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If you ever thought the hate wasn't real...

Canesfan_134 said:
I think Dre was better he’s the best WR we’ve ever had IMO including Michael Irvin and the others. Nothing away from Santana and Reggie but that’s just my opinion.
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Are you talking about college and the pro's?

College, hes borderline top 5 here alone.

He sure as **** isn't on Irvin or Tana.
 
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Echtcane said:
No, I don't. Vince Young is one of the most overrated overhyped QBs in college football history and people everywhere have swallowed the Koolaid. Almost all of it rests on one game (USC) and the media's subsequent orgasmic agenda over it. Without that game, he would have been mostly forgotten along with all the other QBs that were decent but not great. Manziel was a FAR better college QB. Manziel had more passing yards every season than Young did in ANY season. He threw 19 more TDs in 2 seasons than Young did in 3. His completion % was significantly better than Young's every year. Combining their last 2 college seasons, Manziel had more rushing yards and rushing TDs than Young.

And consider who surrounded those 2 QBs and who the competition was. How did each team recruit in the 4 years prior to their starts? Manziel played with teammates ranked 12, 16, 34, 16. Young's surrounding cast? 1, 2, 4, 1. And what kind of competition did they face? Manziel played in the SEC. Young had to face those oh-so-formidable Big 12 defenses while surrounded by the nation's most talented team. All those advantages handed to him and he couldn't touch Manziel's stats.
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Manziel benefitted from playing in Kevin Sumlin’s/Kliff Kingsbury system.

And you’re making an argument as if TAMU was completely devoid of talent
- Mike Evans
- Jake Matthews
- Cedric Ogbuehi
- Ryan Swope
- Christine Michael
- Damontre Moore
- Luke Joeckel
- Germain Ifedi

He played with an ELITE All-Pro WR & had 6 NFL OLineman around him, it’s not like he was playing at UTEP lol.
 
Memnon said:
Manziel benefitted from playing in Kevin Sumlin’s/Kliff Kingsbury system.

And you’re making an argument as if TAMU was completely devoid of talent
- Mike Evans
- Jake Matthews
- Cedric Ogbuehi
- Ryan Swope
- Christine Michael
- Damontre Moore
- Luke Joeckel
- Germain Ifedi

He played with an ELITE All-Pro WR & had 6 NFL OLineman around him, it’s not like he was playing at UTEP lol.
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Some good players in places no doubt, but being elite requires 22 starters + quality depth and it's clear that Texas having classes of 1, 2, 4, & 1 gave Young quite an advantage, especially you would think, in the Big 12. Manziel didn't do it all himself either, but classes of 12, 16, 34, 16 are going to have some real limitations. Despite all that, I remember seeing the games. He was absolutely spectacular at times and did it in a tougher conference. Sumlin never again reached the heights he did under Manziel. Credit to coaches for knowing how to use him though.
 
Echtcane said:
Some good players in places no doubt, but being elite requires 22 starters + quality depth and it's clear that Texas having classes of 1, 2, 4, & 1 gave Young quite an advantage, especially you would think, in the Big 12. Manziel didn't do it all himself either, but classes of 12, 16, 34, 16 are going to have some real limitations. Despite all that, I remember seeing the games. He was absolutely spectacular at times and did it in a tougher conference. Sumlin never again reached the heights he did under Manziel. Credit to coaches for knowing how to use him though.
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Vince Young single handed won the National Championship. The closest Manziel got was a 11-2 season. That right there takes the cake.
 
JgDaCane said:
Don't really get the Manziel hate. Besides that its a **** list.
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Because he regressed from his sophomore year to his junior year and his team ended up 9-4, losing to every ranked team it played outside of a bowl game with Duke. I struggle to see a QB being a Top20 all-time talent when he could barely beat a ranked team his junior year.

I also struggle to classify guys as a top20 all-time player when they were a 1-year wonder. Cam Newton was great in 1 year with 50 TDs......but it was one year. Guys didn't have the ability to gameplan for him the following year and he showed nothing before that. Burrow struggled mightily the year before his historic season. Manziel was awesome as a sophomore.....but then regressed. TVD was great for a year. Is his career identified by that year or last year?
 
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Canesfan_134 said:
QB - Vince Young (but one of my favs), Tommie Frazier (HM), Michael Vick (another one of my favs), Matt Leinart, Trevor Lawrence, Payton Manning, Sam Bradford......To many greats: Drew Brees, John Elway, Ty Detmer, Ken Dorsey, Andrew Luck, Charlie Ward, Case Keenum, Lamar Jackson, Graham Harrell, Dan Marino
RB - Reggie Bush, Adrian Peterson, Herschel Walker, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, Ladainian Tomlinson, Ricky Williams.....To many greats really: OJ, Archie Griffin, Tony Dorsett, Ron Dayne, Marcus Allen, Jim Brown
AP - Percy Harvin, Tavon Austin
WR - Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald, Peter Warrick, Andre Johnson, Michael Crabtree, Calvin Johnson....To many greats again: Ryan Broyles, Justin Blackman, Braylon Edwards, Torry Holt, Michael Irvin
TE - Kellen Winslow Jr, Jeremy Shockey, Jermaine Gresham, Chase Coffman
OL - Orlando Pace, Bryant McKinnie, Anthony Munoz?, Barrett Jones, Joe Thomas

DE - Derrick Thomas, Julius Peppers, Jadeveon Clowney, Terrell Suggs, Von Miller, Dwight Freeney, David Pollack
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Warren Sapp, Jerome Brown, Tommie Harris?, John Henderson?
LB - Lawrence Taylor, Dan Morgan, LaVar Arrington, Marvin Jones, Patrick Willis?, Luke Kuechly
Ray Lewis (based on talent but didn’t win the awards or a championship during his time here.)
CB - Charles Woodson, Deion Sanders, Champ Bailey, Pat P
S - Sean Taylor, Ed Reed, Eric Berry, Roy Williams

Return Specialist - Devin Hester
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My list..........

@Brooklyndee throw up your top 10 overall...........
 
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Echtcane said:
Some good players in places no doubt, but being elite requires 22 starters + quality depth and it's clear that Texas having classes of 1, 2, 4, & 1 gave Young quite an advantage, especially you would think, in the Big 12. Manziel didn't do it all himself either, but classes of 12, 16, 34, 16 are going to have some real limitations. Despite all that, I remember seeing the games. He was absolutely spectacular at times and did it in a tougher conference. Sumlin never again reached the heights he did under Manziel. Credit to coaches for knowing how to use him though.
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Case Keenum threw for 19,000+ yards under Sumlin at Houston

What exactly did Manziel do after he left Sumlin?
 
Is the list anti Pitt because it omitted Dorsett and Marino?

This is a pretty weak case for anti UM bias.

Besides, I'm not worried about some random list maker being anti UM. I'm worried about the admin being anti UM.
 
AndreiVasy88 said:
Vince Young single handed won the National Championship. The closest Manziel got was a 11-2 season. That right there takes the cake.
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He didn't "single handedly" do any such thing. The fact is that he played on the most talented team in college football at the time. He did play extremely well in one game. That does not determine whether one should be on an all time great list. 11-2? Like I pointed out, Manziel played in the SEC on a team with talent ranked 12, 16, 34, 16.

Mac Jones won the national championship too. On a team with talent rankings almost identical to Vince Young's team. And his QB stats, yds, tds, ints, qbr, etc. absolutely blow away anything Young ever did. I don't see him on the list or anyone here advocating it.
 
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plantcity3 said:
My list..........

@Brooklyndee throw up your top 10 overall...........
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That is **** near an impossible task... I guess if I have to then in no order I'll go Bo, Lawrence Taylor or Derrick, Sean Taylor or Lott, Either Tomlinson or Faulk, either Ray or arrington or Bosworth, suh or warren or Russell, Jim brown or Herschel, Deion, champ or Charles, & either elway or Payton I guess. I know I left hundreds of names or that could be in that argument. But great if the moment that's what I'll go with
 
Echtcane said:
He didn't "single handedly" do any such thing. The fact is that he played on the most talented team in college football at the time. He did play extremely well in one game. That does not determine whether one should be on an all time great list. 11-2? Like I pointed out, Manziel played in the SEC on a team with talent ranked 12, 16, 34, 16.

Mac Jones won the national championship too. On a team with talent rankings almost identical to Vince Young's team. And his QB stats, yds, tds, ints, qbr, etc. absolutely blow away anything Young ever did. I don't see him on the list or anyone here advocating it.
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Oh so 200 yards on the ground with 3 tds and almost 300 yards passing isn't single handed taking over the game? I'm not including him on an all time great list. I'm just saying I would take him over Manziel in college.
 
AndreiVasy88 said:
Oh so 200 yards on the ground with 3 tds and almost 300 yards passing isn't single handed taking over the game? I'm not including him on an all time great list. I'm just saying I would take him over Manziel in college.
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**** I'd take him over Manziel on this list, too.
 
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AndreiVasy88 said:
Oh so 200 yards on the ground with 3 tds and almost 300 yards passing isn't single handed taking over the game? I'm not including him on an all time great list. I'm just saying I would take him over Manziel in college.
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That's a little like Manziel's 562-yd 3 td passing, 2 td rushing against #1 Alabama - or as you would call it, "single handed taking over the game." That year he became the 5th player in NCAA history to pass for 3000 and rush for 1,000 -- doing it 2 games faster than any of those other players. But again, go back and look at his entire 2-year QB stats. It's just better than Young in just about every way playing on a less talented team going against stronger competition. The media has relentlessly created a myth around VY that just isn't backed up by the data.
 
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Echtcane said:
He's gonna be right beside Vince Young and Ryan Leaf in the NFL HOF, lol.

They each had their (different) issues afterward
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Vince Young
- 31-18 W/L
- 2x Pro Bowls
- Rookie of the Year
- 8,964yds 46TD’s & 51INT’s Passing
- 1,459yds & 12TD’s Rushing

Johnny Manziel
- 10-22 W/L
- 2,965yds 12TD’s & 14INT’s Passing
- 474yds & 1TD Rushing

Manziel was also hot garbage in the CFL.
 
LMAO. Here's the new list:

1-8. Ed Reed;
9-15. Barry Sanders;
16-20. Randy Moss
 
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