our recruiting or eval capabilities. There isn’t a perfect answer here. It’s a balance, plus intangibles, roster balance, maturity, etc.

 

[Number1CanesFan]

No amount of observations of white sheep can disprove the existence of black sheep. So it is possible they are all great. We just have no reason to think so at this time.

Well, why don't we wait and see before we tear these kids down. A bunch of people thinking the grass is greener in the portal. It isn't. I'm high on TVD, but I doubt he can beat out any of the top 3 QBs on the roster in his 1st year. Throw him out there with the offensive line of last year and you'll be saying he sucks to.

 

[mackjones]

Roster strength:

Defense;
-S: Hall, Bolden, Carter, Frierson, K. Smith [Harrell, Balom, Washington]
-DB: Blades, Ivey, Couch, C. Williams [Clarke]
-LB: Brooks, Huff, McCloud, Joyner, Steed*, Jennings [TAC, Flagg]
-DE: Patchan, Phillips, Cam. Williams, Harvey, Rousseau [Chantz, QW]
-DT: Ford, Silvera, Miller, Blissett, Hunte, Holley [Moise, Roberts]

Notes: Seems okay. Thin at CB, unproven most places, decent talent and potential. Not top level but not a disaster. An injury to a CB would hurt. Need a LB to step up.

Offense:
- OT: Scaife, Herbert, Hillery, Nelson, ElGammel [Rivers, Washington]
-OG/C: Donaldson, Traore, Reed, Clark, Campbell, Gaynor
-TE: Jordan, Mallory, Polendey, Irvin, Hodges [Mammarelli]
-WR: Harley, Wiggins, Pope, Payton [Redding, Daz, Restreppo]
-RB: Harris, Burns [Chaney, Knighton]
-QB: JW, Perry, Tate, Matocha [TVD]
-P/K: Hedley, Baxa

Notes: OL is an issue. TE falls apart after top 2. WR unproven, some talent, lacks depth. RB has talent, but will rely on true frosh. QB missing. Kicker no bueno.

A new OC has to come on, find a QB, work with a bad OL, introduce a spread to a WR room with 4 returning guys, and rely on true frosh RBs. Anyone expecting a miracle here is right - it would tale a miracle.

Good news is next year’s schedule is the worst yet. Hot trash. As bad as we’ll be, no reason we shouldn’t be competitive in all games. Still, talent is unproven, thin and inexperienced. And culture and team commitment are questions. Guess: 6-6

It's the same ol' same with y'all Cane dudes. Because I heard the same worn out tune all summer and fall back in ' 19! And I'm mainly referring to the schedule crap and what not. Yeah. Miami was going to at least finish 9-3 because of the 19' schedule ( And was with questions on the O-line and at QB. ).

 

[Number1CanesFan]

Bullcrap. We all saw our QB fail miserably WHEN THEY HAD TIME. Yeah, our OL was brutal early on, but to act like they never gave our QBs time is pretty **** stupid. I guess it was the OLs fault Williams couldn't see one DB covering two WRs. It's also their fault for him running like an idiot when we needed to throw a hail mary. Come on. Of course we need our OL to improve, but if you think an improved OL is going to help our QBs between the ears, you are wrong.

By the way, half the sacks our QBs took were ON THEM. Hey look, I have time to run out of bounds and not get rid of the ball. So what if it's a loss of yardage when I can just throw it away because I am WAY outside of the pocket. Yeah, our football IQ at the QB position is garbage. Defend that crap all you want.

Oh really. I missed where the QB was holding the ball when Zion whiffed on his blocks multiple times. We're at the bottom of FBS in sacks, 3rd down conversions, and running game. Our offense is one-dimensional making it easier for the defense to defend the pass. We can't convert on 3rd down because we can't run the ball leaving us in 3rd and 7,8,9 which are low conversation yardages. Tell me how that doesn't matter? You expect a QB to get sacked 5 times in a row then throw dimes when the defense doesn't sack him. Time to throw has been inconsistent at best. QBs need to get into a rhythm. That doesn't happen when you're running for your life every other play.

Ask David Carr how that worked out for his career. My point is that you should save your criticism for when we have a decent offensive line. Then you can tear down every QB all you want.

 

[mackjones]

I think you overrate our talent. Let go of your star fetish. We have evaluated poorly. Too many of these guys aren’t that good. Sorry.

I second your notion. Too many of these SO-CALLED 4-Star HS player's were obviously HIGH BALLED, or is that overrated coming out of HS! Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[mackjones]

Oh, our coaching blows, no disagreement. I’m not contending that manny could succeed with a better roster. I’m just focusing on talent, because it matters, a lot. And not just measurables. Mindset, attitude.

One thing people here may have deluded themselves into ignoring is that we will ALWAYS have worse infrastructure than other big programs. And that includes support staff, trainers, S&C, nutritionists, analysts, etc. As a result, we need superior talent, not just comparable talent, to prevail. We used to have it. We clearly don’t any more.

Also, culture is our only response to infrastructure ... if we get it right. We haven’t. Much of that is on the staff, but it’s also a function of the kids in the room. Are we focusing on enough of the right type of kids?

People mock Clemson for having no OL who go to the nfl. I’d say that shows they’re focusing on other traits. Properly, judging by results.

Let’s stop talking about stars as if they prove our talent, when our evals have been poor.

And let’s stop pointing at a few marginal nfl kids as if they prove our talent, when our roster has been a disaster for a decade. Thin, incomplete, young, inexperienced, unbalanced, weak on the lines too often, bad QB, etc.

WORK ETHIC, too. Mr. Sanders Ethnicity.

 

[mackjones]

People have been making this thread for 15 years. And 15 years later, we are still Top 3 in current NFL players. Very few of those guys were branded as studs at Miami. Most were considered JAGs or underachievers.

To answer your specific question, Rousseau and Jordan are All-American caliber players. Both have a legit claim as the best in the nation at their respective positions. That's a good place to start and a luxury most teams don't have.

Beyond that (and looking only at upperclassmen), I would say Blades, Bolden, Hall, Harris, Mallory, Hedley and Scaife all have shown NFL tools. The DTs have a chance, and Phillips is a wild card. They need to do more, obviously, but they have time. None would project as Top 2 rounders right now. The young players are unknowns.

Does that stack up with Alabama or the 2001 Canes? Of course not. But the Coastal is a wasteland. These teams aren't producing even marginal NFL players at any kind of volume. Playing to our current talent level (Top 15 range) will allow us to win the Coastal consistently and recruit to the next talent level. But that would require improved performance from our head coach, our playcaller and our QB.

Mallory?????????????? Get the FUNK outta' here!

 

[Snug954]

I’m not debating coahing. We’re talking roster. The NFL will judge talent ether way. Who is a top 2 round kid on O?

Brev #9 is a possible. That’s about it bro...

 

[DMoney]

Not sure this matters at all or why you’d say so, but still, it’s not correct. The guys miami has on nfl rosters were amongst the higher recruits we have had over the past long while. It is at least skewed to better rated kids, as you would expect, averages being what they are. Whether some fans were disappointed in them at UM or not, they were pedigree kids for the most part, and the scouts saw it.

Here’s what I count, may have missed some:

2009 and earlier classes: Bailey, Gore, Olsen, Graham, Vernon, Calais C., Benjamin, L. Miller, Ray Ray Armstrong. All top recruits save hoops transfer graham, all top *athletes*

2010: Feliciano, Hurns, Linder, Walford. Linder was a 4*, Feliciano a good Stoutland eval. Credit to Randy on Walford and Hurns.

More recent (‘11 and since classes):

Defense:
5*: C. Thomas
4*: Bush, M. Jackson, J. Carter, J. Jackson, A. Burns, Grace, AQM, Chickillo, Elder
3*: Rayshawn, Jaquan, Redwine, Perryman, T. Harris, RJ, Pierre

Observations: pretty obvious the more talented athletes and higher rated kids are the ones with the higher hit rates judging by nfl rosters, at least on defense. Jaquan and Perryman were obvious to locals. RJ, Redwine and Harris earned it. Pierre was a good Dorito eval.

Offense/ Skill positions:
5*: Duke J.
4*: Berrios, Walton*
3*: Njoku, Dorsett, Homer, Herndon

Observations: small data set, WRs lacking, athletic differentiation seems to be the key. Njoku was a great athlete, Dorsett a burner (fastest 40 in his draft class, iirc), Herndon a jumbo athlete who we hit on

Offensive Line:
4*: Flowers, McDermott, St. Louis
3*: Isidora, Gauthier

Observations: Better rated kids did better, no surprise.

Not in the dataset: kickers. Transfers

You said “don’t tell me about star ratings” and then proceeded to make an entire post about star ratings.

The NFL data and recruiting data say the same thing. We’ve had the best recruiting class in the Coastal 12 out of 17 years. We’re currently 3rd nationally in NFL players. No other Coastal team is even close. We’re the only Coastal team with a positive blue-chip ratio. Again, no Coastal team is even close.

When I say that “many of our current NFL players were considered JAGs or underachievers,” I’m not talking about star ratings. I’m talking about how they were viewed at Miami. Time has shown they were better than that. I suspect history will continue to repeat itself.

 

[DMoney]

You’ve lost perspective. Do you know how many kids would fit your definition of A-A ‘caliber’ if we went to all fan bases in the country? Plenty of teams have two kids who they can describe this way.

Greg Rousseau and Brevin Jordan are stars anywhere.

What Coastal team has two players remotely close to those two? ****, tell me two players in the entire division on that level.

Perspective is important. You are making posts comparing us to the 2001 Canes. It’s better to compare our talent to the teams we play. We come out ahead in that comparison.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Greg Rousseau and Brevin Jordan are stars anywhere.

What Coastal team has two players remotely close to those two? ****, tell me two players in the entire division on that level.

Perspective is important. You are making posts comparing us to the 2001 Canes. It’s better to compare our talent to the teams we play. We come out ahead in that comparison.

Two kids.

Two.

We could debate whether there are two comparable kids on another coastal team. But why?

 

[ThomasM]

Oh really. I missed where the QB was holding the ball when Zion whiffed on his blocks multiple times. We're at the bottom of FBS in sacks, 3rd down conversions, and running game. Our offense is one-dimensional making it easier for the defense to defend the pass. We can't convert on 3rd down because we can't run the ball leaving us in 3rd and 7,8,9 which are low conversation yardages. Tell me how that doesn't matter? You expect a QB to get sacked 5 times in a row then throw dimes when the defense doesn't sack him. Time to throw has been inconsistent at best. QBs need to get into a rhythm. That doesn't happen when you're running for your life every other play.

Ask David Carr how that worked out for his career. My point is that you should save your criticism for when we have a decent offensive line. Then you can tear down every QB all you want.

They were not running for their life every other play. Enough hyperbole already.

As for the OL, they are cut from the same cloth as the QBs. All guys that dominated in high school because of their measureables. They can't do that at this level, and they are lost because of it. They are all having a hard time learning, and that's why they all look the same today as the day they arrived.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Well, why don't we wait and see before we tear these kids down. A bunch of people thinking the grass is greener in the portal. It isn't. I'm high on TVD, but I doubt he can beat out any of the top 3 QBs on the roster in his 1st year. Throw him out there with the offensive line of last year and you'll be saying he sucks to.

I’m not tearing kids down. This is a discussion board. It’s the off season. We discuss. *shrugs*

 

[DMoney]

We could debate whether there are two comparable kids on another coastal team. But why?

If there is an argument to the contrary, please make it. I don’t think there is a debate.

And it’s deeper than those two kids. That’s why blue-chip ratio is important. We have the most talented roster in the Coastal by a mile.

Miami is like a dude who’s a 7 or 8 lookswise but is still a virgin. He may not be a model, but looks aren’t his problem.

 

[kyle_schick]

Mallory is not a tight end. Can the coaches please realize this and play him at WR.

 

[Ethnicsands]

If there is an argument to the contrary, please make it. I don’t think there is a debate.

And it’s deeper than those two kids. That’s why blue-chip ratio is important. We have the most talented roster in the Coastal by a mile.

Miami is like a dude who’s a 7 or 8 lookswise but is still a virgin. He may not be a model, but looks aren’t his problem.

An argument to the contrary on two kids? That’s an odd proposition. Two kids doesn’t prove anything. [Incidentally, Pitt has two first team all ACC defenders and an all ACC OL returning, along with a second team all ACC defender. I am sure they’re excited about that.]

So you expand from two kids to your blue chip ratio, but the problem is, that just returns the discussion to regurgitated recruiting rankings. I’m well aware of our recruiting rankings. The question remains, have we evaluated well or poorly. If we’ve evaluated poorly, our talent will lag our rankings.

You’re insisting on a comparison to talent in a weak division. I haven’t suggested we’re less talented than our division peers, though I have asked whether the assumption we are way more talented than them all is valid. By the rankins, we *should* be much more talented than them. What we have seen on field suggests otherwise, but we will see. Hopefully a new OC will magically get our talent playing like it was rated to be capable of playing.

 

[Ethnicsands]

You said “don’t tell me about star ratings” and then proceeded to make an entire post about star ratings.

The NFL data and recruiting data say the same thing. We’ve had the best recruiting class in the Coastal 12 out of 17 years. We’re currently 3rd nationally in NFL players. No other Coastal team is even close. We’re the only Coastal team with a positive blue-chip ratio. Again, no Coastal team is even close.

When I say that “many of our current NFL players were considered JAGs or underachievers,” I’m not talking about star ratings. I’m talking about how they were viewed at Miami. Time has shown they were better than that. I suspect history will continue to repeat itself.

I responded to your comment on nfl kids. I took your comment to mean they were our diamonds in the rough. My mistake - Apparently you just meant they were under-appreciated by fans at UM. Not surprised - That is what happens when results lag exectations.

As for blue chip ratio, let’s hope we evaluated well enough for that to be the right measure of our talent.

One note - blue chip ratio is based on signings, iirc, not on kids we actually roll with. This leads to some obvious flaws. If we do a bad job keeping talented kids in the program, we will have less talent than the signing ratio would imply. And if we evaluate poorly, same. It’s just an example, but when we wind up rolling with a true frosh 2* LT not because he’s great but because our older, 4* kids cannot contribute, the blue chip ratio at OL is clearly misleading as a measure of talent. Hopefully it is more accurate elsewhere.