"I Need Ya' Supervisor!!!"

BoxingRobes

Junior
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,981
Ok then let's discuss the systemic and contextual issues. Go.
This thread has already been exhausted with Blue Lives Matter v. Black Lives Matter.

That is a discussion we can have another day and not in this thread. As long as you can acknowledge there are systemic issues within the interaction between police and the general population, in particular African Americans, I think we can just leave it at that. CanesInsight is not going to solve this problem and none of us are getting paid to fix it. But, we should at least be able to say there are some issues here.
 

Cane_lover

Recruit
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
168
I don't know what your race is...and its not important. But, statistics show that (depending on the study...I don't want to get in the deep end of minutiae of this discussion) that at least one out of every three African Americans have no trust in police officers at all. Without checking for a specific link, to my best recollection, its something like three out of four African Americans believe police will wrongly arrest them. If you're a police officer, and you don't understand the context of the situation, you've already fucked up. That little white officer confronting a 6'6" black man is a recipe for disaster before they are even introduced to one another.

If you don't think race is an issue at the foundation of this discussion, then we can't have a discussion because we are going to disagree throughout. Malik McDowell's actions look like a dude that was in fear for his life. Asking for another officer to be there, getting up and walking into the store (likely because he's not a dummy and knows there will be a camera in there). The police officer tased a man that was on the ground showing his hands...if you're a 6'6" black man, you know whats coming next.

I'm not saying what McDowell did was right...he's not. But that doesn't mean the police officer should not have approached and communicated to the man differently. That isn't to say that the officer is in the wrong either...but if he's "the boss" in that situation, perhaps he should have done better de-escalate the situation. As I said in an earlier post...its a sh!tty situation for both individuals involved here.
Is there a chart that clearly identifies height/weight/race for officers to use so that they know who they can/can’t pull over? Maybe they could use the QB wristbands and just keep the chart on them at all times. Or maybe, just maybe, they could pull people over regardless of race, height, or weight that are breaking the law and hold them accountable for their actions.

I think a citizen that is refusing to comply with a police officer and walking into a store is a red flag. What are their intentions in the store? Now you have someone who won’t comply walking into a store with innocent bystanders? Seems like McDowell should learn to give his license and registration to me.
 

BoxingRobes

Junior
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,981
Is there a chart that clearly identifies height/weight/race for officers to use so that they know who they can/can’t pull over? Maybe they could use the QB wristbands and just keep the chart on them at all times. Or maybe, just maybe, they could pull people over regardless of race, height, or weight that are breaking the law and hold them accountable for their actions.

I think a citizen that is refusing to comply with a police officer and walking into a store is a red flag. What are their intentions in the store? Now you have someone who won’t comply walking into a store with innocent bystanders? Seems like McDowell should learn to give his license and registration to me.
Sounds great in a world where something like this doesn't exist. I hate to use Vox, but whatever.

 

Moonman

The Total Package
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
197
As long as you can acknowledge there are systemic issues within the interaction between police and the general population, in particular African Americans,
I need to know what I'm acknowledging. I'm not trying to play gotcha games. I interact in an official capacity with law enforcement every single day. As a member of a combat arms unit in the military, I have several brothers in arms who are LEO. I have immediate family who are LEO. I want to understand what the issues are because they directly affect many of the people I love. So, what are we talking about?
 

BoxingRobes

Junior
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,981
I need to know what I'm acknowledging. I'm not trying to play gotcha games. I interact in an official capacity with law enforcement every single day. As a member of a combat arms unit in the military, I have several brothers in arms who are LEO. I have immediate family who are LEO. I want to understand what the issues are because they directly affect many of the people I love. So, what are we talking about?
Police training in nonviolent situations - in this particular situation the OP presents...the officer lost the high ground the minute he pulled the trigger on that taser on a man who was sitting down showing his hands. It turned a nonviolent situation into a violent one that was dangerous for all parties. I don't blame the officer so much as I do the training and procedure.

Uniformity in standards for "brutality"
Minimal consequences for misconduct
Minorities targeted at higher rates
Culturally...police are less servants of the public, more militarized - extend this to police not being active in the neighborhoods in which they live
Unreported misconduct by police -- https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf

A quick blog by a former officer that acknowledges issues -- https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/honoring-police-includes-acknowledging-systemic

This could be a much longer discussion...I'm just going to stop there.
 
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PCBcanefan

99 problems but FSU ain’t 1
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Messages
623
Bruh, I see/saw all of that. I do not want police officers dying for doing their job. I’m just saying that he could’ve waited; made the situation safer for an arrest. McDowell could’ve killed him. And, I believe it happened because he was pissed McDowell left his car. I’m just saying there was no “obvious” danger in McDowell entering the store.
How does the officer know there is no obvious danger when entering the store? Or how do you know? He doesn't know who he is at the time, and also doesn't know what he will do or is capable of doing. He goes into the store and to me that can easily escalate the situation. One, he is now out of your site for a moment of time and back is turned. Can easily pull a weapon out. Two, now there can possibly be more innocent people involved in the situation. The LEO doesn't know his plan for entering the store, for all he knows he could be looking for hostages. Three, now he would be letting the alleged criminal feel like they are in control of the situation, which could turn out to be real bad for the LEO.

The thing is, it was probably going to be simple citation for speeding or unsafe driving due to road conditions. Why did he have to act a fool and escalate the situation? Should of handed over his info, paid his ticket and continued on with his life.
 

PCBcanefan

99 problems but FSU ain’t 1
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Messages
623
Police training in nonviolent situations - in this particular situation the OP presents...the officer lost the high ground the minute he pulled the trigger on that taser on a man who was sitting down showing his hands. It turned a nonviolent situation into a violent one that was dangerous for all parties. I don't blame the officer so much as I do the training and procedure.

Uniformity in standards for "brutality"
Minimal consequences for misconduct
Minorities targeted at higher rates
Culturally...police are less servants of the public, more militarized - extend this to police not being active in the neighborhoods in which they live
Unreported misconduct by police -- https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf

A quick blog by a former officer that acknowledges issues -- https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/honoring-police-includes-acknowledging-systemic

This could be a much longer discussion...I'm just going to stop there.
Wasn't it violent already, since he was sitting on the ground after wrestling with the LEO?
 

Moonman

The Total Package
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
197
Police training in nonviolent situations - in this particular situation the OP presents...the officer lost the high ground the minute he pulled the trigger on that taser on a man who was sitting down showing his hands. It turned a nonviolent situation into a violent one that was dangerous for all parties. I don't blame the officer so much as I do the training and procedure.

Uniformity in standards for "brutality"
Minimal consequences for misconduct
Minorities targeted at higher rates
Culturally...police are less servants of the public, more militarized - extend this to police not being active in the neighborhoods in which they live
Unreported misconduct by police -- https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf

A quick blog by a former officer that acknowledges issues -- https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/honoring-police-includes-acknowledging-systemic

This could be a much longer discussion...I'm just going to stop there.
I read the links you posted and there are several points we would agree on.

Specifically this quote from Stamper...in reference to the drug war.

"For the past half century, local cops have served as foot soldiers in an armed conflict against their neighbors, especially low-income people and communities of color."
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
4,339
What was the point of asking for a supervisor right away like that? If McDowell was cooperative he probably wouldnt even have gotten a ticket.

At the end of the day he’s responsible for his actions.
 

dwreck27

Senior
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
5,757
I've watched enough Live PD to know that the midget cop should have called for backup long before the chick cop showed up.
This. Once he started getting conformational about giving up his ID he should have known things were going to go down hill
 

Cane Fan 4 Life

Redshirt Freshman
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
481
From a law enforcement point of view...both parties made mistakes. Keep in mind all people (LEO included) have different personalities, training, and skill sets and will use what they are most comfortable.

I don’t know the context of the traffic stop (LEO said too fast for conditions) or why it was done at a convenience store.

Video shows the DT walking toward the store and the officer instructs him to sit back in his car.

While working in a pro-active unit, and I’m attempting to initiate a traffic stop, I’ve have had subjects stop, exit their vehicle and/or attempt to enter a residence or business numerous times. Reason is usually bc they have an arrest warrant, license is suspended, or they are attempting to either hide guns/drugs in residence or business.
Sometimes they attempt to flee on foot.

Worse case scenario (not likely), cop believes the DT has a weapon and doesn’t want to go to jail that day is now entering a business which could escalate matters and again turn into a barricaded gunman/hostage situation (again unlikely, but have to expect the worse so you aren’t surprised).

Personally, I think LEO made an error by giving DT verbal commands to go back and sit inside his vehicle. From a tactical point of view, LE should have had DT come back to the front of his patrol car and distance him from his vehicle bc you don’t know what weapons (if any) are inside and this would prevent him having access to them.

DT was initially cooperative and followed the LEO instructions by sitting inside the vehicle...not sure what changed by DT exiting the vehicle and entering the store.

LEO did ask for a back-up unit, but I wasn’t impressed with his verbal skills and inability to diffuse DT’s request for a supervisor. LEO actually did the opposite and helped escalate the issue by saying he was the boss. I would assume he’s a younger and inexperienced officer and was unsure how to gain control of the situation.

I would have liked to see the interaction with LEO and DT before he decided to walk into the store bc it appeared edited (possibly due to time).

TASER would have less effect in colder weather (video showed it was snowing) due to people wearing multiple layers of clothing. After the 1st TASER, LE is standing way to close to DT and should’ve attempted to create a little more distance. It would’ve been very easy for DT to overpower that officer or trip his legs, which would’ve been another problem, but I understand they’re inside a business and there isn’t a lot of room. IMO, the LEO is too close if the DT can reach out and grab your legs.

Not sure what their department’s use of force policy is, but generally LEO is within policy to go one step above the other party’s actions.

No comment on DT’s actions.
 

Dwinstitles

All-American
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
24,982
I'm not defending ****. I just know SOME RACIST white people like to make fun of black people when they see situations like this and assume all blacks act like this. Thomas you're clearly offended it's ok. Cry me a river
Thats the thing that sucks on both sides of it, u got both races of people that are full of hate (not everyone) and do exactly what u said. I try to take that shyt out of it or not even read that shyt cause I know it will get me tight.
 

PimpCane7

Freshman
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
159
Tremendous restraint when he was clearly overwhelmed? Is that what you mean? Because I’m not the one who’s nuts if you can watch that entire video and come to the conclusion that he showed “tremendous restraint”. Some restraint yes, but he could’ve been SMARTER; discretion is the better part of valor and he had backup on the way. Just doing something because you think you’re right can be the wrong thing sometimes. His “boss” attitude could have resulted in either of them dying that night. That’s not smart.

Cop doesn’t know who the **** This guy is because he didn’t hand him paper work. So a suspect you pull over for already breaking the law doesn’t follow your directions and gets out of the vehicle and walks into a store(possibly making this a hostage situation) and the cop isn’t showing amazing restraint? I would have tasered his ass before he walking into the store.
 

Tetragrammaton Cane

Bandwagon Driverless
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
2,838
Cop doesn’t know who the **** This guy is because he didn’t hand him paper work. So a suspect you pull over for already breaking the law doesn’t follow your directions and gets out of the vehicle and walks into a store(possibly making this a hostage situation) and the cop isn’t showing amazing restraint? I would have tasered his ass before he walking into the store.
Your first sentence … stupid. (Show where I mentioned the police officer knowing who he is)
Your second sentence/phrasing/hash … stupider. (He’s not showing “amazing” restraint)
Your third “declaration” … moronic. (There’s been a “Darwin Award” with your name embossed on it since your birth; you’re living on borrowed time)

Most aim to evolve, you’ve shown you can devolve.
 

JD08

Armchair Athletic Director
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
3,124
How about we expect cops to treat everybody with the same respect every time, while at the same time expecting potential violators to be respectful of the police. Then we punish any party that violates those expectations.
 
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