Here is a stat that will surprise some people

[Ethnicsands]

Is there a reason you are bumping this statistical fact? If so, please explain.

As for this year’s OL, I’m not worried about the talent. We’ve recruited pretty well there the last three years. The concern is experience: one junior, two sophomores and two freshmen.

I didn’t bump a statistical fact. I bumped a discussion thread.

A premise of some in the discussion I bumped was that our OL talent was fine, and a better coach would immediately make a night and day difference (we all know better coaching matters, this is about whether there are talent issues that hold us back as well).

The discussion seems relevant, as we have an entirely new offensive staff, new S&C staff, and yet hear consistent reports of continued OL struggles, even to the extent Enos is quite frustrated by the OL challenges and they may impact his OC decisions.

So what is going on? Maybe Enos, Barry et al are similarly as incompetent as Richt and Searels when it comes to OL coaching, or maybe we really do have depth and talent issues on the OL (in addition to our prior staff coaching failures). Those are important questions to consider as we look ahead to the season, so this thread seemed very much relevant to the ongoing discussion. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[DMoney]

So what is going on?

It is very simple. We have no experience and are going against an experienced, high-level front.

I think this OL has several NFL players and a bright future. But a line with two freshmen tackles, a sophomore guard and a sophomore center will have growing pains.

The transition class in 2016 (signing only Tre Johnson) set us back a year. I would judge these guys and Coach Barry by how they look at the end of the season, not the beginning.

 

[Ethnicsands]

It is very simple. We have no experience and are going against an experienced, high-level front.

I think this OL has several NFL players and a bright future. But a line with two freshmen tackles, a sophomore guard and a sophomore center will have growing pains.

The transition class in 2016 (signing only Tre Johnson) set us back a year. I would judge these guys and Coach Barry by how they look at the end of the season, not the beginning.

This whole ‘nfl guys on it’ line strikes me as unhelpful. A true frosh starter may well have an NFL future (who could know at this point?). But that doesn’t mean he’s an ‘nfl type player’ as far as this year’s OL goes.

The reason we are starting a true frosh 2* project recruit at LT is because we absolutely have major talent and depth issues on this OL. Not sure how anyone could disagree with that. Nelson didn’t beat out someone established at LT. He’s like the only kid we have who can even play the spot (save moving Scaife over, just because he’s our best OL).

You also seem to acknowledge the talent point by noting that the first Richt class was a mistake on OL. Somewhere in the cloud, you’ll find me saying just that, back then, when lots of people said we didn’t have major needs because of the Bar Milo, Brandon Loftus class. SMH. Since the Coker era, we’ve had holes in our units that work through our roster like termites. It’s a major part of the reason why we can have NFL kids here and there, but units that underperform (coaching aside — and our coaching has been terrible).

When we recruit, develop, train and coach OL effectively, it won’t be so bad that it holds back our offense in camp, IMO. It’s a crying shame that the only capable LT we have on the roster is a true frosh project. We are unbelievably lucky he’s here and apparently ready to go.

And saying our talent is fine because we might be a good OL by the end of the season is strange, imo. Our first big game is in two weeks and our talent isn’t fine for that. And that game counts, too. If we want this program to be back to relevance, it needs to be able to have units that function on Labor Day, not just in December. That ours doesn’t yet is further evidence of the talent issues, since we have new coaches who can presumably coach.

 

[Twin_Cane]

Hopefully we add another OL to the NFL:

I see two canes

 

[JgDaCane]

If Dan Enos is as great as we hear then he’ll have a plan. Us idiots on a message board know ehat it takes to scheme around an average oline. I’d cerainly hope he does.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I see two canes

St. Louis is a kid who started for 4 years here, and was maligned by a lot of fans because he wasn’t as good as they wished him to be. Yet he played out of position, played with mediocrity around in in some instances, and played for Searels/Richt. Would be great to seem him become a solid NFL player.

 

[brock]

adjust that stat to last 5-8 years and see if results vary

Linder
Flowers
Henderson
Feliciano
Isidora
Each of those guys have started in the nfl
A couple of undrafted free agents in Tyree St. Louis who is impressing, kc McDermott

 

[DMoney]

And saying our talent is fine because we might be a good OL by the end of the season is strange, imo. Our first big game is in two weeks and our talent isn’t fine for that. And that game counts, too.

Since you brought up Florida, I think this should provide some context on our OL talent. Here is Florida's projected OL for Orlando in terms of Composite ratings:

Jean DeLance- 94.57 (Texas transfer)
Brett Heggie- 86.56
Stone Forsythe- 84.37
Nick Buchanon- 82.74
Chris Bleich- Unranked

Their only four star is DeLance, who transferred from Texas after getting buried on the depth chart.

Now let's look at our group.

Navaughn Donaldson- 96.55
Delone Scaife- 93.78
Kai-Leon Herbert- 90.68
John Campbell- 88.04
Zion Nelson- 83.95
Corey Gaynor 83.66

The talent is there. When five of your OL with game experience graduate, there is going to be a learning curve. The 2016 transition class (this year's seniors) set us back. But we have the talent for a long-term, quality OL.

 

[brock]

Since you brought up Florida, I think this should provide some context on our OL talent. Here is Florida's projected OL for Orlando in terms of Composite ratings:

Jean DeLance- 94.57 (Texas transfer)
Brett Heggie- 86.56
Stone Forsythe- 84.37
Nick Buchanon- 82.74
Chris Bleich- Unranked

Their only four star is DeLance, who transferred from Texas after getting buried on the depth chart.

Now let's look at our group.

Navaughn Donaldson- 96.55
Delone Scaife- 93.78
Kai-Leon Herbert- 90.68
John Campbell- 88.04
Zion Nelson- 83.95
Corey Gaynor 83.66

The talent is there. When five of your OL with game experience graduate, there is going to be a learning curve. The 2016 transition class (this year's seniors) set us back. But we have the talent for a long-term, quality OL.

You think Cleveland reed 90.75 can push for a job this year?

 

[MiamiVice7]

Isn’t Oline notoriously difficult to project from HS? Seems HS star ratings offer very little in terms of what to expect from a kid in college, let alone during his first couple seasons.

 

[DMoney]

Isn’t Oline notoriously difficult to project from HS? Seems HS star ratings offer very little in terms of what to expect from a kid in college, let alone during his first couple seasons.

For sure, but it is just another semi-objective measure of talent. The topic of the thread was NFL talent, which we’ve produced a lot of on the OL.

 

[CANE1775]

Looking at the list for us and ufag solidifies my thoughts on this game. It's going to be a defensive game where hopefully we keep our mistakes to a minimum and get a win in ugly fashion.

 

[We the Boss]

In summary: we bury those ****roaches

 

[Torocane]

I didn’t bump a statistical fact. I bumped a discussion thread.

A premise of some in the discussion I bumped was that our OL talent was fine, and a better coach would immediately make a night and day difference (we all know better coaching matters, this is about whether there are talent issues that hold us back as well).

The discussion seems relevant, as we have an entirely new offensive staff, new S&C staff, and yet hear consistent reports of continued OL struggles, even to the extent Enos is quite frustrated by the OL challenges and they may impact his OC decisions.

So what is going on? Maybe Enos, Barry et al are similarly as incompetent as Richt and Searels when it comes to OL coaching, or maybe we really do have depth and talent issues on the OL (in addition to our prior staff coaching failures). Those are important questions to consider as we look ahead to the season, so this thread seemed very much relevant to the ongoing discussion. Wouldn’t you agree?

"even to the extent Enos is quite frustrated by the OL challenges and they may impact his OC decisions."

Is that from a direct Enos quote??
I'm not arguing your point I just haven't heard him say that.

 

[Ethnicsands]

"even to the extent Enos is quite frustrated by the OL challenges and they may impact his OC decisions."

Is that from a direct Enos quote??
I'm not arguing your point I just haven't heard him say that.

I dont think its from a direct quote. It shouldn’t be, because coaches rarely say stuff like that, even when it’s true. Think what you want about it. Probably a lot of what we think we know on this board is from secondary sources. I know what I am consistently hearing from practice accounts, on this site and elsewhere.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Since you brought up Florida, I think this should provide some context on our OL talent. Here is Florida's projected OL for Orlando in terms of Composite ratings:

Jean DeLance- 94.57 (Texas transfer)
Brett Heggie- 86.56
Stone Forsythe- 84.37
Nick Buchanon- 82.74
Chris Bleich- Unranked

Their only four star is DeLance, who transferred from Texas after getting buried on the depth chart.

Now let's look at our group.

Navaughn Donaldson- 96.55
Delone Scaife- 93.78
Kai-Leon Herbert- 90.68
John Campbell- 88.04
Zion Nelson- 83.95
Corey Gaynor 83.66

The talent is there. When five of your OL with game experience graduate, there is going to be a learning curve. The 2016 transition class (this year's seniors) set us back. But we have the talent for a long-term, quality OL.

I didn’t bring up Florida other than to note we must play them. Our OL has to hold up to their D. If their OL is awful too, that’s good for us, but not a defense of whatever challenges we have on OL. I do not consider it sufficient for our OL to be better than Florida’s OL, particularly if their OL may be a hot mess also. I would think we could agree that our expectations are for an outright acceptable OL, not just a less bad one than some other programs that aren’t playoff contenders.

Secondly, you keep on pointing to stars as proof of talent, and I keep responding that it’s about evaluations. I am not sure how much more clear to make it. I don’t see stars as proof of talent, particularly when your own eyes can show you otherwise. Gaynor was our lowest ranked kid other than Nelson, and he’s tough as isht by all accounts, and will be dependable. Get more kids like that, and don’t worry about stars or whether they will be nfl players down the line. I want to see kids who can function together and well as collegiate players at UM.

Finally, it is - in my view - not very meaningful to say we have the talent for a future OL down the road. College rosters turn over rapidly. Our issue is we don’t seem to have the talent for a current year OL, and haven’t for some time. True frosh may give hope, but until we have a roster where we can rely on experienced upper classmen on the OL, we are going to be talkimbout next year over and over again. I’m tired of ‘next year.’ And I am simply pointing out ‘this year’ challenges.

 

[DMoney]

Secondly, you keep on pointing to stars as proof of talent, and I keep responding that it’s about evaluations.

Read the original post in this thread. It is about NFL offensive linemen, i.e. successful evaluations. The stars are an alternative measure that says the same thing. We have more OL talent than most of the teams we play.

Fans lack context when it comes to offensive lines. That's why I keep pointing to teams like Florida and Clemson. And no program aside from maybe Bama is going to replace five rotation OL and excel out of the gates.

Michigan is a perfect example. They are known for recruiting monster OL, as is Jim Harbaugh. But it took years (and a lot of bad performances) for them to field an experienced unit. Now they have one of the best groups in the country. That's how college football works.

 

[90scane]

I like the direction of the team. OL depth is improving. DL depth is improving. Roster management under Diaz has been amazing. If Donaldson and Garvin stay, 2020 could be special along the lines. The two deep is stacked with redshirted talent. Really hope we can pull off another 10 redshirts this year. Let these young kids grow up while playing 4 games.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Read the original post in this thread. It is about NFL offensive linemen, i.e. successful evaluations. The stars are an alternative measure that says the same thing. We have more OL talent than most of the teams we play.

Fans lack context when it comes to offensive lines. That's why I keep pointing to teams like Florida and Clemson. And no program aside from maybe Bama is going to replace five rotation OL and excel out of the gates.

Michigan is a perfect example. They are known for recruiting monster OL, as is Jim Harbaugh. But it took years (and a lot of bad performances) for them to field an experienced unit. Now they have one of the best groups in the country. That's how college football works.

I admit to finding it frustrating to see you continuously repeat yourself without any serious consideration of the points you are ignoring or missing. It’s not that hard to entertain alternative possibilities. I have never once said we are well coached and our only issues are talent, just by way of example. You keep using ‘NFL talent’ here is a slogan meant to provide a narrative. A true frosh playing before he’s ready may be a future nfl talent. Doesn’t mean much for our line this year.

D$, bottom line is our OL has lacked talent for a while, and everyone who has watched it get its isht pushed in knows it. You’ve come up with a theory under which they’re really great, highly talented, better than most everywhere else, and it’s all been bad coaching. If you’re right, then we should see one heck of an OL come the Florida game. If we don’t see a great OL for the Florida game, then we’ll have to consider whether the new staff is also bad at coaching OL and offense, or whether your talent argument has a flaw to it.

In response to that observation above, I believe you backed off a bit, saying we’re really talented but maybe we shouldn’t expect to see it gel until later in the year. To me, that’s evidence we are not talented enough for our actual needs, which are to win the games on our schedule and not just continually build for next year.

You are a fan, and I respect your positivity, but you have been overly positive on this team for most of the past 2 decades. You are stringing together random data points on talent and stars here. But the on field reality has been different. Some of our kids have been poor evals. Some are playing before they’re ready. Playing true frosh is always a risk on OL, no matter how good their nfl future looks. Lack of a LT is a discrete issue that can cause kids to play out of position. Lack of depth is a serious talent issue in its own right, and the main reason we have played true frosh too often. Lump it all together, then remember we had jahair jones and hayden mahoney in our top 6 against LSU last year. There ain’t no way to sugar coat that. It’s a talent issue` in addition to a coaching one. It was last year. It will be this year also if we’re starting a 2* true frosh at LT who was brought in as a developmental kid.

 

[DMoney]

I admit to finding it frustrating to see you continuously repeat yourself without any serious consideration of the points you are ignoring or missing. It’s not that hard to entertain alternative possibilities.

I'm not ignoring your points. I'm just searching, in vain, for anything that is not mere opinion.

I posted hard stats on NFL talent. You dismissed that as a "slogan to provide a narrative." Then I gave you recruiting rankings. You dismissed that as "random data points."

So what objective measure do you provide to show our lack of talent? Let's see:

D$, bottom line is our OL has lacked talent for a while, and everyone who has watched it get its isht pushed in knows it.

Sorry if I don't find that compelling.

You were posting about our OL "getting its isht pushed in" when Linder, Felicano, Flowers, Seantrel and McDermott were here. Four of those guys have started games in the NFL, and McDermott was first-team All ACC. I don't think talent was their problem.

Can we improve our OL talent? Everyone can. But we have more OL talent than 90% of the teams we play, and it's been that way for years. Talent is the least of our issues.