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Takeaway from the coach’s roundtable on ESPNU

DMoney said:
They use every year from 2002 to 2017. It is a 15-year-study. Miami only finished Top 10 on the field in three of those 15 years (20%).

Also, while those early 00s players help, they don’t disproportionately impact the “overperformance” metric because they were already high picks.
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This is extremely skewed. The last 10 years look drastically different from the last 15 years.

Drafted 2002 - 2007 - 22 Miami players started in the NFL for 4+ years. All these guys were part of the 2003 recruiting class or earlier
Drafted 2008 - 2015 - 11 Miami players started in the NFL for 4+ years. All these guys were part of the 2004 recruiting class or later

I've just copied & pasted what I posted exactly 1 year year ago:

FROM THE LAST 10 DRAFTS - I included all 48 players and 2 UFA's - 50 players total

Played Above Draft Position (13 Players - 26%)
3rd - Olivier Vernon, Duke Johnson, Allen Bailey, Brandon Linder, Jimmy Graham
4th - Lamar Miller, Travis Benjamin, Chris Herndon
6th - Anthony Chickillo
7th - Adrian Colbert, Seantrel Henderson
UFA - Sam Shields, Allen Hurns

Played Below Draft Position (10 Players - 20%)
1st - Ereck Flowers, Artie Burns, Phillip Dorsett
2nd - Brandon Harris
3rd - Chad Thomas, Clive Walford, DVD
4th - Mark Walton
5th - Brandon McGee, Corn Elder (I included these 2 because they were Top 150 players, taken 149th and 152 overall)


Played Close to Draft Position (27 Players - 54%)
1st - David Njoku
2nd - Orlando Franklin, Denzel Perryman
3rd - Leonard Hankerson, Sean Spence
4th - Daryl Sharpton, Colin McCarthy, Rayshawn Jenkins, Deon Bush, Jon Feliciano, Jason Fox
5th - RJ McIntosh, Danny Isidora
6th - Spencer Adkins, Richard Gordon, Mike James, Pat O'Donnell, Matt Bosher, AQM, Tommy Streeter, Brandon Washington, Brad Kaaya, Braxton Berrios
7th - Stacey Coley, Dedrick Epps, Marquez Williams, Kendrick Norton


This is all VERY SUBJECTIVE. I highlighted what I think are my most questionable calls - I've got no problem if you disagree with them. But I think I'm pretty close on the rest. I only included the obvious UFA's.

But overall - Miami guys only outplay their draft positions only a slightly higher % than they're drafted too high. Most are valued about right.
 
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@DMoney once again doing mental gymnastics in this thread?

@Ethnicsands
tenor.gif
 
Gooner#44 said:
LSU offense 2018 (virtually the same team - Joe Brady) - 2870 yards passing 17 TDs, 2250 yards rushing, 29 TDS. So a total of 4225 yards and 46 TDs

2019 (added Joe Brady) - 6025 yards passing, 61 TDs, 2510 yards rushing, 32 TDs. So a total of 8535 yards and 93 TDs

Done with mostly 3 star-4 star recruits on offense, and some real stud defensive recruiting classes


You were sayin???????? :ttdg2m10mxvzxan.jpg:
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You’re arguing just to argue.. did you see where I posted they markedly improved on offense. That’s not even my point, which you keep missing.

Once you address my actual point, regarding talent, you can proceed. The high level talent was always there for LSU, you can’t dispute that.
 
DTP said:
It's really that simple. They hired a coach who better used the players available. They didn't make any other changes. They had almost all the same players. ****, they still had the same offensive coordinator. They just brought in a guy to introduce Air Raid/ Spread passing concepts. There's no secret. No special motivational tactic. No magic fairy dust that makes average players into great players. It's simply utilizing the talent you have (which LSU had plenty of) in a better manner through X's and O's.

Everyone thought Miami had no talent in the front seven after the 2015 season. Manny Diaz changes the philosophy to better utilize the guys he had and all of the sudden Miami is among the nation's leaders in sacks. We've already seen it happen on defense, why people don't think the same thing can happen on offense is beyond me.
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Wrote in agreement above, but the part of your post that stands out is the bolded. No idea what will happen this upcoming year, but how did Coach Diaz think Enos was going to introduce the concepts to radically change how our offensive players would be used? Mind you, I had no idea if Enos would be effective or not and hoped for the best. I just never thought it'd be radically different. Here, he ran more or less what we saw in a couple of his previous spots. It will forever be a mystery how, considering his own nearly reckless philosophy, he went with that style as his first pick.
 
LuCane said:
Wrote in agreement above, but the part of your post that stands out is the bolded. No idea what will happen this upcoming year, but how did Coach Diaz think Enos was going to introduce the concepts to radically change how our offensive players would be used? It will forever be a mystery how, considering his own nearly reckless philosophy, he went with that style as his first pick.
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Plenty of people thought that Miami had defensive line talent in 2015. It’s just that it was being used improperly. We had many discussions on this board regarding that.

And I don’t think anybody is arguing that our talent is not enough to create a huge jump on offense.
 
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BoxingRobes said:
@DMoney once again doing mental gymnastics in this thread?

@Ethnicsands
tenor.gif
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Just posting stats, my man. They tend to be more effective than GIFs.

Every month there is a new stat with the same result: the top NFL producing teams are the most successful programs, plus Miami. Then the usual suspects come here and try to explain it away. Rinse, repeat.

Ethnicsands said:
It’s about the nfl knowing pretty well how to assess kids.
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Agreed. So when the NFL keeps picking and paying our players, it should send a message about our talent.
 
OriginalCanesCanesCanes said:
Plenty of people thought that Miami had defensive line talent in 2015. It’s just that it was being used improperly. We had many discussions on this board regarding that.

And I don’t think anybody is arguing that our talent is not enough to create a huge jump on offense.
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Yes, I was one of them in 2015. It's all memorialized on the board.

I don't know how you determine "huge jump," but I anticipate we have enough talent on offense to make a huge jump from this past year. We don't have to be LSU 2019 to make a "huge" jump.
 
OriginalCanesCanesCanes said:
You’re arguing just to argue.. did you see where I posted they markedly improved on offense. That’s not even my point, which you keep missing.

Once you address my actual point, regarding talent, you can proceed. The high level talent was always there for LSU, you can’t dispute that.
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The point I just made and even gave you values is this: LSU WITH THE SAME EXACT PLAYERS as 2018 got over 50% better just by adding Joe Brady in 2019. In 2018 their fans sounded just like us about lack of offensive talent and output. Fact.

Until you grasp that you are just babbling nonsense about a team ranking boosted by their defensive classes when the offensive record breaking #s put up were mostly by 3-4 star guys of which we have plenty...…. capiche
 
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bshaw28 said:
This is extremely skewed. The last 10 years look drastically different from the last 15 years.

Drafted 2002 - 2007 - 22 Miami players started in the NFL for 4+ years. All these guys were part of the 2003 recruiting class or earlier
Drafted 2008 - 2015 - 11 Miami players started in the NFL for 4+ years. All these guys were part of the 2004 recruiting class or later

I've just copied & pasted what I posted exactly 1 year year ago:

FROM THE LAST 10 DRAFTS - I included all 48 players and 2 UFA's - 50 players total

Played Above Draft Position (13 Players - 26%)
3rd - Olivier Vernon, Duke Johnson, Allen Bailey, Brandon Linder, Jimmy Graham
4th - Lamar Miller, Travis Benjamin, Chris Herndon
6th - Anthony Chickillo
7th - Adrian Colbert, Seantrel Henderson
UFA - Sam Shields, Allen Hurns

Played Below Draft Position (10 Players - 20%)
1st - Ereck Flowers, Artie Burns, Phillip Dorsett
2nd - Brandon Harris
3rd - Chad Thomas, Clive Walford, DVD
4th - Mark Walton
5th - Brandon McGee, Corn Elder (I included these 2 because they were Top 150 players, taken 149th and 152 overall)


Played Close to Draft Position (27 Players - 54%)
1st - David Njoku
2nd - Orlando Franklin, Denzel Perryman
3rd - Leonard Hankerson, Sean Spence
4th - Daryl Sharpton, Colin McCarthy, Rayshawn Jenkins, Deon Bush, Jon Feliciano, Jason Fox
5th - RJ McIntosh, Danny Isidora
6th - Spencer Adkins, Richard Gordon, Mike James, Pat O'Donnell, Matt Bosher, AQM, Tommy Streeter, Brandon Washington, Brad Kaaya, Braxton Berrios
7th - Stacey Coley, Dedrick Epps, Marquez Williams, Kendrick Norton


This is all VERY SUBJECTIVE. I highlighted what I think are my most questionable calls - I've got no problem if you disagree with them. But I think I'm pretty close on the rest. I only included the obvious UFA's.

But overall - Miami guys only outplay their draft positions only a slightly higher % than they're drafted too high. Most are valued about right.
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How does that 2008-2015 group compare to the rest of the nation? And why is your cutoff 2008? The teams from 2005-2007 were mediocre to terrible.

The only stats that matter are the stats that measure us relative to the rest of the nation. And those stats all come out the same, whether it's total NFL players, total players drafted, total salaries, players drafted the past five years. You name it. We're always in the top group, and every other team in the top group is an elite program. This is just the latest example.
 
LuCane said:
Wrote in agreement above, but the part of your post that stands out is the bolded. No idea what will happen this upcoming year, but how did Coach Diaz think Enos was going to introduce the concepts to radically change how our offensive players would be used? Mind you, I had no idea if Enos would be effective or not and hoped for the best. I just never thought it'd be radically different. Here, he ran more or less what we saw in a couple of his previous spots. It will forever be a mystery how, considering his own nearly reckless philosophy, he went with that style as his first pick.
Click to expand...

The Enos hire was a head scratcher. Manny talked about bringing in an offensive coach to match the aggression on the defense and then hired the absolute opposite. I was nervous that he’d try to make us Arkansas but during off season interviews, he talked up a “spread coast” offense and I got excited. Then the first game rolled around and we were Arkansas.
 
OriginalCanesCanesCanes said:
But a huge piece of good talent was already there. I’m talking about a level of talent just under the Alabama’s of the world. Not even comparable to Miami. Look at LSU‘s class rankings for the last 10 years. They’ve always had a nice stable of talent, but had an awful offenses before 2019.

We are nowhere close to having gotten that kind of talent during the same time period. Not only that our evaluations were for shlt
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Most of the skill players who contributed at LSU were not more highly rated recruits than what Miami has. LSU has recruited above Miami overall but that includes defensive players and linemen. Their skill talent was very comparable. Still, even if the talent is a tier below, we don’t need to get LSU results to have a huge turnaround on offense. If the offense just improves to “pretty good” we’re hands down the top team in the coastal. Clearly overall talent levels would need to increase to make that next jump to title contender but let’s take one step at a time.
 
OriginalCanesCanesCanes said:
I’m not denying deployment can’t be an issue, analogous to appropriate scheming vs misuse, my base argument is that it’s actual overall talent, not development or deployment, that’s been the fundamental flaw. Since around 2004 give or take.
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Overall talent isn't really the problem when you're losing to the **** we lose to every year. There are two separate arguments constantly flowing through these D$ NFL threads: 1. We have enough talent to be performing way better than we are (D$'s point); 2. Our talent isn't NC level and not on the level of Alabaga and Clemson (the guys who argue against D$).

I don't think D$ or guys like me who think we are underperforming our talent think we have the talent to win NCs. But we certainly have had the talent to perform much better than we have over the last 17 years. D$'s NFL posts prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt regardless of whether or not our NFL talent is performing at an All-Pro clip. We shouldn't need a roster full of NFL All-Pros to win the Coastal fairly regularly and win 10 per year.
 
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Gooner#44 said:
The point I just made and even gave you values is this: LSU WITH THE SAME EXACT PLAYERS as 2018 got over 50% better just by adding Joe Brady in 2019. In 2018 their fans sounded just like us about lack of offensive talent and output. Fact.

Until you grasp that you are just babbling nonsense about a team ranking boosted by their defensive classes when the offensive record breaking #s put up were mostly by 3-4 star guys of which we have plenty...…. capiche
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Funny thing about LSU was that their defense (where they had the majority of their recruiting stars) got worse and was, by far, the lesser of the 2 units last year.
 
The Franchise said:
Overall talent isn't really the problem when you're losing to the **** we lose to every year. There are two separate arguments constantly flowing through these D$ NFL threads: 1. We have enough talent to be performing way better than we are (D$'s point); 2. Our talent isn't NC level and not on the level of Alabaga and Clemson (the guys who argue against D$).

I don't think D$ or guys like me who think we are underperforming our talent think we have the talent to win NCs. But we certainly have had the talent to perform much better than we have over the last 17 years. D$'s NFL posts prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt regardless of whether or not our NFL talent is performing at an All-Pro clip. We shouldn't need a roster full of NFL All-Pros to win the Coastal fairly regularly and win 10 per year.
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Of course we have already enough talent to win the Coastal. And of course we don’t have enough talent to win a national championship.

But we just don’t have enough talent to win much of anything, including the Coastal, with crappy coaching and bad scheming. Which we have gotten in spades since 2003.

Was a bigger picture discussion for me, that is, the whole development versus talent issue.

We have enough talent, and have had, to have won the Coastal multiple times. Don’t know of anybody that thinks otherwise.
 
DTP said:
Most of the skill players who contributed at LSU were not more highly rated recruits than what Miami has. LSU has recruited above Miami overall but that includes defensive players and linemen. Their skill talent was very comparable. Still, even if the talent is a tier below, we don’t need to get LSU results to have a huge turnaround on offense. If the offense just improves to “pretty good” we’re hands down the top team in the coastal. Clearly overall talent levels would need to increase to make that next jump to title contender but let’s take one step at a time.
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Nothing that I disagree with here
 
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DMoney said:
Just posting stats, my man. They tend to be more effective than GIFs.

Every month there is a new stat with the same result: the top NFL producing teams are the most successful programs, plus Miami. Then the usual suspects come here and try to explain it away. Rinse, repeat.



Agreed. So when the NFL keeps picking and paying our players, it should send a message about our talent.
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And we still continue to suck.

The answer is somewhere in between "our players are actually good...our coaching is terrible"...while our coaching is bad to negligent, there is something to be said for all of these NFL players in the building over the years and we continue to suck. Its not all on the coaching. I see it as the quality of players in the building continues to decline and @bshaw28 's post outlines why I find your premise at current standing to be outdated thinking.

We're clearly an outlier on every list you post. I am sure your doppelganger @BDoller over at BruinsInsight.com right now is pounding the table with the same angle with UCLA. On that list you posted...half have gotten to national championship level in the past 15 years, and the other half is like at Miami level - sometimes good, sometimes average, usually underperforming...so maybe the **** you post about pros in the league ultimately doesn't matter, because clearly, we don't have the right future pros. All I know is that we ******* stink and our players aren't the players on LSU, Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State. I've got eyes. And today is worse than yesterday and tomorrow will be worse than today. Its not like many recent vintage players outplay their performance at Miami either once they get to the pros. I don't know what you see, but I see a bunch of pro backups and rotational players of recent vintage. It is what it is.

Like...just a random example -- Brandon Linder...a player I think is pretty good and a player you clearly would tout as a player that out performs draft slot or whatever...you'd tout him as an example of success. Maxed out as a second team All-Conference player. You'll say he got paid...I say he never made a Pro Bowl and he's played a full season once. Like...he's good...but relax. Getting a pretty good starter in the 3rd round is not something to pound the table over.
 
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LuCane said:
Yes, I was one of them in 2015. It's all memorialized on the board.

I don't know how you determine "huge jump," but I anticipate we have enough talent on offense to make a huge jump from this past year. We don't have to be LSU 2019 to make a "huge" jump.
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Huge jump is relative. I’d be willing to put a big stack most people will call it a huge jump at the end of the year, assuming we play. But I mean even middle of the road will be a huge jump don’t you think?

I don’t think we have top talent on offense all around, except maybe at quarterback and tight end (RB remains to be seen), but enough to make a huge jump from last year - I absolutely believe so.
 
We’re just not as far off as a lot of people think we are. We have been a functional offense away from being the 2nd best ACC team for a while now. I know 2nd best ACC team doesn’t mean much but you have to start somewhere. You string together 3 or 4 double digit win seasons with some occasional prime time victories along the way and you can start competing with the Bamas, Clemsons and Ohio States of the world for recruits. It starts with fielding a solid offense that can match our solid to very good defense.
 
No OC could've done $h!t with that turnstile we had at LT, and our sieve of an offensive line...even Boy Wonder, Baby Jeezus, Brady.

Every...Position...Is...Important.
 
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