Off-Topic Ukraine

[Bender]

The US has put itself in a predicament. If Russia is our enemy, then there is no reason we should be supporting European countries in NATO, who act against our interests (supporting Russia’s economy via energy and NS2).

So why don’t we normalize relations with Russia, make everyone in NATO pay their fair share, and agree on not expanding?

The US is importing oil from Russia in large scales, so they are guilty of the exact same behaviour.

Besides, all NATO members agreed on paying 2% of their GDP%. The US is overpaying by almost double and no one is forcing them. Second, there is no normalization with Russia, they have started cyber attacks on US institutions at a fairly consistent rate. Third, no, for the 100th time, the NATO should not stop expanding in Europe because it literally protects them from Russia. Why in the **** do I have to repeat this, it's not that difficult...

 

[Gransapo]

This doesnt change the fact that the NATO has never started an attacking war and is completely incapable of doing so.

1. Korea (still at war)
2. Formosa
3. Puerto Rico
4. Guatemala
5. Lebanon
6. Vietnam
7. Cuba
8. Laos
9. Congo
10. Dominican Republic
11. Laos
12. Cambodia
13. El Salvador
14. Libya
15. Sinai
16. Lebanon (again)
17. Grenada
18. Honduras
19. Libya (again)
20. Honduras (again)
21. A bunch of **** in the Persian Gulf
22. Panama
23. Columbia
24. Bolivia
25. Peru
26. Phillippines
27. Panama (again)
28. Iraq
30. Zaire
31. Sierra Leone
32. Bosnia
33. Somalia
34. Macedonia
35. Bosnia (again)
36. Haiti (who has been ****ed over by the US since its independence)
37. Bosnia (again)
38. Iraq (again)
39. Afghanistan (Clinton)
40. Sudan
41. East Timor
42. Serbia

That's just the United States through 1999 and doesn't include all the deployments for "humanitarian" missions.

Do you want me to list what the British and French have been doing since 1949?

 

[Bender]

1. Korea (still at war)
2. Formosa
3. Puerto Rico
4. Guatemala
5. Lebanon
6. Vietnam
7. Cuba
8. Laos
9. Congo
10. Dominican Republic
11. Laos
12. Cambodia
13. El Salvador
14. Libya
15. Sinai
16. Lebanon (again)
17. Grenada
18. Honduras
19. Libya (again)
20. Honduras (again)
21. A bunch of **** in the Persian Gulf
22. Panama
23. Columbia
24. Bolivia
25. Peru
26. Phillippines
27. Panama (again)
28. Iraq
30. Zaire
31. Sierra Leone
32. Bosnia
33. Somalia
34. Macedonia
35. Bosnia (again)
36. Haiti (who has been ****ed over by the US since its independence)
37. Bosnia (again)
38. Iraq (again)
39. Afghanistan (Clinton)
40. Sudan
41. East Timor
42. Serbia

That's just the United States through 1999 and doesn't include all the deployments for "humanitarian" missions.

Do you want me to list what the British and French have been doing since 1949?

I repeat: The NATO as an organization has never started a war and is incapable of doing so.

Its amazing how I have explained the concept of what the NATO is, yet people blatanly ignore it. So I will do it again, just for you: If the United States attack Korea whilst being a member of the NATO, this does not mean that the NATO has started the war. It means that the United States have started a war. The NATO is simply a military alliance targeted to protect (mainly) Europe from being attacked by Russia. Its why it was founded in the first place.

Edit: You can list all of the military activies by each member if you want to. Doesnt change the fact that I have stated. If all NATO members attacked Vietnam, it would be true. They didnt, so that makes it fairly easy

 

[NC_Canes_11]

The US is importing oil from Russia in large scales, so they are guilty of the exact same behaviour.

Besides, all NATO members agreed on paying 2% of their GDP%. The US is overpaying by almost double and no one is forcing them. Second, there is no normalization with Russia, they have started cyber attacks on US institutions at a fairly consistent rate. Third, no, for the 100th time, the NATO should not stop expanding in Europe because it literally protects them from Russia. Why in the **** do I have to repeat this, it's not that difficult...

I know we are importing oil from Russia and ive already explained that we shouldn’t be, bc it’s a national security issue.

As far as paying into NATO it needs to be upped bc of GDP size.

Normalization with Russia is 100% possible. The world isn’t black and white. There’s a whole lot of grey area you’re just gonna have to accept. Do you buy stuff made in China? Apple, Nike, etc. Bc if you do you’re supporting slave labor. See what I’m saying? We spent 20 years in the Middle East and nothing came of it but bloodshed. It’s time to accept that every problem is not fixable. It’s about minimizing events like this.

If you’re willing and able, you go strap on a vest and grab your firearms and take down every authoritarian leader you want. Invite your friends as well. The rest of us will tend our own hut and accept what we can and can’t change.

 

[Bender]

As far as paying into NATO it needs to be upped bc of GDP size.

I mean, everyone is paying relative of their GDP. Just because the US is hellbent on paying more doesnt mean everyone else should be. Most people cringe at how much the US spends for their military.

Normalization with Russia is 100% possible. The world isn’t black and white. There’s a whole lot of grey area you’re just gonna have to accept. Do you buy stuff made in China? Apple, Nike, etc. Bc if you do you’re supporting slave labor. See what I’m saying? We spent 20 years in the Middle East and nothing came of it but bloodshed. It’s time to accept that every problem is not fixable. It’s about minimizing events like this

Its not. If you would have paid any attention toward european politics over the past eight years, you would see it. For the record, its Russias fault for them being unwilling to negotiate terms. Example: The Ukraine giving up their nuclear ****nal in exchange for Russias promise to not attack them in 1994, known as the Budapest Memorandum. 20 years later, Putin held a "vote" under strong military force regarding Crimea.

And I will not get into that compairson because that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

you’re willing and able, you go strap on a vest and grab your firearms and take down every authoritarian leader you want. Invite your friends as well. The rest of us will tend our own hut and accept what we can and can’t change

I can understand philosophy but posting random nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic at hand doesnt make your statement more convincing.

 

[Gransapo]

Or from anyone period our oil and gas is the largest in the world yet we ship all our oil in from Russia and Middle East.

How can anyone make sense of this , even if they say we’re cut down our carbon footprint but we’ll still bring it from foreign countries.

Explain that


This is one of my top questions to as Saki in press briefings.

The vast majority of our Crude Oil and Products Imports is from Canada, over 50% of our imports for the month of November 2021, which is the last data set available.

U.S. Total Crude Oil and Products Imports

Strategically, the USA made a decision a very long time ago to use up every one else's oil and save ours. The idea we need to open up more oil fields here is just a slight of hand to give oil producers another hand out. If the US was serious about squeezing the nuts of the rogue nations, we would invest in renewable energies but the monied interests in this country rather lie in bed with despicable despots like Saudi Arabia.

 

[Bender]

If the US was serious about squeezing the nuts of the rogue nations, we would invest in renewable energies but the monied interests in this country rather lie in bed with despicable despots like Saudi Arabia.

Finally, some sense...

 

[Brains]

The vast majority of our Crude Oil and Products Imports is from Canada, over 50% of our imports for the month of November 2021, which is the last data set available.

U.S. Total Crude Oil and Products Imports

Strategically, the USA made a decision a very long time ago to use up every one else's oil and save ours. The idea we need to open up more oil fields here is just a slight of hand to give oil producers another hand out. If the US was serious about squeezing the nuts of the rogue nations, we would invest in renewable energies but the monied interests in this country rather lie in bed with despicable despots like Saudi Arabia.

We'd build some nuclear plants, for starters.

 

[Gransapo]

Are you and @puertorricane the same person? You must be, since both of you exhibit tremendous ignorance (and nothing short of plain stupidity). Are you also advocating the killing of innocent Ukrainian people who were invaded by an evil and ruthless tyrant and his military establishment?

We are not the same person. I also have not written anything other than verifiable facts. You are the one making personal attacks. I am not advocating the killing of any innocents. What I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the United States, who has engaged in the systematic killing of innocents since before it was a country. In addition, Putin is in power because of how the United States chose to deal with the fall of the USSR. Time and again, the US has created the problems that the world must deal with later. We should concern ourselves with rectifying our actions and policies before interfering in those of others.

 

[Bender]

We'd build some nuclear plants, for starters.

Or be like Germany: Shut down coal and nuclear plants at the same time, import French electricity from nuclear sources and fail to compensate with renewable energies because people are ******* idiots around here.

I dont recommend that strategy. 2/10

 

[NC_Canes_11]

I mean, everyone is paying relative of their GDP. Just because the US is hellbent on paying more doesnt mean everyone else should be. Most people cringe at how much the US spends for their military.



Its not. If you would have paid any attention toward european politics over the past eight years, you would see it. For the record, its Russias fault for them being unwilling to negotiate terms. Example: The Ukraine giving up their nuclear ****nal in exchange for Russias promise to not attack them in 1994, known as the Budapest Memorandum. 20 years later, Putin held a "vote" under strong military force regarding Crimea.

And I will not get into that compairson because that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


I can understand philosophy but posting random nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic at hand doesnt make your statement more convincing.

What we spend on the military is astronomical, but when there is somebody with a sound mind and a set of nuts leading it, stuff like this doesn’t happen. I mean we literally just spent the entirety of the last administration with no Russian invasions. It matters who is in charge of America. You can argue what “normalizing relations” means, whether it’s telling Putin if you move on anyone you’ll be dead in 48 hours, or discussing NATO’s expansion/involvement, or whatever. The point is it can and has been done. Acting like this was unavoidable is nonsense.

 

[Bender]

We literally just spent the entirety of the last administration with no Russian invasions

That really doesnt prove jack ****. If you think Putin didnt spend a hour planning an Ukrainian invasion while Trump was president, you must be really, really naive.

The point is it can and has been done. Acting like this was unavoidable is nonsense.

It was avoidable if Ukraine would have been a part of NATO, preventing a Russian attack (which some do not seem to understand). Also, Putin was not interested in any intervention regarding Syria, Crimea, their cyber attacks, them killing random people with poisoning in the open street and so on.

Putin is one bad ************ in the bad sense. Trying to negotiate with him is extremely ******* hard. Merkel and Obama at least got him to laugh every once in a while... There is no normal relation with Russia. Their (Putin) world view varies from other countries in significant fashion regarding basic human rights.

 

[Gransapo]

I repeat: The NATO as an organization has never started a war and is incapable of doing so.

Its amazing how I have explained the concept of what the NATO is, yet people blatanly ignore it. So I will do it again, just for you: If the United States attack Korea whilst being a member of the NATO, this does not mean that the NATO has started the war. It means that the United States have started a war. The NATO is simply a military alliance targeted to protect (mainly) Europe from being attacked by Russia. Its why it was founded in the first place.

Edit: You can list all of the military activies by each member if you want to. Doesnt change the fact that I have stated. If all NATO members attacked Vietnam, it would be true. They didnt, so that makes it fairly easy

I am well aware of the NATO explanation that our 5th grade textbooks provided us and which you have regurgitated here ad nauseam. Are you aware of the no-fly zone NATO enforced over Bosnian airspace? Or the Banja Luka incident, NATO's first "combat"? Operation Deliberate Force? Operation Joint Guard? Operation Allied Force?

Most importantly, are you aware how WWI started?

 

[NC_Canes_11]

That really doesnt prove jack ****. If you think Putin didnt spend a hour planning an Ukrainian invasion while Trump was president, you must be really, really naive.


It was avoidable if Ukraine would have been a part of NATO, preventing a Russian attack (which some do not seem to understand). Also, Putin was not interested in any intervention regarding Syria, Crimea, their cyber attacks, them killing random people with poisoning in the open street and so on.

Putin is one bad ************ in the bad sense. Trying to negotiate with him is extremely ******* hard. Merkel and Obama at least got him to laugh every once in a while... There is no normal relation with Russia. Their (Putin) world view varies from other countries in significant fashion regarding basic human rights.

If it doesn’t matter then why didn’t he invade? This attack sure isn’t sophisticated enough to have taken 4 years to plan I’ll tell you that.

You lee saying Putin is awful and everybody gets it, but what are you gonna do about it? Inviting Ukraine into NATO would do nothing but make Putin do exactly what he’s doing right now. He’s not scared of anybody in Europe. His only concern is the US. And I have a hard time believeing we would have agreed to let in Ukraine knowing that would happen.

Xi is worse than Putin. Are you gonna be calling for war and his assassination when he takes Taiwan? What about South Africa? What about the Middle East? Do you wanna take your chances with them bc they’re mean to people and their world views are different? Nobody is saying what they’re doing is ok but again, not every problem is fixable.

 

[Gransapo]

If it doesn’t matter then why didn’t he invade? This attack sure isn’t sophisticated enough to have taken 4 years to plan I’ll tell you that.

You lee saying Putin is awful and everybody gets it, but what are you gonna do about it? Inviting Ukraine into NATO would do nothing but make Putin do exactly what he’s doing right now. He’s not scared of anybody in Europe. His only concern is the US. And I have a hard time believeing we would have agreed to let in Ukraine knowing that would happen.

Xi is worse than Putin. Are you gonna be calling for war and his assassination when he takes Taiwan? What about South Africa? What about the Middle East? Do you wanna take your chances with them bc they’re mean to people and their world views are different? Nobody is saying what they’re doing is ok but again, not every problem is fixable.

This is the end game. A return to the Cold War and the military boondoggle it provides. China's tacit approval of Russian action is for the sole purpose of allowing it precedent to do the same in Taiwan.

 

[NC_Canes_11]

That really doesnt prove jack ****. If you think Putin didnt spend a hour planning an Ukrainian invasion while Trump was president, you must be really, really naive.


It was avoidable if Ukraine would have been a part of NATO, preventing a Russian attack (which some do not seem to understand). Also, Putin was not interested in any intervention regarding Syria, Crimea, their cyber attacks, them killing random people with poisoning in the open street and so on.

Putin is one bad ************ in the bad sense. Trying to negotiate with him is extremely ******* hard. Merkel and Obama at least got him to laugh every once in a while... There is no normal relation with Russia. Their (Putin) world view varies from other countries in significant fashion regarding basic human rights.

Let me explain it to you in terms of US politics. There’s a party on the verge of getting wiped out in November. War against Russia is polling even lower than their approval ratings. If Ukraine was invited into NATO and Russia attacked leading to Article 5 being discussed, the US would shoot it down. And we still wouldn’t show up in any real numbers. If they did, the party would almost cease to exist outside of maybe 3 states. It’s political suicide. There’s social media now. Nobody would’ve fallen for “WMD’s in Iraq” today.

 

[NC_Canes_11]

This is the end game. A return to the Cold War and the military boondoggle it provides. China's tacit approval of Russian action is for the sole purpose of allowing it precedent to do the same in Taiwan.

Yep. We’ve pushed Russia and China together. The world is realigning and we are gonna be on the outside looking in, if big changes aren’t made.

 

[Bender]

Are you aware of the no-fly zone NATO enforced over Bosnian airspace? Or the Banja Luka incident, NATO's first "combat"? Operation Deliberate Force? Operation Joint Guard? Operation Allied Force?

No-fly zone: Founded to protect UN soldiers during the Bosnian War.
Banja Luka incident: Retaliation towards Bosnian Air Craft after they bombed a target whilst being warned not to do so.
Operation Deliberate Force: Issued against Bosnia after their repetitive attacks towards UN soliders and Croatian soldiers in protective UN zones. Led to the Dayton Agreement that ended the war.
Operation Joined Guardian: Founded to protect Kosovo from Yugoslavia because of massive crimes from Yugoslavia.
Operation Allied Force: Protective action towards Yugoslavia because they didnt stop killing people from the Kosovo. Highly discussed to this day due to incredibly poor execution.

You start to bore me. You really do.

 

[Bender]

Most importantly, are you aware how WWI started?

I have seen some incredible stupid comparisons in my life, but this one takes the cake. Its so bad it deserves a thread ban.

 

[Bender]

If it doesn’t matter then why didn’t he invade? This attack sure isn’t sophisticated enough to have taken 4 years to plan I’ll tell you that.

The attack is how old now? A few days?

And every war needs years of planning and development to be executed.

Inviting Ukraine into NATO would do nothing but make Putin do exactly what he’s doing right now

This is not true. If Ukraine were to be a NATO member and Russia would still attack them, US would be forced to go to war with Russia. Russia has no interest in doing that and has protested against the idea of Ukraine getting into NATO for several years now.

Are you gonna be calling for war and his assassination when he takes Taiwan? What about South Africa? What about the Middle East? Do you wanna take your chances with them bc they’re mean to people and their world views are different?

People who start war and kill others should absolutely be killed, yes. This isnt even a "they are mean to people", Idek why you are ridiculing the situation with such stupid sentences.

Its 2022. People have enough history sources to go back on how **** war is. This isnt even a debate at this point.

Nobody is saying what they’re doing is ok but again, not every problem is fixable

Cool, so we just let people die alone? If thats your choice, go for it, but if you stop caring like that, leave the discussion then.