We have less talent than other teams?

[Mico Jones]

Maryland was shellshocked after the Florida State game and underachieved for a month. They happened to wake up today. We're still in the funk and we've lost important players. I just watched College Gameday from this morning. Herbstreit probably summarized best, and this was before the game, "I don't think Miami cares anymore."

Often it's as simple as that, effort or lack of effort, and all the technical analysis is out the window.

My opinion is that we are simply going in the wrong direction on offense and it impacts the team as a whole. These are not separate entities. In the 4th quarter at North Carolina we masked our weaknesses and took on the mantra of a more physical team by running the ball, cleansing the entire team. Since that point, starting with North Carolina, our rushing attempts have been 45-40-29-24-29. If that number were maintained in the 40+ range, we'd be more physical, more competitive, the defense would not be as worn out or discouraged, and the overall talent level would not be condemned to this degree.

I can't even remember the last time we had three consecutive games with fewer than 30 rushes. I know it hasn't been any time in recent years. Yet nobody is talking about it at all. I guess we're supposed to allow Duke to play the bully role with 52 rushes and only 24 passes, while we take our 17-7 first quarter lead and somehow turn that into 29 runs and 49 passes. Wonderful. Brilliant. And while we're at it, let's make sure plenty of those passes, particularly the vital ones on third down, are out of wimpy empty backfield sets.

Our talent level at this point is so fragile that you have to do the right thing across the board. I attended that North Carolina game and thought we had figured it out in the 4th quarter. We'll probably draw a poor matchup in the bowl and be toyed with. Against the next two opponents it should be basic and physical and run oriented, as a lesson toward next season if nothing else. The same problems will show up in 2014, if likely to lesser degree. Our defensive line and front seven talent won't magically soar next season, no matter the incoming class.

More than anything, I want to make sure I'm the number one opponent of empty sets. With a quarterback and passing game on our level, it's not sophisticated, it's congestion. Drive halting frail congestion.

Accidentally " liked" the post. Meant to Neg it.

This is absolute Bullsh*t,

Blame the offense for sh*t defense.

The scheme is to blame for getting the defense tired, not the offense.

Offense must play in the manner best fit to score points, that's it.

The defensive scheme gives the opponent first down after first down hoping to squeeze windows in the red zone.

If we were more aggressive we would either force more turnovers, get off the field faster or the opponent would score faster.

We would get the ball back to our best unit...the offense and the defense would not be tired and worn out.

Wake hat a 6 minute drive early in that game. Ridiculous. Has nothing to do with the offense. ZERO.

 

[Mico Jones]

2. I just ran through every game since and took out FAu and Savannah St. Our offense in 100 series has had only 43% of the drives last over 2 minutes and 25% were less than 3 minutes. That is the downside of our inconsistent QB and our boom or bust offense. Add in the turnovers and quite frankly, our defense is tired. If you know what the **** you are talking about, it is clear that our defense is worn out. The guys named above take the most snaps. The freshman are hitting walls. It is fatigue that leads to missed tackles and blown assignments in crunch time, and that is exactly what is happening in the last 3 games.

It is a pipe dream if you think that a change in scheme would do anything for our defense. They are untalented and beaten down. Add in that our offense is missing its 3 most explosive players in Duke, Dorsett and now Coley....you end up losing to DUKE.

.

IS THIS REAL LIFE?

Many of those short drives are because of explosive plays from our talented offensive athletes. Our offense is what it is. You can't make the 1980's NY Giants with 3 yards and a cloud of dust. We don't have the skill players for that style of offense, period.

Therefore, you adjust the defense. Its as simple as being more aggressive. Forcing the action.

Oregon's defense is designed to cater to their style of offense. They one blitz and attack constantly. Either they turn the opponent over, stop them on down or they get scored upon. Either result it happens quickly so that they can get their offense back on the field and so they are less worn on defense.

Blaming the offense for this defense is ridiculous.

 

[AL CANE]

It seems dorito thinks we still have 2001 level talent where teams adjusted to us and we didnt have to change out of our base Defense. I dont know if he is just stubborn or he is too stupid to develop a different scheme that can actually be effective.

 

[NVA CANE]

Lulz at people still complaining about the talent.

 

[RiDLer80]

How did these guys turn temple kids into productive nfl players? I don't get what's happening down here now

They turned like 3 players into NFL players.

Let's not get carried away.

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

How did these guys turn temple kids into productive nfl players? I don't get what's happening down here now

They turned like 3 players into NFL players.

Let's not get carried away.

The Myth of the Superior Temple Talent Development...just like the many other CiS myths that have all proved to be wrong over the past few weeks.

 

[Gatorhater]

Under Randy all we heard was "entitled" underachievers with a lot of talent. I think that was true, although the talent was not as good as we thought. Now, to some we have no talent, to others no coaching. I don't know, but it does seem clear that we have enough talent to not have our rears handed to us by VT and Duke. Maybe we just don't have enough talented overachievers to make up for "entitled" coaches now. I do think that regardless of anything, Mark would be gone today if he was not Al's BFF. There is Al's problem. This might or might not be Marks' fault but he has to be fired or Al is going to get himself "Bowdened" You should never get into business with friends or family.

This season is toast. Decisions now have to be based on what keeps this 2014 class together for NSD and then what staff can use it best. This class is outstanding and means our future. Clearly Al has to stay. But if he appears in trouble the sharks with come in for the kill and we will lose the studs we must have. For that reason, the AD must act. Mark has to go and a name DC brought in fast. Maybe the Alburn ex-head coach--he was a DC before I think. Clearly not HC material but might be decent DC. The AD has to move fast before class starts to come apart. We have talent but need more, much more. This program cannot exist as a so-so deal. It is all in or dead.

 

[Stingarov]

What we have are less perceptive fans than other teams. I can't believe anyone would defend that fat ****'s defense after the past three years, but it's happening on a few sites.

 

[Cane18]

You have to adjust your scheme to the talent that you have.

Put Saban in charge of this team and the only loss is FSU.

Great coaches adjust and win the majority of their games.

 

[LuCane]

From another poster. I copied and pasted




Who showed promise in other schemes? These players are not "regressing," they were never good to begin with. You all just hype these kids up based on "insiders" from Greentree or some ridiculous game you play on paper.

I have heard this SCHEME bull**** every year since we lost to Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl. Randy was to vanilla. Whipple to was to risky. 2 gap, 1 gap. The common denominator is our talent level has sucked for years. I don't give two ****s who will or is playing in the NFL.

But if the NFL is your guide, we haven't had a 1st round pick in 5 years.

On Defense here are the players drafted in the top 4 rounds:
2nd Round - Brandon Harris
3rd Round - Allen Bailey, O Vernon, Spence, DVD
4th round - Colin McCarthy, Daryl Sharpton

Brandon Harris, Spence, and DVD are not in the league.
Allen Baily has 20 career tackles and 2 sacks.
Vernon and McCarthy are the only 2 doing anything.
Sharpton is average. Hasn't had more than 35 tackles in season.

We had 2 ****ing players drafted last year..Mike James and Brandon McGee in the 6th and 5th round.
We sure as **** won't have any defensive players drafted this year unless perryman comes out although he is probably a 4th rounder.
The two defensive players with the most NFL talent on the team on defense are Bush, who has been hurt all year, and AQM, who has a shot to be a 1st rounder one day.

How is that talent?

Last 3 years NFL Drafts Top 4 rounds-Defense
North Carolina = 7
Florida St = 5
Georgia Tech = 4
Clemson = 6
UVA = 2
BC = 1
NC St = 1
Miami = Big Fat ****ing Zero

Any if you look at any moc drafts for 2014 and 2015, GT has two LB projected as 1/2 picks. FSU has 6. Clemson has 2.
MIAMI = 000000000000

But the lack of elite talent is only problem #1.

The biggest problem is the drop off from our so called NFl talent to guys like Highsmith, Green, Renfrow, Cain, Porter, Robinson, Rodgers, Cornelius, Gaines. These guys are undraftable 2/3 star recruits who we all hold in such high regard yet it is debateable if they would even be on the two on ALL of our major conference opponents.

You can't scheme your way out of that. Sorry Coach. Go back to the drawing board with your tired talking points.

This team's best players are freshman and sophomores. The cupboard was left empty when Shannon left and we are still haunted by his last two defensive classes. Golden has done a good but not great job of recruiting defense so he takes some of the blame but time will tell is Jenkins, Howard, Bush, AQM, Figs, Grace, Burns, Hamilton, McCord become impact players as the mature.

So after that ramble...here are the real problems.

1. We have a bifurcated team. Our best athletes are true freshman and sophomores and our most experienced guys are barely BCS level talent. If you are a coach, as I was for many years as a volunteer, you will clearly understand the difficulty of putting together a gameplan with your older guys not being athletic enough to execute and your younger guys not experienced enough to eliminate mental errors. You can't implement 2 systems so you are asking AJ Highsmith and Deon Bush to accomplish the same strategic goals. That is not a good spot to be in. The complaint was we were playing to much zone and now we are playing a bunch of man coverage and we are getting smoked on the ground. That is the downside of man coverage. It is very dangerous when you have a front 7 like ours. The good old blitz....who are you going to blitz? Gaines? Highsmith? They are to slow to put any pressure on the QB. If you blitz perryman, you now are putting Gaines or Cornelius in potential bad match ups as they are mismatch against just about every position player other than the Center. You want to disguise and get exotic, it can be complex for the young guys and they will make mental errors or you can have a slow and unathletic Highsmith get out of position because he can't get to his spot. We can't get pressure on the QB with our front 4 so you we are forced to send 5 or 6 which leaves huge holes in the defense in zone, or bad matchups with LBs and Safeties on RB and TE. See FSU game and Eric Ebron. To make matters worse, our blitzes arent effective because our players aren't atheltic enough to get pessure and not one DL commands a Double team so the protection can easily slide and go man up on the rushers.

2. I just ran through every game since and took out FAu and Savannah St. Our offense in 100 series has had only 43% of the drives last over 2 minutes and 25% were less than 3 minutes. That is the downside of our inconsistent QB and our boom or bust offense. Add in the turnovers and quite frankly, our defense is tired. If you know what the **** you are talking about, it is clear that our defense is worn out. The guys named above take the most snaps. The freshman are hitting walls. It is fatigue that leads to missed tackles and blown assignments in crunch time, and that is exactly what is happening in the last 3 games.

It is a pipe dream if you think that a change in scheme would do anything for our defense. They are untalented and beaten down. Add in that our offense is missing its 3 most explosive players in Duke, Dorsett and now Coley....you end up losing to DUKE.

I am tired of hearing your scheme BS. Our DL slants and stunts half the game so your 1 gap vs 2 gap argument is garbage. But you KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT....SO CARRY ON.

It's one **** of a straw man argument by CanesSB. I'm not even bothering with him because it doesn't address such a simple question. Plus, there are just blatant lies in there. A guy who says we play 1 gap and slants and stunts HALF THE GAME is either just trolling or exaggerating for effect.

It's basically an enormous excuse formed to avoid the simplest of all questions: people like this are saying we don't have enough talent to slow down Duke. But, teams like Memphis, Troy and others do. Come on, man.

 

[ssj4cane]

Average to below average talent plus a lousy scheme/philosophy=500 yards a game to ACC teams. If we had a decent scheme we would still give up points and yards but not to the extent we are now. The Duke and Va Tech games would probably look more like 34 to 30 with us having a chance to win instead of getting blown out.

It tells me something that the defense has been so bad in conference play. Teams know what we do and are exploiting the **** out of our scheme/philosophy.

 

[DiegoCane]

Players aren't put in a position to succeed, simple as that.

 

[LuCane]

Players aren't put in a position to succeed, simple as that.

I've been beating the "I'm concerned about our PHILOSOPHY" drum since the beginning of the season. Probably 50% of the posts I've made out of concern are about philosophy. The reason is really simple. It's based out of some of the comments from players themselves.

I drew up the concern into basically a scenario and post last week: http://www.canesinsight.com/threads...8-pillars-Football-Scenario?highlight=pillars

Philosophy and Trust. My hope is that Coach Golden will be practical and adjust those aspects. I don't know if he will. That stuff is usually embedded in people's DNA. We'll see.

 

[JHallCanes]

The "talent" argument is the biggest crock of **** going.

Blaming kids like AJ Highsmith for this ******* failure. It's embarrassing. Duke would be ******* thrilled to have a kid as good as AJ Highsmith or Cornelius...or whoever the **** else some of our fans want to blame.

 

[Supercane85]

Ok, let's stop talking in circles and actually take a look at some of the other teams. This is a simple discussion. It's not about what we should be or what we want to be. It's not about "elite" talent or even getting back to the "U of old." It's what we have and what we've done versus what other teams have and what they've done.

It's not that complicated. Does Maryland's defense have so much more talent than our defense? Let's look. Maryland lost both its top Corners, Jeremiah Johnson and Dexter Mcdougle, so they played today with 2nd stringers and young guys (including, gasp, multiple True Freshmen).

One key stat I figured everyone would like:

Virginia Tech's offense was 4 of 16 on 3rd down conversions today. Repeat that a couple times. Here are the Maryland players (bluntly, I'm not disparaging guys because I was incredibly pumped and proud watching them play with passion and anticipate plays) who disrupted VTech all day long.

3-star DB 21	Sean Davis	5	4	7.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
5' 11" 270 pound DL 93	Andre Monroe	4	5	6.5	3.5/24	.	.	.	.	.	3.0/21	.
2 star - not rated - developed into NFL prospect 47	Cole Farrand	4	4	6.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
2 star - not rated 35	Alex Twine	4	2	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	1
3-star LB 53	L.A. Goree	3	4	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Senior, stepped in for injured guys, former 2-star 17	Isaac Goins	3	2	4.0	1.0/8	.	.	.	.	.	1.0/8	.
I couldn't find his rating. 40	Matt Robinson	2	3	3.5	2.0/7	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
3-star Safety prospect. 20	Anthony Nixon	2	3	3.5	1.0/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
I couldn't find his rating. 41	Marcus Whitfield	2	2	3.0	0.5/2	.	.	.	1	.	0.5/2	1
True Freshman. 3-Star. Florida guy. 4	William Likely	2	2	3.0	.	.	.	.	1	.	.	.
3- star DE. 99	Quinton Jefferson	1	4	3.0	2.0/15	.	.	.	.	.	2.0/15	.
I couldn't find a rating. 97	Darius Kilgo	1	1	1.5	0.5/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	1

It's not all about stars. It's about development, too, obviously. It's also about what players are asked to do that make them look one way or another. That's the group that from Maryland that made the plays today. Is that group that much more talented than our group? I'm not asking how they LOOK. We obviously know that they looked better against VTech than we looked against VTech. The question is: Why did that group look so much better against VTech than we did?

We can do this for other teams, too. Like Memphis. Like Troy. And, some other teams that have played Duke and VTech better than what we did.

We don't lack talent but we do lack impact players.

But I don't think our talent level is three scores less than Duke

 

[DiegoCane]

Players aren't put in a position to succeed, simple as that.

I've been beating the "I'm concerned about our PHILOSOPHY" drum since the beginning of the season. Probably 50% of the posts I've made out of concern are about philosophy. The reason is really simple. It's based out of some of the comments from players themselves.

I drew up the concern into basically a scenario and post last week: http://www.canesinsight.com/threads...8-pillars-Football-Scenario?highlight=pillars

Philosophy and Trust. My hope is that Coach Golden will be practical and adjust those aspects. I don't know if he will. That stuff is usually embedded in people's DNA. We'll see.

Totally agree. You can see he believes in this defensive philosophy by the way he coaches in game. He is extremely passive. Watching him punt on 4th and short repeatedly with our defense pretty much sums up his philosophy.

He is going to have to completely change his ways if we are going to be successful.

 

[LuCane]

Ok, let's stop talking in circles and actually take a look at some of the other teams. This is a simple discussion. It's not about what we should be or what we want to be. It's not about "elite" talent or even getting back to the "U of old." It's what we have and what we've done versus what other teams have and what they've done.

It's not that complicated. Does Maryland's defense have so much more talent than our defense? Let's look. Maryland lost both its top Corners, Jeremiah Johnson and Dexter Mcdougle, so they played today with 2nd stringers and young guys (including, gasp, multiple True Freshmen).

One key stat I figured everyone would like:

Virginia Tech's offense was 4 of 16 on 3rd down conversions today. Repeat that a couple times. Here are the Maryland players (bluntly, I'm not disparaging guys because I was incredibly pumped and proud watching them play with passion and anticipate plays) who disrupted VTech all day long.

3-star DB 21	Sean Davis	5	4	7.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
5' 11" 270 pound DL 93	Andre Monroe	4	5	6.5	3.5/24	.	.	.	.	.	3.0/21	.
2 star - not rated - developed into NFL prospect 47	Cole Farrand	4	4	6.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
2 star - not rated 35	Alex Twine	4	2	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	1
3-star LB 53	L.A. Goree	3	4	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Senior, stepped in for injured guys, former 2-star 17	Isaac Goins	3	2	4.0	1.0/8	.	.	.	.	.	1.0/8	.
I couldn't find his rating. 40	Matt Robinson	2	3	3.5	2.0/7	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
3-star Safety prospect. 20	Anthony Nixon	2	3	3.5	1.0/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
I couldn't find his rating. 41	Marcus Whitfield	2	2	3.0	0.5/2	.	.	.	1	.	0.5/2	1
True Freshman. 3-Star. Florida guy. 4	William Likely	2	2	3.0	.	.	.	.	1	.	.	.
3- star DE. 99	Quinton Jefferson	1	4	3.0	2.0/15	.	.	.	.	.	2.0/15	.
I couldn't find a rating. 97	Darius Kilgo	1	1	1.5	0.5/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	1

It's not all about stars. It's about development, too, obviously. It's also about what players are asked to do that make them look one way or another. That's the group that from Maryland that made the plays today. Is that group that much more talented than our group? I'm not asking how they LOOK. We obviously know that they looked better against VTech than we looked against VTech. The question is: Why did that group look so much better against VTech than we did?

We can do this for other teams, too. Like Memphis. Like Troy. And, some other teams that have played Duke and VTech better than what we did.

We don't lack talent but we do lack impact players.

But I don't think our talent level is three scores less than Duke

I agree we lack impact players. That means we're not going to be challenging FSU. It doesn't mean we can't perform up to the level of the team I outlined above, Duke's defense itself, Memphis, Troy and half of Wake's schedule who performed better than we did. I'm amazed people are willing to argue against that.

Our impact guys have not yet fully developed. I'm concerned they may never develop fully if they continue to play with hesitation.

 

[DiegoCane]

The "talent" argument is the biggest crock of **** going.

Blaming kids like AJ Highsmith for this ******* failure. It's embarrassing. Duke would be ******* thrilled to have a kid as good as AJ Highsmith or Cornelius...or whoever the **** else some of our fans want to blame.

While I agree talent isn't an issue I wouldn't go that far. Highsmith and Cornelius are terrible players but its on Golden and D'O because they still play them. I can say without doubt that Highsmith isn't a D1 safety.

 

[Southcane]

Maryland was shellshocked after the Florida State game and underachieved for a month. They happened to wake up today. We're still in the funk and we've lost important players. I just watched College Gameday from this morning. Herbstreit probably summarized best, and this was before the game, "I don't think Miami cares anymore."

Often it's as simple as that, effort or lack of effort, and all the technical analysis is out the window.

My opinion is that we are simply going in the wrong direction on offense and it impacts the team as a whole. These are not separate entities. In the 4th quarter at North Carolina we masked our weaknesses and took on the mantra of a more physical team by running the ball, cleansing the entire team. Since that point, starting with North Carolina, our rushing attempts have been 45-40-29-24-29. If that number were maintained in the 40+ range, we'd be more physical, more competitive, the defense would not be as worn out or discouraged, and the overall talent level would not be condemned to this degree.

I can't even remember the last time we had three consecutive games with fewer than 30 rushes. I know it hasn't been any time in recent years. Yet nobody is talking about it at all. I guess we're supposed to allow Duke to play the bully role with 52 rushes and only 24 passes, while we take our 17-7 first quarter lead and somehow turn that into 29 runs and 49 passes. Wonderful. Brilliant. And while we're at it, let's make sure plenty of those passes, particularly the vital ones on third down, are out of wimpy empty backfield sets.

Our talent level at this point is so fragile that you have to do the right thing across the board. I attended that North Carolina game and thought we had figured it out in the 4th quarter. We'll probably draw a poor matchup in the bowl and be toyed with. Against the next two opponents it should be basic and physical and run oriented, as a lesson toward next season if nothing else. The same problems will show up in 2014, if likely to lesser degree. Our defensive line and front seven talent won't magically soar next season, no matter the incoming class.

More than anything, I want to make sure I'm the number one opponent of empty sets. With a quarterback and passing game on our level, it's not sophisticated, it's congestion. Drive halting frail congestion.

I agree with Herbstreit. The team is emotionally drained and has not recovered from FSU loss. And that takes me back to my point that I alluded to in another thread: Fragile team mentality and lack of leadership on the team: It is true that our coaching in general leaves much to be desired, including AG calls not to go for 4 and 1 or 2 on three different occasions (which in my opinion does not instil confidence in our offensive players and the team as a whole) but having strong minded SOB players with intensity and leadership can sometimes make a mediocre coach look like a world class one (see Coker). this is what I wrote in another thread:
" People like to take sides and pick specific someone/something to blame. The reality is many of those arguments are valid and it is a combination of small things that lead big disasters.

Our defense is a big disaster and it is a result of a combination of things all add up to this terrible result. Like when bad outcome occurs in medicine in a usually good practice environment: A multidude of subtle errors that when occur in isolation are harmless, but when are added to a few other subtle errors the result is greater than the sum and is often disastrous.

So IMHO, better job can definitely be done by the coaches to use whatever talent they have but it is also true that we don't have the talents and leadership to make up for some coaching mistakes and take over games. When Coker was here and we won 1 championship and competed for a second, the program was almost on cruise control and Ed Reed and Dorsey were the real coaches of the team.

Regardless of the coaching scheme, have anyone else noticed how our defensive players are deflated, with no emotion, fire and intensity? I just don't sense great leadership on this side of the ball which I was hoping to see even if we have mediocre DC. "

 

[bobbydigius]

Hmmmm, you would have to let us know how experienced those kids are, Lu. Right now, except for 5 exceptions (Perryman, Pierre, Chickillo, Armbrister and King, hardly a who´s who of defensive studs), all Golden´s players are in their 1st or 2nd year in the program.

And sorry bobbydigius, but the problem is talent AND coaching. We have some godawful players on D, DLs getting blown off the ball, Highsmith, Rodgers, Cornelius, Gaines missing reads, missing gaps, taking bad angles, getting dragged along when they do get to the ball carrier, avoiding contact a lot.

I said it was coaching and talent, it's just once again like a broken record, the talent isn't as bad as the performance shows. I understand giving up 500+ to a school like FSU, but not Duke and what VT had this year. That is what everyone is saying. We have average talent, but play like the sorriest defense in the land. We need more talent but the scheme and coaching is the first and foremost problem right now. Look it will work itself out as Golden isn't gonna get fired, next year is year 4 with this defens and 3 full classes from Al and crew. When do you stop beating the talent drum? Cause next year finally finishing in the top 75 in defense won't cut for me.