Takeaway from the coach’s roundtable on ESPNU

[Ethnicsands]

I’m glad you’re saying this. I’ve been saying this as well for a while now, this development stuff is overrated. Yes of course there is development, techniques are taught, etc, we do need good coaches.

But if you’re not starting with legit talent, weather through bullseye evaluations, or kick *** five star recruiting, or a combination of both, I don’t care how much development you do. You are just not going to get there if the raw talent is limited.

Man it is nice to see some others on this page.

 

[The Franchise]

Agree 100%. That is a key to his success, and it is central to evaluating that you pick kids who will develop themselves and compete. Butch got that.

I've always said that was Booch's greatest gift. He had an unbelievable ability to evaluate character and mental toughness.

He wasn't the greatest recruiter in the world, but he was arguably the best evaluator. He lost a fcking kid (Randle??) to La Tech of all places. His gift was evaluation, and he used that gift to build the best roster ever assembled. Not surprisingly, that roster contained a lot of guys who weren't necessarily all that highly rated coming out of HS.

 

[DMoney]

It's not development. It's deployment. We don't put our talent in position to succeed.

As a result, our teams perform below their talent and our players get drafted below their talent. That's why they stick around and get paid in the pros. Everything becomes relatively equal, so their ability shines through.

The 2016 defense looked a lot more talented than the 2015 defense because they were deployed correctly. We need a similar turnaround on offense, which will then allow us to recruit bigger fish.

 

[BoxingRobes]

I agree with you - Miami's #1 WR's are nice players, but are probably only competing for the #3 WR at Clemson, Bama, OSU, etc. It's a totally different level.

Ahmon Richards is the only guy we've had that's in that conversation. For all the "What went wrong with the 2018 team" conversations - in my mind losing Richards was the #1 factor. I think it's very underrated how huge of a blow that was to our offense. It's a shame that injury ended his career.

Add in these top teams have QB's like Tua, Lawrence, Burrow, Hurts, Watson, Winston - plus RB's like CEH, Etienne, Jacobs, Zeke, Henry, Freeman.

When I look at our QB/WR/RB - I think the gap between Miami and the big boys is larger than fans want to admit, and the gap between Miami and Coastal teams like UNC, Pitt, etc. is smaller than fans want to admit.

Its incredibly huge.

@Ethnicsands , myself, and others have been pounding the table over this for ages. Yeah, we put a lot of guys in the NFL and get guys drafted...but its not players that matter unfortunately. We've had the occasional guy like that...Richards (I guess, I won't fight it, but he wasn't JaMarr Chase, Jerry Jeudy, or Tee Higgins IMO), Duke Johnson, Jimmy Graham, Lamar Miller, David Njoku...but they weren't all on the same team together and we havent had a collection of talent like top teams in CFB have had.

Even if you look at Oklahoma in recent vintage...Mayfield, Murray, Hurts...Joe Mixon, Rodney Anderson, Mark Andrews, Hollywood Brown, DeDe Westbrook, CeeDee Lamb, Charleston Rambo, Samaje Perine, Sterling Shepard, Kennedy Brooks...like they've had DUDES on offense, too.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

It's not development. It's deployment. We don't put our talent in position to succeed.

As a result, our teams perform below their talent and our players get drafted below their talent. That's why they stick around and get paid in the pros. Everything becomes relatively equal, so their ability shines through.

The 2016 defense looked a lot more talented than the 2015 defense because they were deployed correctly. We need a similar turnaround on offense, which will then allow us to recruit bigger fish.

I’ve seen you post this before about getting drafted below our talent, other than maybe 2-3 players over the last 10-12 years, I just don’t think I agree. I’d like to see some examples of this. O. Vernon? Who else?

I think some make the argument, and have made the argument, that we’ve been drafted above our talent level in several cases

 

[brock]

It's not development. It's deployment. We don't put our talent in position to succeed.

As a result, our teams perform below their talent and our players get drafted below their talent. That's why they stick around and get paid in the pros. Everything becomes relatively equal, so their ability shines through.

The 2016 defense looked a lot more talented than the 2015 defense because they were deployed correctly. We need a similar turnaround on offense, which will then allow us to recruit bigger fish.

Don’t see how people don’t understand this, facts dmoney

 

[DMoney]

I’ve seen you post this before about getting drafted below our talent, other than maybe 2-3 players over the last 10-12 years, I just don’t think I agree. I’d like to see some examples of this. O. Vernon? Who else?

Here is a long-term study (15 years) finding that Miami players overproduce their draft position more than any other school in the country by an enormous margin. It begins in 2002, so it catches the tail end of our run. But we've been bad on the field for the majority of the study.

College football's best (and worst) NFL factories

Ever wonder which college programs produce the best NFL running backs? How about the most long-term starters or the most Pro Bowlers? We dug through data from the past 15 drafts to find out which schools make the grade at the next level.

www.espn.com

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

Here is a long-term study (15 years) finding that Miami players overproduce their draft position more than any other school in the country by an enormous margin. It begins in 2002, so it catches the tail end of our run. But we've been bad on the field for the majority of the study.

College football's best (and worst) NFL factories

Ever wonder which college programs produce the best NFL running backs? How about the most long-term starters or the most Pro Bowlers? We dug through data from the past 15 drafts to find out which schools make the grade at the next level.

www.espn.com

Does not compute for me.

If they’re using players like Andre Johnson and Vince Wilfork in their analysis, you know this thing is overweighted towards the early 2000’s - that’s almost 20 years ago

 

[LuCane]

It's not development. It's deployment. We don't put our talent in position to succeed.

As a result, our teams perform below their talent and our players get drafted below their talent. That's why they stick around and get paid in the pros. Everything becomes relatively equal, so their ability shines through.

The 2016 defense looked a lot more talented than the 2015 defense because they were deployed correctly. We need a similar turnaround on offense, which will then allow us to recruit bigger fish.

The 2016 defense is a great example because our DL didn't suddenly get "developed." They "looked better" because they were asked to do different things. This is a really common misconception in evaluating player progress while in college. Is Tutu Atwell "better" than all of our guys last year? I don't think so, but he sure as **** looked better catching 69 passes for nearly 1300 yards.

 

[DMoney]

Does not compute for me.

If they’re using players like Andre Johnson and Vince Wilfork in their analysis, you know this thing is overweighted towards the early 2000’s - that’s almost 20 years ago

They use every year from 2002 to 2017. It is a 15-year-study. Miami only finished Top 10 on the field in three of those 15 years (20%).

Also, while those early 00s players help, they don’t disproportionately impact the “overperformance” metric because they were already high picks.

 

[Mnhurricane]

We no longer have plus matchups with playmakers which is absurd for how many good and great one should come from the area. The difference is def talent and coaching but good lord the talent gap from LSU to Miami is expansive

 

[Gooner#44]

When you see the leap LSU took under Joe Brady it is obvious what the most important factor is. They had all the same offensive players the year before and the offense got 65% better. Only one variable changed... come on guys

 

[DTP]

IMO it’s not about our reputation. It’s about the nfl knowing pretty well how to assess kids.

Go back and take a look at some of the draft classes from 2002-2006 ish. I mean there were plenty of super talented guys who deserved to be first rounders but there's quite a few guys who not only got drafted but got drafted fairly early simply off reputation. Did you know Matt Walters was a 5th rounder? You can't tell me that guy gets drafted at all if he played for some 7 win team. Andrew Williams was picked in the 3rd and he wasn't even a starter. Kevin Everett, 3rd round. Just a few picks after Frank friggin' Gore. Orien Harris and Leon Williams both in the 4th round of the same draft. Rashad Butler, 3rd Round. Sinorice Moss, 2nd round. Marcus Maxey was a 5th round pick. It's not that these guys were bad players, some of them had nice pro careers but man there's a lot of reaching going on here.

 

[DTP]

When you see the leap LSU took under Joe Brady it is obvious what the most important factor is. They had all the same offensive players the year before and the offense got 65% better. Only one variable changed... come on guys

It's really that simple. They hired a coach who better used the players available. They didn't make any other changes. They had almost all the same players. ****, they still had the same offensive coordinator. They just brought in a guy to introduce Air Raid/ Spread passing concepts. There's no secret. No special motivational tactic. No magic fairy dust that makes average players into great players. It's simply utilizing the talent you have (which LSU had plenty of) in a better manner through X's and O's.

Everyone thought Miami had no talent in the front seven after the 2015 season. Manny Diaz changes the philosophy to better utilize the guys he had and all of the sudden Miami is among the nation's leaders in sacks. We've already seen it happen on defense, why people don't think the same thing can happen on offense is beyond me.

 

[Gooner#44]

It's really that simple. They hired a coach who better used the players available. They didn't make any other changes. They had almost all the same players. ****, they still had the same offensive coordinator. They just brought in a guy to introduce Air Raid/ Spread passing concepts. There's no secret. No special motivational tactic. No magic fairy dust that makes average players into great players. It's simply utilizing the talent you have (which LSU had plenty of) in a better manner through X's and O's.

Everyone thought Miami had no talent in the front seven after the 2015 season. Manny Diaz changes the philosophy to better utilize the guys he had and all of the sudden Miami is among the nation's leaders in sacks. We've already seen it happen on defense, why people don't think the same thing can happen on offense is beyond me.

BINGO, I'm sure many LSU fans were questioning their teams talents in 2018. Turns out the talents were already there, they just needed to be put in the right situation. Joe Brady does that on a elite level.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

They use every year from 2002 to 2017. It is a 15-year-study. Miami only finished Top 10 on the field in three of those 15 years (20%).

Also, while those early 00s players help, they don’t disproportionately impact the “overperformance” metric because they were already high picks.

I’m not denying deployment can’t be an issue, analogous to appropriate scheming vs misuse, my base argument is that it’s actual overall talent, not development or deployment, that’s been the fundamental flaw. Since around 2004 give or take.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

When you see the leap LSU took under Joe Brady it is obvious what the most important factor is. They had all the same offensive players the year before and the offense got 65% better. Only one variable changed... come on guys

It's really that simple. They hired a coach who better used the players available. They didn't make any other changes. They had almost all the same players. ****, they still had the same offensive coordinator. They just brought in a guy to introduce Air Raid/ Spread passing concepts. There's no secret. No special motivational tactic. No magic fairy dust that makes average players into great players. It's simply utilizing the talent you have (which LSU had plenty of) in a better manner through X's and O's.

Everyone thought Miami had no talent in the front seven after the 2015 season. Manny Diaz changes the philosophy to better utilize the guys he had and all of the sudden Miami is among the nation's leaders in sacks. We've already seen it happen on defense, why people don't think the same thing can happen on offense is beyond me.

But a huge piece of good talent was already there. I’m talking about a level of talent just under the Alabama’s of the world. Not even comparable to Miami. Look at LSU‘s class rankings for the last 10 years. They’ve always had a nice stable of talent, but had an awful offenses before 2019.

We are nowhere close to having gotten that kind of talent during the same time period. Not only that our evaluations were for shlt

 

[Gooner#44]

But a huge piece of good talent was already there. I’m talking about a level of talent just under the Alabama’s of the world. Not even comparable to Miami. Look at LSU‘s class rankings for the last 10 years. They’ve always had a nice stable of talent, but had an awful offenses before 2019.

We are nowhere close to having gotten that kind of talent during the same time period. Not only that our evaluations were for shlt

Burrow - transfer QB buried on another teams depth chart asked to leave and a pedestrian QB @ LSU in 2018
CEH - Low 3* RB recruit
Jefferson - Low 3* WR recruit
Moss - Low 3* WR recruit
Chase - 4* WR recruit


They also had a 50+% increase in offensive output with the same offense returning

open your eyes guys, the answer is right there, just gotta look

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

Burrow = transfer QB buried on another teams depth chart and a pedestrian QB in 2018
CEH - Low 3* RB recruit
Jefferson - Low 3* WR recruit
Moss - Low 3* WR recruit
Chase - 4* WR recruit


They also had a 65% increase in offensive output with the same offense returning

open your eyes guys, the answer is right there, just gotta look

That literally doesn’t prove anything. Get their class rankings. And you’re making my point for me with that tiny list of Burrow, Jefferson and the rest. Good evaluations.

Of course their offense improved they married talent - with a good scheme. I’m not arguing against that. I’m saying that our talent has been nowhere near close. Our talent and evaluations have been barely top 15-20 in the last 15 years. If that.

 

[Gooner#44]

That literally doesn’t prove anything. Get their class rankings. And you’re making my point for me with Buttow, Jefferson and the rest. Good evaluations.

Of course their offense improved they married talent - with a good scheme. I’m not arguing against that. I’m saying that our talent has been nowhere near close. Our talent and evaluations have been barely top 15-20 in the last 15 years. If that.

LSU offense 2018 (virtually the same team - Joe Brady) - 2870 yards passing 17 TDs, 2250 yards rushing, 29 TDS. So a total of 4225 yards and 46 TDs

2019 (added Joe Brady) - 6025 yards passing, 61 TDs, 2510 yards rushing, 32 TDs. So a total of 8535 yards and 93 TDs

Done with mostly 3 star-4 star recruits on offense, and some real stud defensive recruiting classes


You were sayin????????