How can this be - the data

[DMoney]

Isn’t it relevant that 5 of the 9 first rounders you mention were ‘08 and prior?

Not really. The results are the same.

In 2006, we had two of the best players of their generation (Campbell and Olsen), a 2X All-Pro (Beason) and a first round safety duo.

That team went 7-6. The next season, we went 5-7. The following year, 7-6.

Three guys from the 2020 team are getting mocked in the first round for next year. We need to make sure we get first round production out of them and break the trend.

 

[The Franchise]

This is an important point. I mention it when we talk roster talent, and it’s a reason why the ‘nfl lists’ give a potentially misleading view of our actual talent at UM. The NFL sees potential and will assess a redshirt sophomore if he declares. If he progresses, he may look great down tje road. But does that mean he was great in college? Or that if he wasn’t, it’s anyone’s fault?

When we talk college talent, we have to really consider the roster. Not just look back and say a kid got drafted.

I think you nailed a huge reason for our lack of AAs. Our best kids don’t stick around, and we have not had the truly rare kids who make AA as a second year kid in ages.

Our entire program is busted, friend. It's pretty sad.

I was sounding this alarm many years ago (and everyone scoffed), but it never sat that well with me that we pitched that NFL-U **** so hard. It took the focus off our program and winning championships at UM and turned it to "get yourself to the NFL because the NFL is all that matters." It's good to make that a secondary message, but to make it your primary message was a huge mistake in my book.

 

[Empirical Cane]

this is an excuse. Look at the list. 83 teams had All Americans on that list. And MANY teams on that list ain’t out-recruiting Miami for kids.

A bunch of those teams had better W-L records than Miami.

 

[Empirical Cane]

Our entire program is busted, friend. It's pretty sad.

I was sounding this alarm many years ago (and everyone scoffed), but it never sat that well with me that we pitched that NFL-U **** so hard. It took the focus off our program and winning championships at UM and turned it to "get yourself to the NFL because the NFL is all that matters." It's good to make that a secondary message, but to make it your primary message was a huge mistake in my book.

Correct.

Ws piling up at Miami are the absolute source of NFL pipeline, not the other way around.

 

[TrueFloridian]

No one who watched flowers at UM can possibly think he should have been an all american. I feel like I can still see him getting a false starts and hold if I close my eyes.

Cambell’s junior year was sub-par. He didn’t deserve award mention for it and didn’t stick for his senior season.

It may be a popularity contest, but kids from Toledo, Northern Illinois, Western Michigan and Kent Stare have made it since we last had a kid make it.

If we’re reduced to saying Kenny Phillips got robbed, I think I can rest my case. That was a decade and a half ago. And ahead of him in ‘06 were LaRon Landry and reggie Nelson. Maybe ‘07 he should have gotten considered but KP didn’t make a ton of game changing plays - as 2 INTs in ‘07 illustrate. The guys who got credit ahead of him all had far more INTs. And ‘07 was a terrible year for our program, which didn’t help him. Hard to be an AA safety without many game changing moments on a school with a losing record thst finishes at the bottom of its conference.

Agree to disagree on Flowers. He was a stud here that played ONE WEEK after having his knee scoped. The man is tough as nails. He was drafted in the top 10 so obviously many people agreed with my sentiments.
Flowers had crap coaching for most of his career. Flowers wasn’t compensating for false starts like guys do when they are outclassed. I blame that on the coaches as much as him. He’s going to have a good career back home at guard and playing backup tackle.

Campbell didn’t have the stats but his presence was felt big time. He single handedly got the crowd involved every snap. His motor is second to none. He’s a class act. He’s built like a football God. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him help bring another Lombardi to charm city. I guess his stats weren’t as good as Derrick Harvey’s lol.

 

[Rellyrell]

Now, and for quite a few yrs it is....If you think Butch didn't have to go up against the SEC Henchmen, and others in the same Mold your extremely kidding yourself...Not only did Butch, (And JJ before him) have to deal with Elite Henchmen, but in Butch's case, having to sit down in a Kids living room with the Kids parents...and sell them why he should come to UM, even though the school was just Rocked with Sanctions, Murder (Barnes)...No Bowl...No TV...Public Scorn...etc...Bottomline.....It's ALL about Evaluations and Proper Coaching....Without those...your Dead in the Water....

Thank you; I’m getting a little sick & tired of this excuse.

OP shared data that included the proverbial non-bag schools which have had more AA than us. Like seriously, I wish that excuse would go away. We’ve never been a bag school. Incentive here & there? Sure; but straight bags? Naw. We don’t have the boosters for that. **** even Shapiro fake *** booster act, was considered peanuts to an elephant compared to other big programs.

The difference today v. yesterday is:

1. Culture problem, where kids are not putting in the work nor being properly guided to put in the work, as there is no on-field or off-field leadership.

2. Our S&C is a farce, and look no further than one guy not being qualified to lead our S&C program as he didn’t have the necessary prerequisite or certificates to be around the kids. The next guy was fat & out of shape, and would consistently be late to lead the program. Our new guy has used embellished stats (like every **** is running 20 mph) as a guise to real results.

3. Our coaching has been horse chit during this period, as the 1st coach was a glorified babysitter. The 2nd coach learned from the first coach, but w/ no previous coaching experience, he was left to fail. The 3rd coach had ONE decent season out of his 4 yrs from a G5 school, and was so tied to his college teammate and butt buddy, that he couldn’t get out his own way. To make matters worst, he thought he was the smartest guy in the room, and his double tongue made him difficult to trust. The 4th coach wanted to retire, and we had to convince him to come by allowing him to ride off in the sunset by hiring his inexperienced son to coach the most important position in football. Now we have coach #5, who learned from the 4th coach who was a shell of himself. He, too, had no previous coaching experience, and what makes him especially dangerous is that he “thinks” he’s the smartest guy in the room, and is tied his butt buddies! (He truly is a combo of Shannon and Golden)

4. No continuity. Either coaches are coming or going, or the assistants are coming and going.

5. Bad evaluations, which directly ties to point #4. We haven’t had a real identity in a while, as our identity continuously changes due to instability with our coaching staff, so we have a lot of square pegs trying to be put in round holes. Example: We went from a 3-4 under Golden where read and react was emphasized, to a 4-3 defense under Diaz where gap integrity was less emphasized as it was all down hill, to a modified nickel defense. In the interim, 3-4 type players were recruited to play in a 4-3, and 4-3 players were recruited to play in a nickel.

6. Lack of leadership. We have an AD who was a glorified ticket counter, and his assistant was person who made sure equal opportunity was given to all, regardless of race, gender identity, or ethnic background. Fantastic traits when it comes to box office or student relations, NOT ATHLETICS!

7. B/c of 1-6, kids are coming here and leaving, DESPITE their lack of draft grades. They are betting on themselves to collect some sort of income vs. staying in this cluster Fck, which trickles back up to point #1.

Just like a perfect storm came together for us to win #1 in 1983, a perfect storm came together to destroy all that was built. Hence, we have a good player here or there, but as a TEAM we’ve sucked.

 

[JgDaCane]

Didnt 15 make an AA team?

 

[Ethnicsands]

Agree to disagree on Flowers. He was a stud here that played ONE WEEK after having his knee scoped. The man is tough as nails. He was drafted in the top 10 so obviously many people agreed with my sentiments.
Flowers had crap coaching for most of his career. Flowers wasn’t compensating for false starts like guys do when they are outclassed. I blame that on the coaches as much as him. He’s going to have a good career back home at guard and playing backup tackle.

Campbell didn’t have the stats but his presence was felt big time. He single handedly got the crowd involved every snap. His motor is second to none. He’s a class act. He’s built like a football God. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him help bring another Lombardi to charm city. I guess his stats weren’t as good as Derrick Harvey’s lol.

Theres nothing to disagree on. I was as big a flowers fan as there was on this site when we were recruiting him. Like him. Root for him. he wasn’t an all american and didn’t deserve to be based on his play at UM. He was drafted on athletic potential, not AA creds. Campbell did not deserve to be an AA either. Just because they’re good, tough kids and played for a team we root for doesn’t mean they merited AA in any particular season.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Not really. The results are the same.

In 2006, we had two of the best players of their generation (Campbell and Olsen), a 2X All-Pro (Beason) and a first round safety duo.

That team went 7-6. The next season, we went 5-7. The following year, 7-6.

Three guys from the 2020 team are getting mocked in the first round for next year. We need to make sure we get first round production out of them and break the trend.

Thats a deflection. If the topic is talent the past decade or so, then it absolutely matters that 4 of the 9 kids you mentioned were ‘08 and prior kids. You know that. You are just changing the discussion away from talent to point out that other things are broken, too. And you’re right. But I have ever claimed otherwise.

 

[The Franchise]

Theres nothing to disagree on. I was as big a flowers fan as there was on this site when we were recruiting him. Like him. Root for him. he wasn’t an all american and didn’t deserve to be based on his play at UM. He was drafted on athletic potential, not AA creds. Campbell did not deserve to be an AA either. Just because they’re good, tough kids and played for a team we root for doesn’t mean they merited AA in any particular season.

I think people are misremembering Calais and just how disappointing his junior season was coming off such a promising sophomore campaign. His work in the NFL has FAR outflanked anything he accomplished here.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I think people are misremembering Calais and just how disappointing his junior season was coming off such a promising sophomore campaign. His work in the NFL has FAR outflanked anything he accomplished here.

We went from palermo coaching DL under shannon in ‘06 to Hurtt coaching under Tim Walton in ‘07.

Total **** show.

 

[John77]

I have a hard time chalking this up to lack of talent considering our propensity for producing solid pros and high round draft picks up until a couple of years ago. Obviously, our recruiting has taken a hit as our stature has declined, but we still recruit well enough where we should expect a couple all americans over a long enough period of time.

To me, it starts with a lack of investment over the past decade and a half in coaching, but also the crucial but less visible aspects of an organization. S&C, nutrition, structure, discipline, etc. This all is hard to quantify but it's clear that it makes a difference, and it's also clear that Miami has been decrepit in many of these areas for a long time.

Something as simple as refusing to adapt to the evolution of the game around the country plays a role, we kept on keeping on with the pro when it was well past time to change, and the lack of numbers as a result of that could be a contributing factor to lack of all americans.

 

[Rellyrell]

I think people are misremembering Calais and just how disappointing his junior season was coming off such a promising sophomore campaign. His work in the NFL has FAR outflanked anything he accomplished here.

This is a fact: Campbell went from a sure first rounder his sophomore year, as he put up close to 11 sacks and like 20 TFL, to like 6 or 7 sacks and there were games where he was washed out. Arizona picked him in the 2nd round b/c of his total body of work, and who wouldn't want a mountain of a man along w/ his potential. You are exactly right, though. Big step back from Junior from Soph year.

 

[coffeecane]

Miami last had an All American in 2005. That's stunning in its own right, but I thought I'd look at what happened in the years since. I tried to get it all right but probably botched a kid or two here or there, but here's what I found. From 2006 -- 2019:

- 83 different teams had at least one AA. (I’m counting AA seasons, so a kid who makes it two years in a row counts as two AA seasons for his school.)
- In Florida, FSU, UF, FAU, USF and UCF all have had one.
- In the ACC, every team other than Miami and VT have had AA s over this stretch -- viz., FSU, Clemson, Virginia, NCST, UNC, Duke, GA Tech, BC, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt

- Alabama destroys everyone else, with 35 AAs over this period. Next were Oklahoma, LSU and Ohio State with 16 each.
- After this group, the next group included Clemson, FSU, Texas, Wisconsin, Stanford, A&M and Michigan, all with 10 or more.
- In the 5-9 range, you had Oklahoma State, Florida, Baylor, USC, Missouri, Iowa, Georgia, Notre Dame and Utah (7-9 each) followed by Oregon, Arkansas, TCU, Penn State, Auburn, UCLA and Michigan St. (5-6 each).
- Schools with 3-4 each were Boston College, Arizona, Texas Tech, Tenn., Oregon St., Arizona St., Memphis, Washington, Ole Miss, Wash. St., Kentucky and Cal

- The following schools all have had 2 AAs since Miami last had one: Colorado, Purdue, Boise St., South Carolina, Illinois, Pitt, Colorado St., Kansas St., Louisville, San Diego St., Houston, NCST, Wake, Cincy, WVA, Nebraska and Duke.
- The following schools all have had an AA since Miami last had one: Toledo, Northern Illinois, Western Michigan, Temple, LA Tech, Kent St., Tulane, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, UCF, USF, FAU, Idaho, BYU, New Mexico, Massachusetts, Indiana, Fresno St., Syracuse, Utah State, GA Tech, Minnesota, North Carolina and Virginia.

I'm interested to hear theories on this. Our coaching and schemes may be bad, but kids from 83 schools made AA over this period! Kids from obscure schools made it.

It may be improbable that any given kid makes AA. But over 14 years, we're zero for every kid we suited up - that cannot be probable. Oklahoma St. has had 9 AAs in this period. Missouri, Iowa and Utah posted 7 each during this period. USC, which has also been bad, has had 8. UCLA had 5. Arizona and Tennessee had 4, Arizona State and Memphis had 3, as did Kentucky, California and Washington State. Illinois, Wake Forest and Duke have had 2!

I think there are a few things going on here: (a) obviously, poor evaluations left us with too little top level talent; (b) what talent we've had has too often left early, missing the chance to accomplish a lot on the field; (c) some of our kids didn't put out the effort they should have, either because they were too NFL focused on believed the hype about them that fan boards provided; and (d) our staffs didn't help put kids in a position to succeed. However, placing the explanation all on (d) sounds like deep denial when the numbers are this stark. Kids from other schools succeeded in touch circumstances.

How can it be this bad? We had 5 AAs in the 1950s, 10 in the 1960s, 10 in the 1970s, 16 in the 1980s, 18 in the 1990s and 22 from 2000--2005. Then, none. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.

Just another reason why we've sucked since 05.

 

[pyhooya]

All Americans are predominantly found on teams willing to pay the going rate four the top recruits.

Going out on a limb but doubt these schools paying more than Miami

Colorado, Purdue, Boise St., South Carolina, Illinois, Pitt, Colorado St., Kansas St., Louisville, San Diego St., Houston, NCST, Wake, Cincy, WVA, Nebraska and Duke

 

[moshated305]

From 2005-2019, Miami produced 9 first rounders and 8 Pro Bowers. Only nine other schools met these criteria.

All nine of those schools either won or played for a national championship during that time frame. Miami only won two bowl games: the MPC Computers Bowl and the Russell Athletic Bowl.

We have not been able to convert our talent into college stars.

Miami is the only place where players get better once they leave the program.

 

[Canedog]

Don't no four sure, but I would think that South Carolina, Louisville, WVA, and Nebraska dew.

 

[Memnon]

To me it's pretty simple:

- ****** Evals
- ****** Coaching
- ****** Development
- ****** Recruiting
- ****** Schemes
- ****** Administration

We've only had one 10 win season since 2003, there's a correlation between the fact that we've lost a lot of games over the last 17 years while simultaneously not producing any All-Americans.

And yes we've still proliferated lots of players into NFL during that time span but it hasn't translated to wins on the field. IMO it doesn't really matter how many mid round draft picks we can fill the league up with, we don't & haven't had top end quality talent to propel us to being a conference contender & being a consistent winner.

It'll turn around with better coaching, better Evals, better recruiting & more money allocated to football program. We run a mom & pop organization right now, in order to compete with the big boys we have to invest more capital into football.

 

[reef1515]

I counted all consensus all americans. No second team kids or random publication kids. Pure and objective. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/awards/all-america-2010-2019.html. No UM player has been a first team AA since 2005. https://hurricanesports.com/news/2011/3/2/205548280.aspx. Hurricane sports doesn’t list Jaquan or Willis.

That’s 14 years, plenty of time for someone to make it. 83 schools had kids who made it! They didn’t all have good teams or systems, though perhaps the outright putridity of our systems held kids back. Still, Ed Oliver managed to shine at Houston despite Dorito, so if a kid is good enough, it shows through.

In case anyone thinks Willis or Jaquan should have been on that list: the “18 DL were Ferrell and Wilkins from Clemson, Oliver from Houston and Q. Williams from Alabama. Williams won the Outland and was a unanimous AA. Oliver was a 3x first team AA and won Outland in ‘17. Ferrell won the Hendricks Award in ‘18 and was a 2x first team AA. Wilkins was a unanimous AA, 2x first team AA, amd won the Willis Trohpy in ‘17 and Campbell Trophy in ‘18. The ‘17 Safeties ahead of Jaquan were Minkah Fitzpatrick who won the Thorpe and DeShon Elliott was was a unanimous AA. Josh Jackson and Denzel Ward were the Cbs.

The answer to this degree of face plant isn’t one thing. It’s everything. But it surely includes getting better top level talent.

Amazing, and we have stunk but there is an insane bias
against the U. Even before 2005, how many of our guys got hosed
at those end of year awards. No heismans etc, all those hall of famers from 2001 team. Look at USC hardware after our run.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Amazing, and we have stunk but there is an insane bias
against the U. Even before 2005, how many of our guys got hosed
at those end of year awards. No heismans etc, all those hall of famers from 2001 team. Look at USC hardware after our run.

It’s not as bad as you say. The bias is at DB - because the Thorpe award is basically an Oklahoma prize. Morgan was the most decorated college LB ever. McKinnie got the Outland and other awards. Dorsey won tons of awards, just not the heisman. We have two Heismans in Vinny and Toretta. All fans think their guys should more awards.