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If you want Butch, why wouldn't you want Larry Fedora?

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Thread Killa said:
Butch Davis vs NC St. at UNC: 0-4
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Butch at MIAMI 11-1, state champions and robbed of national title. His team won and went to subsequent back to back titles. All of you know **** well, if he stayed he's winning those and none of you would be spouting off the most retarded **** I've ever read like Fedora (who everyone utterly bashed as a corch prior to this year) is better than him.
LMAO
 
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duke4heisman said:
The Franchise said:
Thread Killa said:
Butch Davis vs NC St. at UNC: 0-4
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Ouch. That's as bad as his 1-5 record against Flubberneck when he built Vag Tech into a legit program allowing them to own UM.
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Nice try. Miami was down 31 scholarships while flubberneck was winning and competing for national titles with Micheal Vick.
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He conveniently leaves that out, but has told us a hundred times that Fedora had to recruit under a cloud.
 
Butch Davis: 15-17 in ACC games, achieved career high 4 ACC wins 3x

Randy Shannon: 16-16 in ACC games, achieved career high 5 ACC wins 2x

Al Golden: 17-18 in ACC games, achieved career high 5 ACC wins 2x



Larry Fedora: 19-11 in ACC games, achieved career high 6 ACC wins 1x, 5 wins 1x, 4 wins 2x
 
Thread Killa said:
Butch Davis: 15-17 in ACC games, achieved career high 4 ACC wins 3x

Randy Shannon: 16-16 in ACC games, achieved career high 5 ACC wins 2x

Al Golden: 17-18 in ACC games, achieved career high 5 ACC wins 2x



Larry Fedora: 19-11 in ACC games, achieved career high 6 ACC wins 1x, 5 wins 1x, 4 wins 2x
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So you just proved that Al Golden is better than Butch Davis.

Wish I had seen this sooner. Now my mind is changed.
 
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canefan said:
LOL at Franchise advocating for a corch who lost to a 6-7 corched Al Golden team 47-20 in year 3 of his taking over the program. That game was over by the 1st quarter.
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he didn't lose


he got blown the *** out
 
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The Franchise said:
LuCane said:
The Franchise said:
LuCane said:
The Franchise said:
I just gave you more reasons why I think Fedora is better than Butch. You just ignored them and focused on the fact that Fedora is doing better at the same program.

And, yes, I did use a cloud argument in Fedora's favor. Do you think it's easier to recruit and build a program at UNC with no investigation (Davis) or while under a constant investigation and under actual sanctions (Fedora)? Just because Folden wore out that cloud **** doesn't mean that there's zero legitimacy to the effects of constant NCAA investigations and actual sanctions.
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From what I can read, and just re-read, your additional reasons are that (1) you don't think Butch would be able to do what Fedora did at his prior stop (not difficult to argue that Fedora might not be able to to do what Butch has done at his prior stops), the fact that (2) he's a good offensive coach that can light it up, which isn't being debated (not difficult to say Butch has a history of defensive prowess), and that (3) he apparently fires assistants when they're not working (which Butch has done the same). They weren't ignored. I actually mentioned them in my post. I guess I expected more. I don't consider those definitive reasons why one is better than the other. And, I'm not saying it's so crazy that it shouldn't be discussed.

The Cloud thing is questionable, at best, because you're one of the hardest (rightfully so, I've thought) on Golden for using his "cloud," which was arguably worse than the one you're using in support of Fedora.
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I was against using the cloud as an excuse for losing games to teams that we have more talent than. I'd be against using it for that same reason to justify Fedora losing games to teams he has more talent than. However, it would be disingenuous for you to argue that Fedora has been building UNC's program under the same circumstances that Davis was when he was there.

And I don't think UNC's "cloud" is less daunting than UM's considering it's still going to this date and that their actual sanctions were worse.
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Davis took over a complete **** team and program. We can agree on that, no?
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He took over a UNC team that was 14-21 over the previous 3 seasons. And he took over a team with some pretty good veteran players on it. Pretty sure there were 9 guys eventually drafted to the NFL off the team he inherited including studs like Kentwan Balmer, Hakeem Nicks, Brandon Tate, Brooks Foster, Richard Quinn, Cam Thomas.

So, it wasn't a great team, but it was far from this total reclamation project of a complete **** team/program. It was a pretty typical program where the HC gets fired for underachieving.
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A pretty typical program where the HC gets fired for underachieving? He took over a team that had won 3 games the year before. Those three victories came against Furman, a 3 win NC State team and a 1 win Duke team. His top offensive players - from QB to RB to WR - were all Frosh and Soph. His top 3 RBs were Frosh, as just one example.

We get it: you've moved away from your previous support of Butch Davis.
 
You guys do your best to ignore the fact that butch most talented players especially on defense was suspended for the year that you claimed he under achieved
 
terdferguson said:
Let's be realistic about Butch. His biggest attribute is his recruiting. We all know that. He put together one of the best collections of talent in the history of the game at Miami. So now, the two important questions are: 1. How replicable is that? 2. How would Butch perform with anything less than the best collection of talent in ncaa history?

1. The answer is not very replicable. To assemble that kind of talent takes skill but also some level of luck. It's not just a matter of locking down south florida as many prominent players on those teams were from other areas of the state and out of state. Butch can recruit and recruit at a high level. I have no doubt that he would do very well at upgrading the talent on our roster. But the odds of stockpiling "best in history of the game" talent a second time would be low.

2. If Butch were to have very good talent but not best of all time talent, how would he do? Well, we have the unc years to look at as well as some years at Miami like 98 and 99. When you examine those years there is no doubt that there's more games where Butch lost to less talented teams than there are games where he defeated teams with more talent.

Conclusion: Butch would certainly upgrade the talent level on our roster but odds are against him assembling a best of all time talented team again. In addition, there is no evidence to suggest that Butch can compete at the very highest level of college football without a roster that is historically talented. Therefore the most likely outcome of a Butch hire is that he makes us better but would not bring us to the national championship level.
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Great post, I was thinking of writing something up on exactly your first point. Just to expand a little, not only did it, in all likelihood, require a bit of luck, but the assembling of that juggernaut roster, I contend, would not be achievable today. Today CFB is a cash cow with top athletic departments pumping huge amounts of money into their football programs. There are (more) open camps, there is social media, the internet (quick availability of highlights that was in a primitive or nonexistent form during the Butch years, I think he even said as much in the U part 2 when he talked about watching film from video tapes), and whole businesses geared toward ranking and identifying top recruits.

Do some still fall threw the cracks? Of course, but technology and money as well as better evaluating methods have made the process of identifying recruits much more visible and transparent. A lot of Butch's success came from not only locking down big names but also identifying those that were slighted and undervalued given the aforementioned realities/deficiencies of the 90's.

And lastly, Butch is inheriting the weakest Miami program in the 35 years. Miami has lost its defining allure as people have copied our swagger and are actually winning football games. We are irrelevant, an afterthought, we no longer command a modicum of respect in the CFB world. But not only has our program gotten weaker, the competition has become a lot more fierce. Programs like Alabama, Fl. State, Florida, etc. are are relevant and winning, but more importantly they have huge infrastructure advantages that help neutralize the playing field. They have whole staffs, due to their huge football budget, only focused on building connections with high schools and identifying talent.

Butch is still a fierce competitor, a very good recruiter, an excellent motivator, and with the right staff he can field good teams, but that huge talent disparity he relied on to win games won't be attainable to the degree to which he had in the 90's. In my opinion, he himself will have to be a better coach and his coordinators will have to be dam good coaches if we are to compete at a high level under Davis because he won't be able to reproduce that level of talent.
 
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Reshon52ap said:
You guys do your best to ignore the fact that butch most talented players especially on defense was suspended for the year that you claimed he under achieved
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You're doing your best to ignore that 2009 was his 3rd year, and the suspensions were in 2010 ...

He underachied in 2009. Team started the season ranked, and finished the season unranked.
 
MIATL said:
Rellyrell said:
MIATL said:
Easy answer to the Butch vs. Fedora debate:

Would UNC give up Fedora to get Butch back?

I'm guessing they wouldn't ...

If they wouldn't trade Fedora for Butch, that would suggest they view Fedora as the better coach ...
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Lol...you guys KILL me. Ok, so how many are casual football fans vs. Canes fans on here? So Larry is better than Butch, b/c in year four against a powder puff schedule he's 9-1? Let's go down his history b/4 we crown him:

In year one he started off 8-4...not bad for a first year coach taking over a mess, but in year two he went to 7-6, and then in year three he went to 6-7. But now that's he's 9-1 we should hire him?? Could it be that the 9-1 is very similar to when Miami started off 7-0 in 2013?

Game one, L to a bad USCe team
Game two, blow out to out their brethren UNC...A&T
Game three, blow out of Illinois (we know the problems they are having there)
Game four, blow out of the mighty Delaware Fighting Blue Hens
Game five, win against an overrated, back to earth GT team
Game six, blow out against their other basketball arch rival, Wake Forest
Game seven, win against the UVA Cavaliers
Game eight, win against an up and coming Pitt team
Game nine, win against a spiraling Duke team
Game ten, win against us

So out of the 9 wins, 2 of them came at the expense of 2 FCS teams and the other 7 came at the expense of teams who compiled a 47% winning pct.

How many ranked teams have Fedora beat this year? How many ranked teams have Fedora played this year?

You can't even compare the two in coaching abilities. Butch had #8 LSU, #16 FSU, #15 VT and #25 NC State on the schedule, this w/ 13 impactful players missing from his roster!

Some of will go to great lengths to try to trash Butch and you STILL haven't learned your lesson from when he was here. Is it b/c he made us all out to look bad for calling for his head? Is it b/c it took him 5 years to finally get us back to being the bullies on the block? Or is it b/c he left when he was building a dynasty in the making and you resent him b/c now look at us?

Whatever it is, get over it. You don't need to try to put him down by elevating a corch who's doing a good job against a weak schedule.
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You're taking this way too personally ...

I'll make it clear for you:

I don't resent Butch. I just don't think he's as good a HC TODAY as he was 10-20 years ago. I think Butch is on the descent, and I think Fedora is on the ascent.

Doesn't mean I think Butch was terrible, or a failure. I just think he's past his prime.

Still built the greatest team of all-time. I'm not knocking what he did at UM.

But his time at UNC wasn't that special ... Considering what Mack Brown did, and what Fedora is doing. Clearly, good coaches can win there ... And win at a high level. Butch never did that ... And he was there 5 years ago ...
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bruh....everything you try to do is discredit Butch's coaching ability while here and you continue to bring up his stint at UNC...sounds like you're taking it personal, homeboy.
 
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