The TE room

Youre missing my point. There’s some film, sure. But we can’t travel or meet with him or his coaches, no spring ball, no recent camps ... it’s a lot harder right now than normal times. And it’s harder to evaluate non-local kids than local kids even during normal times.
It sounds like Lashlee has been recruiting the kid for years and the kid is either from here and/or has family here. All that really would be missing is any additional spring practice tape.

I have way more of an issue with us having a small board until the early signing day, missing on kids, then rapidly expanding the board and having to do all of our evals that should be over a multi-year period in the span of two months. That is what makes it harder than it needs to be to properly evaluate and vet out all of the intangibles that you don't see on film, regardless of location.
 
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Glad our TE class is all done now. 5 TE"s on the roster is a good number and that's what we will have for 2021 unless Jordan stays then we will have 6.
 
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Some great stuff today in another interview Arroyo gave Canesport. He said the final schools he was considering were Miami, Alabama, LSU and USC. All the hype that it was TAMU and Miami was wrong. He said TAMU wasn't in it at that point, even though he had just had the "virtual visit".

He also said that he committed to all the coaches on a Zoom call - Fields was on his boat. Arroyo asked them what they would do if he committed right there and Field said he would jump off his boat into the water. So Arroyo committed. Field stood up and jumped in, hat and all! All the other coaches went and jumped in their pools. LOL Sounds like it was great. He waited for an edit from Miami to announce yesterday.
 
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Youre missing my point. There’s some film, sure. But we can’t travel or meet with him or his coaches, no spring ball, no recent camps ... it’s a lot harder right now than normal times. And it’s harder to evaluate non-local kids than local kids even during normal times.

The bolded portion is true for the local kids as well. No face-to-face recruiting, no spring ball, and no camps the last couple months.
Recruiting, overall, may be more difficult because of the diminished spring evaluation period. But that's true no matter where you are recruiting these kids. It's not like there are camps or spring games going on in South Florida right now.

If anything, the kids away from home are comparatively easier to recruit at the moment (in comparison to non-COVID-19 times). There are no local camps, jamborees/spring games, or 7 v. 7 camps going on out of town that our coaches can't get to (and where local coaches might be in attendance). All communication is via telephone, teleconference, e-mail, or social media. Nobody is watching anyone live (which tends to be easier to accomplish for the local coaches, as you pointed out). Everyone is relying on film and reported measurables. So the comparative advantage being the "local" coach has on the evaluation part of recruiting is basically ZERO right now.
 
The bolded portion is true for the local kids as well. No face-to-face recruiting, no spring ball, and no camps the last couple months.
Recruiting, overall, may be more difficult because of the diminished spring evaluation period. But that's true no matter where you are recruiting these kids. It's not like there are camps or spring games going on in South Florida right now.
Sure, it's different locally and nationally -- but that just highlights the benefit of local. Local kids already know the school, area, many of the kids, often coaches and former players. We almost certainly know their teammates, coaches, maybe relatives. These things help with assessment and familiarity.

If anything, the kids away from home are comparatively easier to recruit at the moment (in comparison to non-COVID-19 times). There are no local camps, jamborees/spring games, or 7 v. 7 camps going on out of town that our coaches can't get to (and where local coaches might be in attendance). All communication is via telephone, teleconference, e-mail, or social media. Nobody is watching anyone live (which tends to be easier to accomplish for the local coaches, as you pointed out). Everyone is relying on film and reported measurables. So the comparative advantage being the "local" coach has on the evaluation part of recruiting is basically ZERO right now.
Maybe. They may seem easier to recruit at the moment, but the important question is whether that's a misleading signal, or will last. Because recruiting rules will go back to normal. We could spend time on kids who are 'interested' now because it's different and no one can really get on them. But will they end up being kids who want to leave town? My guess is when COVID passes, it's going to more likely that kids stay local than the alternative. The important question isn't what kids are interested in 'right now,' but rather whether we have a sense of what they'll be interested in when it's time to decide.
 
LCE, putting this in a separate response because it’s just about specific kids....


These were different evaluation failings. Herbert was the most obvious. He wasn’t good. People read too much into an injury and projected him beyond it. He was highly rated for whatever reason, probably camp, but I don’t think good evaluators of OL wanted him, which is why we got an American Heritage kid late cycle on OL. JMO.

Perry is a kid whose athletic ability made you ooh and ahh. The issue with him is focus and decision-making. Those shortcomings aren’t as obvious in Hs or the camp circuit, so a staff has to identify the extent of the issue before answering it. The evaluation question with Perry was could he do it/get much better at it. We either didn’t frame the question well or we were wrong about it.

Donaldson is a different issue. Physically he can do it. His weight got away from him and he’s had injuries now. I think every staff takes him and the question is whether our culture and support can help keep him on track. I don’t consider him a blown eval. Maybe Butch would have identified something in his personality to be wary of, and Butch wasn’t generally a giant OL guy anyhow for the most part, but I suspect Butch would have taken him, been tougher on him and helped him succeed.

If you can remember i was one on the board that said Herbert was a project and i wasnt that high on him and didnt expect starting ability until year 3 or so...and i was probably the one that saw him the most on board live.
 
If you can remember i was one on the board that said Herbert was a project and i wasnt that high on him and didnt expect starting ability until year 3 or so...and i was probably the one that saw him the most on board live.
I do remember. You were one of the views that influenced my perspective.

Edit: i have learned over a long time on this and other sites who knows what they’re talking about and when to listen. Gogeta is on the list, in part because he measures his comment, doesn’t have a view on everyone, and tells you why he thinks what he thinks. When there is consensus among the smart, non-kool aid drinking local football watchers, it’s almost always more accurate than the rankings or our staff’s choices, and it’s been that way for the 20 years I’ve paid attention to the various sites.
 
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Sure, it's different locally and nationally -- but that just highlights the benefit of local. Local kids already know the school, area, many of the kids, often coaches and former players. We almost certainly know their teammates, coaches, maybe relatives. These things help with assessment and familiarity.

I think we agree that local coaches typically have a comparative advantage over non-local coaches in recruiting local kids because of proximity, access, relationships, and other factors that essentially equate to an information advantage to the local coach (though we may disagree over how great of an advantage this actually is at any point in time). If there are fewer new data points (i.e., no spring games, no camps, no 7 v. 7, no visits) because of shelter-in-place measures, then the information asymmetry between the local and non-local coach is (compared to normal recruiting circumstances) diminished. So for the time being, the comparative advantage a local coach typically possess may well be blunted to some degree.

That's not to say certain kids won't have their own reasons for staying home in this (or any) climate, or their own preferences that will affect their individual recruitment. But when it comes to making evaluations and getting face-time with recruits, local coaches have a somewhat diminished edge over non-local coaches in light of the current restrictions.

Maybe. They may seem easier to recruit at the moment, but the important question is whether that's a misleading signal, or will last. Because recruiting rules will go back to normal. We could spend time on kids who are 'interested' now because it's different and no one can really get on them. But will they end up being kids who want to leave town? My guess is when COVID passes, it's going to more likely that kids stay local than the alternative. The important question isn't what kids are interested in 'right now,' but rather whether we have a sense of what they'll be interested in when it's time to decide.

Whether it's June, July, August, or later, recruiting rules will certainly start to normalize at some point. But timing is critical, and the individuality of these recruits and their timetables for making decisions matters. And you absolutely can't not not recruit an interested kid today because of a general belief their interest may change once restrictions are eased. Consider, for instance, that many HS seniors want to be committed before they even begin their senior year of HS to avoid the distraction. For kids with that goal in mind, the spring and early summer months can be critical to the ultimate signing decision.

As far as spending time on kids who may just stay closer to home in the end, that is always a risk in recruiting (and vice-versa... spending time on kids who ultimately value getting far away from home). And any coach worth a **** wants commits who will be committed on signing day (not just 6 months earlier). COVID-19 or not, part of a coach's job is to get an honest feel for how big a factor distance will be in the recruitment, and whether any given recruit is likely to stick to his verbal commitment. When the world starts to normalize, some kids may find themselves thinking differently then versus now. These are, after all, teenagers. And anyone who has spent any amount of time with 16-18 year olds knows the things they consider important can change from one day to the next. COVID-19 may effect that, but the often fickle nature of teenagers should always be considered by coaches during any given recruitment.

At the end of the day, these are all individualized recruitments, and coaches need to honestly gauge their likelihood of success in any given recruitment. COVID-19 or not, that is always the case. The greatest difference between this recruiting cycle and past cycles is, for the time being, there is currently a window where the comparative advantage possessed by local coaches over OOS coaches is smaller than usual (and perhaps ever). It could disappear in the next few months, but it's there now. It seems wise to capitalize on it.
 
I think we agree that local coaches typically have a comparative advantage over non-local coaches in recruiting local kids because of proximity, access, relationships, and other factors that essentially equate to an information advantage to the local coach (though we may disagree over how great of an advantage this actually is at any point in time). If there are fewer new data points (i.e., no spring games, no camps, no 7 v. 7, no visits) because of shelter-in-place measures, then the information asymmetry between the local and non-local coach is (compared to normal recruiting circumstances) diminished. So for the time being, the comparative advantage a local coach typically possess may well be blunted to some degree.

That's not to say certain kids won't have their own reasons for staying home in this (or any) climate, or their own preferences that will affect their individual recruitment. But when it comes to making evaluations and getting face-time with recruits, local coaches have a somewhat diminished edge over non-local coaches in light of the current restrictions.
It sounds like we may disagree here. I think the more important advantage locally is regarding evaluations, not ‘selling’. That advantage is heightened when other coaches with less access and knowledge and relationships cannot gather new information. That helps us locally and hinders us away from home during this covid climate. It’s easy enough to send offers, and I have no problem with us playing that game, but my point is actually evaluating is harder with less access to info.

Whether it's June, July, August, or later, recruiting rules will certainly start to normalize at some point. But timing is critical, and the individuality of these recruits and their timetables for making decisions matters. And you absolutely can't not not recruit an interested kid today because of a general belief their interest may change once restrictions are eased.
Agreed. I haven't said otherwise. I simply expressed a question about evalautions in this environment. If the argument is offer now and figure it out later, I understand.

As far as spending time on kids who may just stay closer to home in the end, that is always a risk in recruiting (and vice-versa... spending time on kids who ultimately value getting far away from home). And any coach worth a **** wants commits who will be committed on signing day (not just 6 months earlier). COVID-19 or not, part of a coach's job is to get an honest feel for how big a factor distance will be in the recruitment, and whether any given recruit is likely to stick to his verbal commitment.
I’ll be honest, my concern is our coaches haven‘t proven they are worth a **** when it comes to recruiting.
 
It sounds like we may disagree here. I think the more important advantage locally is regarding evaluations, not ‘selling’. That advantage is heightened when other coaches with less access and knowledge and relationships cannot gather new information. That helps us locally and hinders us away from home during this covid climate. It’s easy enough to send offers, and I have no problem with us playing that game, but my point is actually evaluating is harder with less access to info.

I agree the advantage local recruiters typically have is in evaluations, not in selling. That is what I was speaking about when I was discussing access to information and information asymmetry. And I think we agree that this is the more critical component to recruiting (evaluating over selling, though I'll gladly take both).

Where we appear to disagree is I don't believe local coaches are currently in a superior position to gain new knowledge over non-local coaches because of the restrictions in place. No matter where a coach lives, he can call a recruit's coach and ask for film, look up prior testing information and measurables, face-time with kids to learn about them, and otherwise investigate the kid. On the flip side, there are no camps (up close look plus competition), 7 v 7 (better comp environment for most kids), spring games (good for discerning growth) or visits (where coaches can learn about a kid's character and confirm measurables) going on right now. These activities tend to benefit the local coaches, who should have better access. So while I agree that the entire process is hindered right now (because access to new information is much more difficult for everyone), it disproportionately affects local recruiters more strongly than it does non-local recruiters (because that easier access is not happening right now), thereby diminishing their comparative advantage.

Otherwise, 100% agreement on the non-quoted portion. And I don't trust most of our coaches (in particular at HC and on the defensive side of the football) to evaluate and recruit.
 
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I disagree. It’s obviously easier to evaluate local kids. You have more data and more access, generally over a longer period of time. You often know family and many coaches.

Just because it’s harder to evaluate far away kids doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. It does mean you need to have a framework to assess which ones merit the consideration, what your key questions are, and how you will assess them, because evals take resources and non-local kids take resources.

I brought it up because it’s an unusual time in cfb history given covid restructions on recruiting. So a natural question for us on new commitments who haven't ever been to our campus is ’what do we know’ and how do we know it. This kid is a new commitment and non-local, hence the question.

TBH, I’ll be interested to see how we approach recruiting and evals all year, because it is so obvious we have not done ot well in the past.

Our OC evaluated him. The same guy that just came from the same state. This one isn’t hard to grasp. Just like we’re allowing our WR Coach to make offers on OOS guys who he has evaluated. They’ve established relationships over the last 2-3 years in their old territories- would be dumb for Manny to keep them from cashing in on those relationships.
 
Our OC evaluated him. The same guy that just came from the same state. This one isn’t hard to grasp. Just like we’re allowing our WR Coach to make offers on OOS guys who he has evaluated. They’ve established relationships over the last 2-3 years in their old territories- would be dumb for Manny to keep them from cashing in on those relationships.
Spoken like a guy that has little time or interest in evaluations.

Do we have a process for vetting evaluations? Did we follow it? We have a new OC - did we hire him because of his evaluation skills? How did we link in position coach and head coach sign-off? Does Manmy even take evaluations seriously or is he just interested in commitments? Does he know what he’s looking for in kids and positions? How’d he align on that with a brand new staff, if he does? Because he sure didn’t seem to in the past.

It’s fine to be excited by a commitment. I haven’t said one word critical of the kid. But understanding how this staff evaluates kids is really key to understamding whether this is more of the same that we have been bad at for 20 years or a sign that something is turning. It’s possible that they pulled a rabbit out of a hat here and he’ll be great even without a good eval process, but our history shows a lot of top rated kids we pulled from elsewhere were bad evals.
 
Spoken like a guy that has little time or interest in evaluations.

Do we have a process for vetting evaluations? Did we follow it? We have a new OC - did we hire him because of his evaluation skills? How did we link in position coach and head coach sign-off? Does Manmy even take evaluations seriously or is he just interested in commitments? Does he know what he’s looking for in kids and positions? How’d he align on that with a brand new staff, if he does? Because he sure didn’t seem to in the past.

It’s fine to be excited by a commitment. I haven’t said one word critical of the kid. But understanding how this staff evaluates kids is really key to understamding whether this is more of the same that we have been bad at for 20 years or a sign that something is turning. It’s possible that they pulled a rabbit out of a hat here and he’ll be great even without a good eval process, but our history shows a lot of top rated kids we pulled from elsewhere were bad evals.

You asked a question about proximity - and how we were legitimately able to evaluate this kid. I answered that question specifically. This current offensive staff (As a group) doesn’t have a history here. They only have a history of development at their previous stops. So we can’t leverage our previous failures, with a different staff, against their potential success. The WR coach has talked specifically about how he evaluates guys. But, I’m not sure if there’s an interview out there detailing how Rhett and Fields evaluate skilled players.

At the end of the day, I don’t think we’re in a position to say if the evaluation on this TE was a bad Eval or not - solely based on current proximity and CV19 circumstances.

We don’t know what what we don’t know. With that said, I would prefer to have Diaz focus on defensive evaluations. Im not sure he’s skilled enough to evaluate both sides of the ball - from a future development perspective. So. I’m not going to go crazy about his PERSONAL approach to evaluating offensive players at the moment. I’ll CAUTIOUSLY trust Rhett & Co. until we have outcomes to measure.
 
You asked a question about proximity - and how we were legitimately able to evaluate this kid. I answered that question specifically. This current offensive staff (As a group) doesn’t have a history here. They only have a history of development at their previous stops. So we can’t leverage our previous failures, with a different staff, against their potential success. The WR coach has talked specifically about how he evaluates guys. But, I’m not sure if there’s an interview out there detailing how Rhett and Fields evaluate skilled players.

At the end of the day, I don’t think we’re in a position to say if the evaluation on this TE was a bad Eval or not - solely based on current proximity and CV19 circumstances.

We don’t know what what we don’t know. With that said, I would prefer to have Diaz focus on defensive evaluations. Im not sure he’s skilled enough to evaluate both sides of the ball - from a future development perspective. So. I’m not going to go crazy about his PERSONAL approach to evaluating offensive players at the moment. I’ll CAUTIOUSLY trust Rhett & Co. until we have outcomes to measure.
We agree on that. I have not suggested it’s a bad eval. I asked about process - this is a topic I have mentioned before and am increasingly interested in given the mounting evidence that bad evals are a key piece of our two decade decline. Without a good process, evals are a crap shoot.

I don’t expect Manny to be the eval guy personally, but he is the head coach and he has to own the process by which we evaluate, offer and take commitments (and stay on them), or we’re left with hope as a strategy, which rarely works out.

I am pretty sure Nick Saban doesn’t turn over evals to brand new assistants outside of a detailed process to vet them.
 
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