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Takeaway from the coach’s roundtable on ESPNU

DMoney said:
Yes, if we want to win a national championship.

In the interim, we should avoid getting shut out by Louisiana Tech with talent like this:

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WHY DO WE SUCK SO ******* BAD?!!?!

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BoxingRobes said:
We're not talking about dime a dozen wide receivers.

If you look at teams like LSU, Alabama, and Clemson...you're looking at 3 WRs at LSU that are Top 40 picks. You are looking at Alabama with 3 WRs that are Top 40 picks...and at Clemson you've got some genetically mutated humans that are potentially Top 40 picks. We're not talking about Stacy Coley and Rashawn Scott here, man.

In today's game, offense rules. Good OL and QB are obviously important, but having super humans being able to burn pedestrian corners weekly is such an asset its insane. Having world beaters (Ja'Marr Chase, for example) make first round defensive backs (check the logs...Terrell, Henderson, Diggs all looked silly v him) look like chump change is a game changer. It takes your offense from good and maybe very good to elite.
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Granted rules lean heavy towards Os now, but are the DBs less physically gifted in their craft than WRs?
 
Clemson beat Bama the year before because that freshmen WR Clemson stole out of Bama(how much did that cost) caught everything Clemson QB thew accross the LOS. Big time players make big time plays in big time games -- those are the WRs we use to have and need to have again. Tall, short, fast, quick, twitch, or powerful, none of it matters if they will not make the frigging play when the moment comes. I'm not downplaying skills and talent but all those games against nole had nfl talent all over both teams but we won almost every one of them. Our guy made the play when the moment came and theirs did not. Prime TIme did NOT run Playmaker down to prevent TD or jump over him for a pick to seal the game despite "fast as I need to be" speed. Couple years ago with a baseball player at QB we had guys making big plays when the moment came and we almost, almost turned the world upside down again. Oh, we need big time coach to make big time calls in big time games TOO.
 
BoxingRobes said:
We're not talking about dime a dozen wide receivers.

If you look at teams like LSU, Alabama, and Clemson...you're looking at 3 WRs at LSU that are Top 40 picks. You are looking at Alabama with 3 WRs that are Top 40 picks...and at Clemson you've got some genetically mutated humans that are potentially Top 40 picks. We're not talking about Stacy Coley and Rashawn Scott here, man.

In today's game, offense rules. Good OL and QB are obviously important, but having super humans being able to burn pedestrian corners weekly is such an asset its insane. Having world beaters (Ja'Marr Chase, for example) make first round defensive backs (check the logs...Terrell, Henderson, Diggs all looked silly v him) look like chump change is a game changer. It takes your offense from good and maybe very good to elite.
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Couldn't agree with this more. Look at the WR's on the last 8 NC teams

2019 LSU - Jefferson, Chase
2018 Clemson - Higgins, Ross
2017 Alabama - Ridley, Jeudy, Ruggs
2016 Clemson - Mike Williams
2015 Alabama - Ridley
2014 Ohio St - Michael Thomas
2013 FSU - Benjamin
2012 Alabama - Cooper

All had a WR drafted in the Top 50 picks. It's almost a necessity at this point. On top of that, all also had either a big time QB or RB on the team too.
 
bshaw28 said:
Couldn't agree with this more. Look at the WR's on the last 8 NC teams

2019 LSU - Jefferson, Chase
2018 Clemson - Higgins, Ross
2017 Alabama - Ridley, Jeudy, Ruggs
2016 Clemson - Mike Williams
2015 Alabama - Ridley
2014 Ohio St - Michael Thomas
2013 FSU - Benjamin
2012 Alabama - Cooper

All had a WR drafted in the Top 50 picks. It's almost a necessity at this point. On top of that, all also had either a big time QB or RB on the team too.
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I've made some posts before...but the depth at WR on those teams are crazy. LSU also had Mitchell. Clemson also has Ngata and has had Hunter Renfrow. Alabama had Smith on that 17 team as well. 15 Alabama also had Ardarius Stewart (3rd Round pick). 14 Ohio State had Devin Smith (2nd Round pick) and Noah Brown (drafted). 13 FSU had Rashad Greene, an NFL draft pick. 12 Alabama had Kevin Norwood.

So, not just studs...in some cases, multiple studs...but depth too. Multiple NFL caliber WRs.

We're going into next year trotting out Mike Harley and Wiggins. Fine enough players...but we're not talking the same thing here. In an area like Miami-Dade County to have what we have now and of recent vintage at WR is pretty shameful. Its ONE (of many) reasons why we can not compete. Bad QBs...average WRs...bad to below average OL play. Like...is there any questions as to why we are such ****. Coaching is big, but, its not like we're rolling out guys like that.
 
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the ahmonn Richards injury is up there with the fbi investigation in basketball in how it set this program back when it was on the rise, he was going to establish that #1 spot back at the U, unfortunately its been backwards since, hoping Payton can be that dude, we need a legit catch and run gamebreaker type
 
Gatorhater said:
Clemson beat Bama the year before because that freshmen WR Clemson stole out of Bama(how much did that cost) caught everything Clemson QB thew accross the LOS. Big time players make big time plays in big time games -- those are the WRs we use to have and need to have again. Tall, short, fast, quick, twitch, or powerful, none of it matters if they will not make the frigging play when the moment comes. I'm not downplaying skills and talent but all those games against nole had nfl talent all over both teams but we won almost every one of them. Our guy made the play when the moment came and theirs did not. Prime TIme did NOT run Playmaker down to prevent TD or jump over him for a pick to seal the game despite "fast as I need to be" speed. Couple years ago with a baseball player at QB we had guys making big plays when the moment came and we almost, almost turned the world upside down again. Oh, we need big time coach to make big time calls in big time games TOO.
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Losers complain about the cost of winning.

Miami fans have bemoaned buying players since we seemingly stopped buying players.

Either you compete to win like eeryone else, or don’t be surprised that you don’t win.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
Losers complain about the cost of winning.

Miami fans have bemoaned buying players since we seemingly stopped buying players.

Either you compete to win like eeryone else, or don’t be surprised that you don’t win.
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So you think we need to add ....big time players cost big time $$$$. I can't disagree with that.
 
Empirical Cane said:
Granted rules lean heavy towards Os now, but are the DBs less physically gifted in their craft than WRs?
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I would say no. I have no data to support it...but I think the better college DBs are more physical in play. Look at players this year like Jeff Okudah and Kristian Fulton. Very successful CBs...not flawless...but they are very physical when the ball is in the air...very handsy and fight through to the whistle, PI be damned. If you don't get a little rough with 6'4" Tee Higgins, what are you going to do? You're not going to out finesse him. So, IMO, its more about CBs that are willing to get physical moreover their physical - athletic - ability. This holds true in the run game (or screen game), having physical corners puts you in the + territory in head to head matchups. CBs that step up and make tackles has been paramount to success, especially in this era. There are metrics that back that up.

But, if you have 3 NFL quality WRs...there are no teams in the nation that have 3 NFL quality CBs right now...and no CB that can go all game long against these types of players...and even if they did, your CB2 ain't hanging with those WR2 all game, nevermind your nickel.
 
Ethnicsands said:
It is what it is. If you bring a knife to a gun fight, don't be surprised when you get shot.
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Especially when everyone else has a Thompson. I was always in favor of going to the SEC instead of the Big East so we could play football and baseball -- you know, the things we were great at. I'm sure gator would never let that happen but at that time, our TV ratings gave us a shot.
 
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DMoney said:
Yes, if we want to win a national championship.

In the interim, we should avoid getting shut out by Louisiana Tech with talent like this:

Click to expand...

Since it's the off-season and we're all locked inside, I figured I'd point out some misunderstandings around our allegedly great talent you often mention in threads. How about rather than focus on NFL drafts, we focus on NFL All Pro teams? It tells a pretty different picture than your draft mentions threads do. It suggests we have not had elite talent in a long time. Here are the facts:

The only first team all pros we have had since the 2010 season are Calais Campbell ('17), Jimmy Graham ('13), Vince Wilfork ('12), Reggie Wayne ('10), Ed Reed ('10) and Devin Hester ('10). Each of them was a first team all pro exactly once over that period, moreover. Campbell was recruiting class '04. Graham was a basketball player who played one season at Miami. Wilfork, Wayne, Reed, Hester were classes prior to Campbell.

If we expand the consideration to 2d team all pros, we get Campbell again ('16, '14), Olsen ('16, '15), Vernon ('16), Rolle ('13, '10), A. Johnson ('12), Graham ('11), Wilfork ('11, '10), Reed ('11), Hester ('11) and R. Lewis ('10). The only semi-modern player on that list is Vernon, who was recruited by Shannon and who mailed it in at UM. Olsen was a Coker recruit.

If we expand the consideration to include PFF all pro mentions not just Associated Press, we get Campbell again ('19, '11), Vernon ('15), Olsen ('14), A. Johnson ('13, '10), R. Wayne ('12), Chris Myers ('11), R. Lewis ('11). Myers was recruited by Butch.

So as far as I can tell from a bit of research, we have had precisely zero all pro players from Golden and Richt's recruiting years, and just one from Shannon's recruiting tenure (Vernon), and that guy didn't bother try hard at UM. Graham wasn't recruited at all for football, and learned the spot in a single year at UM, so not focusing on him.

I appreciate all the lists showing Miami players drafted. I think it's relevant to consider that we have not produced high level NFL players at all over the last decade. Oh, and if you go back to '08, all that happens is you add Beason 2x, rest is the same cast of guys.
 
bshaw28 said:
I never thought Dorsett was a 1st Round pick either. But even if he were taken in the 4th round, he would've well outplayed his recruiting ranking

Dorsett - Ranked #383 but drafted #28 overall
Hankerson - Ranked #367 but drafted #79 overall
Hurns - Ranked #515 & UDFA - but had best single season for a Miami WR ever, and is the only 1k yd NFL WR since Andre Johnson
Scott - Ranked #1,101 but played in the NFL 2 years

That's 4 overachieving WR's IMO. Why aren't they considered to be "developed"?

I'm getting off topic, but at other positions - Redwine, Njoku, Mike Jackson, Walford, Isadora, McIntosh, Isadora, Feliciano, Rousseau - all were drafted hundreds of spots above their recruiting rankings.

It seems weird to me that in the "development" discussion - we have all these overachieving players the last 10 years - but it doesn't seem like there's a single Miami player that people think was "developed" by the coaches. But if you look at other schools, these are the type of players people would point to as showing "good development".
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People often mistake "development" for "evaluation." For instance, Rousseau is more evaluation than he is "development." So are most of those other guys for that matter. That's one reason I like Likens as WR coach. I like his approach to recruiting and what's important to him, and I like his history of evaluation.
 
The Franchise said:
People often mistake "development" for "evaluation." For instance, Rousseau is more evaluation than he is "development." So are most of those other guys for that matter. That's one reason I like Likens as WR coach. I like his approach to recruiting and what's important to him, and I like his history of evaluation.
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Thank God I'm not the only one who has to say this.

It's a massive flaw in our fanbase's analysis.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
Thank God I'm not the only one who has to say this.

It's a massive flaw in our fanbase's analysis.
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It's not just our fanbase. It's all of college football. They've bestowed God like mystical qualities on coaches and their "development" skills, when, in reality, there is success at 2 major levels: 1. The guys who load up their roster with 5 stars like Sabag; and 2. Guys who evaluate their asses off. There are some who mix the 2 very well like ***** Swinney.
 
Ethnicsands said:
Since it's the off-season and we're all locked inside, I figured I'd point out some misunderstandings around our allegedly great talent you often mention in threads. How about rather than focus on NFL drafts, we focus on NFL All Pro teams? It tells a pretty different picture than your draft mentions threads do. It suggests we have not had elite talent in a long time. Here are the facts:

The only first team all pros we have had since the 2010 season are Calais Campbell ('17), Jimmy Graham ('13), Vince Wilfork ('12), Reggie Wayne ('10), Ed Reed ('10) and Devin Hester ('10). Each of them was a first team all pro exactly once over that period, moreover. Campbell was recruiting class '04. Graham was a basketball player who played one season at Miami. Wilfork, Wayne, Reed, Hester were classes prior to Campbell.

If we expand the consideration to 2d team all pros, we get Campbell again ('16, '14), Olsen ('16, '15), Vernon ('16), Rolle ('13, '10), A. Johnson ('12), Graham ('11), Wilfork ('11, '10), Reed ('11), Hester ('11) and R. Lewis ('10). The only semi-modern player on that list is Vernon, who was recruited by Shannon and who mailed it in at UM. Olsen was a Coker recruit.

If we expand the consideration to include PFF all pro mentions not just Associated Press, we get Campbell again ('19, '11), Vernon ('15), Olsen ('14), A. Johnson ('13, '10), R. Wayne ('12), Chris Myers ('11), R. Lewis ('11). Myers was recruited by Butch.

So as far as I can tell from a big of research, we have had precisely zero all pro players from Golden and Richt's recruiting years, and just one from Shannon's recruiting tenure (Vernon), and that guy didn't bother try hard at UM. Graham wasn't recruited at all for football, and learned the spot in a single year at UM, so not focusing on him.

I appreciate all the lists showing Miami players drafted. I think it's relevant to consider that we have not produced high level NFL players at all over the last decade.
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I don’t focus on All-Pro teams because All-Pros are rare. That’s why they are All-Pros. Toledo and Cincinnati randomly had two this year. Only three teams had more. It’s a small sample and a poor measure of overall talent.

NFL players drafted over the past five years is a much larger sample and more accurate measure of overall talent. Here are the top teams by that measure:

Alabama: 11-2
Ohio State: 13-1
Florida: 11-2
Clemson: 14-1
Miami: 6-7
LSU: 15-0
Oklahoma: 12-2

These teams should look familiar, because they are the top programs in the country. And Miami.
 
I’d say good evaluation is seeing a guy like Greg Rousseau and knowing he could play even though the scouting services didn’t think much of him. Development would be a guy like Allen Hurns who came in as a nobody but worked his way into a very capable player. Hurns wasn’t underrated coming out of high school but he improved significantly through his time at Miami.
 
DTP said:
I’d say good evaluation is seeing a guy like Greg Rousseau and knowing he could play even though the scouting services didn’t think much of him. Development would be a guy like Allen Hurns who came in as a nobody but worked his way into a very capable player. Hurns wasn’t underrated coming out of high school but he improved significantly through his time at Miami.
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Then we can get into the discussion of how much of that "development" was just natural physical maturity and hard work by the player versus any magic pixie development dust by his coaches.
 
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