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Here is a stat that will surprise some people

Calvin said:
LoL, riight, you want us to believe a ringless stoutland is better than 1 ringless hand kehoe, head to the nearest rehab quick!
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What did art kehoe do between when clappy fired him and gluten hired him? If he was good as you think, why didnt he get hired by a top program the way stoutland did?
 
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Calvin said:
LoL, riight, you want us to believe a ringless stoutland is better than 1 ringless hand kehoe, head to the nearest rehab quick!
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Wow, love Art to death, but Stoutland is in another league. This shouldn't even be an argument.
 
craval85 said:
It is easy to fall into a logic trap when discussing this, which is why I asked you if you believe that talent (evaluation, acquisition, & development) are all a byproduct of coaching? In your 1st reply you made it seem like you believe the differences between the two are trivial, which is simply not true. I can also understand how thinking the differences between coaching & talent are trivial, could prevent someone from establishing proper causal relationships between the two. Otherwise criticizing symptoms makes it almost impossible to perform an accurate root-cause analysis. Not only that but what is implicit in this criticism is that if somehow the symptoms become addressed, the main underlying issue will also be solved. You gave the example of bad coaches being bad talent evaluators/recruiters. So if poor coaches become good talent evaluators/recruiters, does that now make them good coaches? Of course not-UGA Mark Richt is a prime example of this. He just does not possess the competitive drive/spirit/temperament that is required as HC to win anything of significance, regardless of talent. Finally..criticizing roster talent, while also simultaneously acknowledging incompetent coaching, indirectly undermines the argument that MIA has underachieved relative to it's potential. Underachieving essentially means that MIA has done less with more. Criticizing both talent & coaching simultaneously, implies that you think MIA has done less with less.

No reasonable person would ever try to legitimately make the argument that MIA possesses roster talent that is comparable to Bama, at least not at this moment. But that's really not the point. The more important question to ask is WHY, and is it justified?
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I don’t want to parse your prose, but I think you are lost in your mind on this topic. All we should all want as fans is to understand our team, it’s strengths and weaknesses, and how to make it better. Those weaknesses include coaching. You focus on coaching weakness impacting on field play, and it does and I have never contended otherwise. I focus as well on recruiting deficiencies, because they matter if we want to contend with the big boys and not just get better results out of what we have. so you say what isn’t really ‘the point.’ I disagree. it all matters - leadership, S&C, scheme, game planning, play calling, motivation, teaching, and talent acquisition.

this whole argument is insane. richt played with under 80 recruited scholarships for a couple seasons. That is pathetic. how many potential future nfl players does it take to offset nonexistent players? our roster has been poorly managed since coker. that isn’t debatable. We’ve also had bad to mediocre evals since coker.
 
Ethnicsands said:
What is a talent denier? Do you think we have had the talent to compete with Alabama? The same conversations have been had for 16 years.

  • Of course our coaching has sucked. That’s obvious.
  • Of course bad coaching means underutilization of talent. That’s obvious.
  • Of course underutilization of talent means our talent has been better than our results. That’s obvious.
You know what else is obvious?

  • Our ****** coaches have been mediocre at best recruiters as well.
  • Our talent hasn’t been good enough across the roster to compete with the top of cfb.
  • A roster is a lot more than a few kids who go to the nfl. On OL and across the board.
So what is the point of these OL NFL lists? Are the people hyping this also interested in explaining why Jahair Jones, Mahoney and Gauthier were key players for our OL last year? Isn’t that more relevant at this point than Brandon Linder being an NFL center?

Anyone who thinks we don’t need to evaluate better and recruit better and fill our roster better, raise your hand. Anyone who doesn’t think that, tell me why we’re talking about OL lists here.
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It is easy to fall into a logic trap when discussing this, which is why I asked you if you believe that talent (evaluation, acquisition, & development) are all a byproduct of coaching? In your 1st reply you made it seem like you believe the differences between the two are trivial, which is simply not true. I can also understand how thinking the differences between coaching & talent are trivial, could prevent someone from establishing proper causal relationships between the two. Otherwise criticizing symptoms makes it almost impossible to perform an accurate root-cause analysis. Not only that but what is implicit in this criticism is that if somehow the symptoms become addressed, the main underlying issue will also be solved. You gave the example of bad coaches being bad talent evaluators/recruiters. So if poor coaches become good talent evaluators/recruiters, does that now make them good coaches? Of course not-UGA Mark Richt is a prime example of this. He just does not possess the competitive drive/spirit/temperament that is required as HC to win anything of significance, regardless of talent. Finally..criticizing roster talent, while also simultaneously acknowledging incompetent coaching, indirectly undermines the argument that MIA has underachieved relative to it's potential. Underachieving essentially means that MIA has done LESS with MORE. Criticizing both talent & coaching simultaneously, implies that you think MIA has done LESS with LESS.

No reasonable person would ever try to legitimately make the argument that MIA possesses roster talent that is comparable to Bama, at least not at this moment. But that's really not the point. The more important question to ask is WHY, and is it justified?
 
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Dwinstitles said:
Just ask the people that know what there talking about on here im sure if u made a poll stoutland would win
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I'll just go with the actual resume's, that's not a knock on jeff, but if you were hiring for an o-line opening, and you had both guys resume's in front of you with no prior knowledge of either candidate you still picking stout!
 
Ethnicsands said:
What did art kehoe do between when clappy fired him and gluten hired him? If he was good as you think, why didnt he get hired by a top program the way stoutland did?
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Oh, that's easy, he just went over to become assistant headcoach and o-line coach in Mississippi and help to produce another 1st round draft pick in the meantime while their, and keep in mind, art kehoe was loyal to Miami, never wanted to leave and certain programs he would never go to, but he took the ole miss job for obvious reasons!
 
bacane said:
Wow, love Art to death, but Stoutland is in another league. This shouldn't even be an argument.
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I do agree with you that coach stoutland is in another league, just not in the same league with coach kehoe as a college o-line coach, but coach stoutland is a good coach!
 
Calvin said:
I'll just go with the actual resume's, that's not a knock on jeff, but if you were hiring for an o-line opening, and you had both guys resume's in front of you with no prior knowledge of either candidate you still picking stout!
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If i started a team and its was between Kehoe and Stout in 2019 not 1999 Im taking Stout
 
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Dwinstitles said:
If i started a team and its was between Kehoe and Stout in 2019 not 1999 Im taking Stout
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Im not saying you'd wrong at this juncture, but art kehoe was always a big part of the culture at UM, something jeff didnt have. Which is why it is going to be real interesting to see if this new UM staff can be successful and become a national championship team based on the make up of this coaching staff, remember, no UM team has won a national championship without alot of coaches on staff with ties to the UM championship years besides the 1st one. Alot of people tend to over look the fact the not only is Miami home to the most confident players, but its also home to the most confident coaches. So having a coach rumph and now for the 2nd time a Miami born and bred headcoach will definitely help out in a major way. Coach diaz belongs here, coach rumph, its already understood, the rest of these coaches got alot to prove on the inside to the players, and than to the rest of college football. Coach diaz like jimmy guys seem to go all out for him and that's a positive sign.
 
Calvin said:
Im not saying you'd wrong at this juncture, but art kehoe was always a big part of the culture at UM, something jeff didnt have. Which is why it is going to be real interesting to see if this new UM staff can be successful and become a national championship team based on the make up of this coaching staff, remember, no UM team has won a national championship without alot of coaches on staff with ties to the UM championship years besides the 1st one. Alot of people tend to over look the fact the not only is Miami home to the most confident players, but its also home to the most confident coaches. So having a coach rumph and now for the 2nd time a Miami born and bred headcoach will definitely help out in a major way. Coach diaz belongs here, coach rumph, its already understood, the rest of these coaches got alot to prove on the inside to the players, and than to the rest of college football. Coach diaz like jimmy guys seem to go all out for him and that's a positive sign.
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Calvin said:
I do agree with you that coach stoutland is in another league, just not in the same league with coach kehoe as a college o-line coach, but coach stoutland is a good coach!
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Ok, are you of clear mind? Art is a true Cane, good guy and a decent OL coach. Stoutland is among the most respected OL coaches in football. At last check, Art didn't have a football job. Not even an analyst gig, which is the hot new thing. After being blown out at Ole Miss, he begged to come back to Miami from his makeshift office in a donut shop, and not sure of other options.
Miami named Stoutland interim head coach (Art never enjoyed such distinction) and was lured away from Miami by Nick Saban (Don't believe Saban has Art's number on speed dial). Chip Kelly brought Stoutland to the NFL (Johnson, Erickson, Davis didn't bring Art when they left for NFL jobs). Pederson kept Stoutland when he replaced Kelly. Stoutland was widely heralded for offensive line's play when Eagles won Super Bowl last year. He added the title of run game coordinator in Philly. He coached three All-Pro linemen and an All-Pro tight end. According UM alum Bruce Feldman, Saban tried to hire him back this off-season as offensive coordinator.
Again, respect Art and his place in Canes' history, but there is little comparison between the two coaches.
 
bacane said:
Ok, are you of clear mind? Art is a true Cane, good guy and a decent OL coach. Stoutland is among the most respected OL coaches in football. At last check, Art didn't have a football job. Not even an analyst gig, which is the hot new thing. After being blown out at Ole Miss, he begged to come back to Miami from his makeshift office in a donut shop, and not sure of other options.
Miami named Stoutland interim head coach (Art never enjoyed such distinction) and was lured away from Miami by Nick Saban (Don't believe Saban has Art's number on speed dial). Chip Kelly brought Stoutland to the NFL (Johnson, Erickson, Davis didn't bring Art when they left for NFL jobs). Pederson kept Stoutland when he replaced Kelly. Stoutland was widely heralded for offensive line's play when Eagles won Super Bowl last year. He added the title of run game coordinator in Philly. He coached three All-Pro linemen and an All-Pro tight end. According UM alum Bruce Feldman, Saban tried to hire him back this off-season as offensive coordinator.
Again, respect Art and his place in Canes' history, but there is little comparison between the two coaches.
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facts
 
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