Size

[Ethnicsands]

Jaquan would have started on the 2001 team. Like you said, he wasn’t the problem.

Thank you. And surrounded by those guys, he'd not just have started. He'd have made plays everywhere.

If we could only have more guys like Jaquan, we'd be so much better off.

I've been yelling about evals for 20 years. Jaquan was a good eval. Find me guys like that. Of course we all want bigger faster guys with his talent. But we haven't had a single first team all american position player in over a decade. Find great players. When we know what they look like, we'll have a higher hit rate on our guys with higher athletic upside.

 

[bshaw28]

Jaquan would have started on the 2001 team. Like you said, he wasn’t the problem.

Jesus this misses the point.

Could 6th Round Jaquan Johnson have started over 6th Round James Lewis in 2001? DEBATEABLY - yes.

Remember - Sean Taylor & Antrell Rolle were backups in 01. So if you're rewriting history - are you starting Jaquan over Sean Taylor?

But you, me, or anyone else on this board could have been a starter too and not missed a beat when the 3 other DB's were 1st Round picks.

If Jaquan/Lewis is the 4th best player in your seconday - you have a great secondary. If they're the best in your secondary - guess what?

 

[bshaw28]

LMAO. In real life, college teams do not get to trade players like that. So yes, you are playing fantasy here.

You're talking about the NFL. I don't give an eff about that. I'm interested in MIAMI winning in college. JJ's deficiencies for the NFL didn't hold him back from being a great college player. Gino Toretta won the Hesiman. He wasn't right for the NFL either. You want to punt on him, too?

You're not being realistic at all. You're deluded. No one said JJ should be our 'best' player. It's an absurd comment. You're caught up in a semantic debate with yourself. The reality is, JJ WAS OUR BEST PLAYER that year. And we need MORE guys like him. If our staff keeps trying to recruit future NFL players, we'll get nowhere. Recruit great football players and show you can win with them and in due course, you'll get more guys who are both great players and better athletes than JJ. But we will never be harmed by having guys as good as JJ, and if we had a team full of them, we'd be 12-0 almost every season, have a great shot against Clemson in the ACCCG and who knows int he playoffs. But it's not an 'either-or' choice - that's where you're lost in a debate with yourself. The way we average up in overall talent is get more better guys and win with them. Do that and we'll keep getting more guys who can go rounds 1-2.

And keep in mind, JJ was in my view a better college player than Artie Burns was. Artie going higher in the NFL draft doesn't change that. It shows that the NFL saw his potential for their game. I want to see guys show their full potential at UM. Give me Jaquan over Artie (no offense to Artie) at UM.

As for your last question, it's a silly question because there is no answer to it. We need to keep averaging up and getting better. There's no number of high picks vs. lower picks. Some guys play great at UM but get picked low because of their NFL ceiling. Others are okay at UM but get picked higher because of their NFL ceiling. Your question is not helpful. Jaquan was better than 95% of our roster most of the last decade. Worry about how to get more guys like that rather than look down your nose at him.

1) There are Great college players that never play in the NFL
2) There are Great college players that are also Great NFL players

Teams loaded with #2 type players demolish teams loaded with #1 type players. This is not rocket science

If the defense of your position is using Heisman winning Gino Toretta who played 30 years ago as your example - then your take is outdated.

Joe Burrow, Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson are the recent Heisman winning QB's. If you need me to explain the difference between them and Gino Toretta.....well then I understand how you're missing my point

 

[bshaw28]

You're lost in the type of NFL Hype that we've seen in past threads here. It's pointless. 2001 Miami had 19 first round picks, by the way.

In any case, the idea that Jaquan would ever be the 8th best guy on defense because other guys got drafted higher is crazy and dead wrong to me.

Oh, and JJ did make HM all america, and iirc someone had him as a second-team AA. Yes, he was also second-team all ACC. Lou Hedley was second team all acc in '20 btw.

To respond to these 3 points:

We won the 2001 NC because we had 19 1st Round draft picks. Do you see the correlation here? We didn't win in 2000 & 2002 with an equal amount of talent. That's how hard it is, and how much talent you need to win an NC.

Put Jaquan on the 2001 team. Do you think he's better than Wilfork, Jon Vilma, DJ Williams, Antrell Rolle, Sean Taylor, Ed Reed, Phillip Buchanon, Mike Rumph, William Joseph, and Jerome McDougle. Really? That's 10 dudes, and Jaquan being the 8th best player on that defense would blow your mind?

Is 2nd team All American the same as Honorable Mention? It's ok to say you were wrong. Also - can you post the link to where he was HM? I'm not saying h wasn't - I'd just like to see it.

 

[Rellyrell]

We can argue stars all day. The reality is...The combination of JW, AW, KK and BB is better than the combo of DB, RJ, SR and JaqJohn as natural safeties coming out of HS. I dont think that is debatable. AW and JW were the #1 safeties in the country coming out of HS. The safety room talent wise is better than its ever been. Now we just have to develop them. Like Coach Macho says, you get better results when you recruit better players.

But u can’t say that. Lol. U r literally basing that upon stars, my ninja. Have u seen J Will play a down here? What about Avantae? Kinchens? We’ve seen Bolden & he’s flashed both future 1st round talent & future UDFA talent.

Again, JJ, Bush, SR, and Jenkins are all in the NFL, all were drafted, and all were very good here. Hall was higher than all those guys, a helicopter was landed on the field to recruit this guy, and what have we seen?

U can’t say we can argue stars all day, but then say our room is better based upon pure speculation due to star ratings. That’s the prohibitive definition of an oxymoron.

In no way, shape or form am I dismissing ur feelings, nor do I think the room, BASED UPON STARS, is not better....but none of us, until we see a down played, can unequivocally say the room is better compared to.....

Case in point: Chad was a 5 star, Rousseau was a 3 star....which would u build ur DL w/? Stars r strictly projection, which is normally correct, but we’ve had 3 star guys out perform high 4 star - 5 star guys here numerous time. Let the new product prove themselves before diminishing some really good guys that donned the O&G.

 

[Ethnicsands]

1) There are Great college players that never play in the NFL
2) There are Great college players that are also Great NFL players

Teams loaded with #2 type players demolish teams loaded with #1 type players. This is not rocket science

If the defense of your position is using Heisman winning Gino Toretta who played 30 years ago as your example - then your take is outdated.

Joe Burrow, Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson are the recent Heisman winning QB's. If you need me to explain the difference between them and Gino Toretta.....well then I understand how you're missing my point

We’re done, you sound like a 12 year old. You think the game is so different that we won’t see heisman qbs who arent great nfl prospects any more? Gino Toretta would by the best QB we have had since ... Get this - GINO TORETTA. If your understanding of football is such that we should look down our nose at a Heisman QB because he’s not what the nfl needs, then *smh*

You’ve retreated to arguing idiocy. You started by besmirching Jaquan And players like him. Now you’re trying to claim great players with nfl upside beat great players without it, like it’s even a relevant discussion. Sorry, it’s pointless and stupid. We should grab every Jaquan we can find. If we can get even better players, great also. But our problem the past 20 years ain’t Jaquan and of you think it was, you’re lost. It has been the lack of more Jaquans.

Moreover, all our title teams had plenty of important players on them who weren’t top nfl picks. Even ‘01, which was jammed full of top picks, had lewis at safety, walters at dl, jones at wr, and kenny dorsey, who was a lower pick than jaquan.

This whole debate is stupid as it gets. You want more Sean Taylors. Great. So do we all. Now what?

 

[Ethnicsands]

To respond to these 3 points:

We won the 2001 NC because we had 19 1st Round draft picks. Do you see the correlation here? We didn't win in 2000 & 2002 with an equal amount of talent. That's how hard it is, and how much talent you need to win an NC.

Put Jaquan on the 2001 team. Do you think he's better than Wilfork, Jon Vilma, DJ Williams, Antrell Rolle, Sean Taylor, Ed Reed, Phillip Buchanon, Mike Rumph, William Joseph, and Jerome McDougle. Really? That's 10 dudes, and Jaquan being the 8th best player on that defense would blow your mind?

Is 2nd team All American the same as Honorable Mention? It's ok to say you were wrong. Also - can you post the link to where he was HM? I'm not saying h wasn't - I'd just like to see it.

Wilfork didn’t start on tjat team. Taylor was a true frosh special teams player. Rolle a backup too. Jaquan as an upperclassman would have been a starter in that secondary.

 

[TheMatador]

We need a team that's THICC in the right places.

Yeah, I’ve heard them say girth is important.

 

[Bender]

Clark is getting smashed for losing his belly? What?

Mass is good, but good mass beats bad mass in 100/100 cases. Clark lost bad weight and looks to gain it till September. That was the goal all along.

Theres no point in being fat if you cant move the weight because you dont have the power. Clark had an emergency ring and had too much fat for his size. Nelson plays at 310-315 and Clark played at 320. Compare the two and tell me what build you rather want to have.

Fwiw, I hope Donaldson shed a few pounds too. 350 is too much. If he didnt do it now, he will have to do it at the next level anyway.

 

[bshaw28]

We’re done, you sound like a 12 year old. You think the game is so different that we won’t see heisman qbs who arent great nfl prospects any more? Gino Toretta would by the best QB we have had since ... Get this - GINO TORETTA. If your understanding of football is such that we should look down our nose at a Heisman QB because he’s not what the nfl needs, then *smh*

This is no disrespect to Gino or Dorsey who were GREAT Miami QB's. But take how you feel about them emotionally out of it and look objectively:

1990 - 2006 - 2 out of 10 Heisman winning QB's were drafted in the 1st Round​

2007 - 2020 - 11 out of 11 Heisman winning QB's were drafted in the 1st Round​

The last 2 QB's Miami faced in a National Championship game:

2001 Nebraska - Eric Crouch threw 7 TD's & 10 INT's. And he won the Heisman.​

2002 Ohio St - Craig Krenzel threw 12 TD's & 7 INT's. And he won a NC.​

So you ask me if I think the game is "so different"? Yes I do. I think it's VERY different. And the change happened a while ago.

Miami should've seen the way the game was going over 10 years ago - back when Tebow/Newton/RG3 were mobile QB's running spread offenses and winning Heisman's & NC's. But we didn't, and the game passed us by. We're still trying to catch up.

 

[bshaw28]

Wilfork didn’t start on tjat team. Taylor was a true frosh special teams player. Rolle a backup too. Jaquan as an upperclassman would have been a starter in that secondary.

I'll try to make it clear one last time.....

My whole point is that to win a National Championship you need the type of talent on your roster where Wilfork/Taylor/Rolle wouldn't even start as Freshman.

Again - this isn't a slight at Jaquan/Redwine/Bush/Jenkins, etc. All are very good players - I'm not saying they're the problem. I'm saying the DB unit as a whole needs more talent than that to win a NC.

I feel like we just watched The Heat win a title and you turned to me and said "See! I told you we could win it all with Mario Chalmers at PG!"

And I'm responding "You're absolutely right - I never said Chalmers was the problem. Chalmers is a great player. I'm just saying we couldn't win it all if our starting 5 were all Chalmers type players. We needed LeBron, Wade, and Bosh to win it all".

And then you call me an idiot.

 

[Ethnicsands]

This is no disrespect to Gino or Dorsey who were GREAT Miami QB's. But take how you feel about them emotionally out of it and look objectively:

1990 - 2006 - 2 out of 10 Heisman winning QB's were drafted in the 1st Round​

2007 - 2020 - 11 out of 11 Heisman winning QB's were drafted in the 1st Round​

The last 2 QB's Miami faced in a National Championship game:

2001 Nebraska - Eric Crouch threw 7 TD's & 10 INT's. And he won the Heisman.​

2002 Ohio St - Craig Krenzel threw 12 TD's & 7 INT's. And he won a NC.​

So you ask me if I think the game is "so different"? Yes I do. I think it's VERY different. And the change happened a while ago.

Miami should've seen the way the game was going over 10 years ago - back when Tebow/Newton/RG3 were mobile QB's running spread offenses and winning Heisman's & NC's. But we didn't, and the game passed us by. We're still trying to catch up.

If your point is we should recruit better QBs than we've had the past 20 decades, who do you think disagrees? Of course we should. But that's an evaluation issue. If your point is we should recruit different types of QBs ... we've tried, and gotten the evals wrong across the board. We've recruited QBs who we thought were more athletic and dual threat than Dorset or Gino. Our QB issues have been two-fold: bad evals and bad schemes. Hopefully we're getting better at evals. Our offensive scheme is improved.

If your point is you can't win without a top NFL played at QB, I don't agree. Alabama has won titles with some functional QBs. Ohio State also. Also - the NFL's record of picking QBs in round 1 is pretty spotty. And the NFL has its own needs, which don't match college outcomes all that tightly. This fan-base over-focuses on the NFL. I'd take a Gino Toretta all day long, because he can throw beautifully for the modern spread game. He's not an NFL prototype, but who cares? If your point is Gino Toretta wouldn't be good on a college team in this era, I disagree.

The game has changed as a result of rule changes, so there are different guys prioritized today. What you see in the past 2 decades in CFB is a handful of QBs who really drove their college teams exceptionally - Burrow, Winston, Newton, Tebow. Tebow wasn't a good fit for the NFL and it showed. The other guys have had good careers. Burrow suffered a bad injury and we'll see.

As far as the Heisman, the really annoying thing on looking is that the last 3 NON-QBs to win it were Alabama guys. Devonta, Henry and Ingraham. The award biases to high stat quarterbacks in passing offenses on pretty good teams (and non-QB skill position guys from Alabama). Murray, Mayfield, Mariota, Manziel, Griffin, Bradford. Bradford hasn't been some great NFL player. Manziel hasn't stuck at all.

If your point is the Heisman Trophy teaches us something, it's mainly that Clemson QBs don't win it, while Oklahoma QBs do.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I'll try to make it clear one last time.....

My whole point is that to win a National Championship you need the type of talent on your roster where Wilfork/Taylor/Rolle wouldn't even start as Freshman.

Again - this isn't a slight at Jaquan/Redwine/Bush/Jenkins, etc. All are very good players - I'm not saying they're the problem. I'm saying the DB unit as a whole needs more talent than that to win a NC.

I feel like we just watched The Heat win a title and you turned to me and said "See! I told you we could win it all with Mario Chalmers at PG!"

And I'm responding "You're absolutely right - I never said Chalmers was the problem. Chalmers is a great player. I'm just saying we couldn't win it all if our starting 5 were all Chalmers type players. We needed LeBron, Wade, and Bosh to win it all".

And then you call me an idiot.

Your point is silly because you began it by crapping on the type of guys who we need more of to compete at a high level.

Obviously we need more talent overall and the type of experienced talent that can keep young guys in sub roles as true frosh. That's not a remotely interesting point.

We need more talent everywhere. Judging by the past decade, our BIGGEST deficiencies have been OL, WR, QB and LB, not DB, DL, RB or TE.

We should hope like heck we can get guys like Redwine, Jackson and Jaquan in large numbers. If we do that, we'll also wind up with some better athletes who will work out, because our evals will be centered properly. And Ed Reed was an eval, not some unbelievable specimen. Nothing to do with stars, just prototypes.

If you expect Sean Taylor to walk back through the door, you may be disappointed. But we don't need that to compete for a title. There's been only one of him.

 

[bshaw28]

Your point is silly because you began it by crapping on the type of guys who we need more of to compete at a high level.

Obviously we need more talent overall and the type of experienced talent that can keep young guys in sub roles as true frosh. That's not a remotely interesting point.

We need more talent everywhere. Judging by the past decade, our BIGGEST deficiencies have been OL, WR, QB and LB, not DB, DL, RB or TE.

We should hope like heck we can get guys like Redwine, Jackson and Jaquan in large numbers. If we do that, we'll also wind up with some better athletes who will work out, because our evals will be centered properly. And Ed Reed was an eval, not some unbelievable specimen. Nothing to do with stars, just prototypes.

If you expect Sean Taylor to walk back through the door, you may be disappointed. But we don't need that to compete for a title. There's been only one of him.

I'm not at all crapping on our players. What I said was:

"Miami gets players where something is sacrificed. Talent, sub-par size & athleticism (Jaquan Johnson). Size & Athleticism, sub-par talent (Sheldrick Redwine). We need more guys that are the combo of all 3."​

You're getting bent out of shape at a realistic assessment. You keep saying "we need to get better players" then immediately change it to "we just need more of the same type players". Well which one is it?

We've had 7 1st & 2nd Round draft picks we've had in the last 12 drafts:

QB - 0
RB - 0
WR - 1
TE - 1
OL - 2
DL - 0
LB - 1
DB - 2

That's 7 in 12 years. Last year Alabama had 8. LSU had 7. That's what we're competing against.

ALL positions need more talent. Honestly - we're not even that close to competing with the big boys.

We don't need Sean Taylors - but we do need more Brandon Merriweather, Kenny Phillips, Antrel Rolle types - and a lot more of them.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I'm not at all crapping on our players. What I said was:

"Miami gets players where something is sacrificed. Talent, sub-par size & athleticism (Jaquan Johnson). Size & Athleticism, sub-par talent (Sheldrick Redwine). We need more guys that are the combo of all 3."​

You're getting bent out of shape at a realistic assessment. You keep saying "we need to get better players" then immediately change it to "we just need more of the same type players". Well which one is it?

We've had 7 1st & 2nd Round draft picks we've had in the last 12 drafts:

QB - 0
RB - 0
WR - 1
TE - 1
OL - 2
DL - 0
LB - 1
DB - 2

That's 7 in 12 years. Last year Alabama had 8. LSU had 7. That's what we're competing against.

ALL positions need more talent. Honestly - we're not even that close to competing with the big boys.

We don't need Sean Taylors - but we do need more Brandon Merriweather, Kenny Phillips, Antrel Rolle types - and a lot more of them.

I’ve been pointing out for 2 decades our talent was an issue. We havent had a position player All American in over a decade. We had more elite talent in the ‘70s. And our first rounders the past decade haven’t performed all that well, either. The last significant NFL player we peoduced was Calais Campbell. (Not counting Jimmy Graham because we didn’t recruit him.)

But we do need more Jaquans. He’s one of the best evals we’ve had in ages.

 

[bshaw28]

If your point is we should recruit better QBs than we've had the past 20 decades, who do you think disagrees? Of course we should. But that's an evaluation issue. If your point is we should recruit different types of QBs ... we've tried, and gotten the evals wrong across the board. We've recruited QBs who we thought were more athletic and dual threat than Dorset or Gino. Our QB issues have been two-fold: bad evals and bad schemes. Hopefully we're getting better at evals. Our offensive scheme is improved.

If your point is you can't win without a top NFL played at QB, I don't agree. Alabama has won titles with some functional QBs. Ohio State also. Also - the NFL's record of picking QBs in round 1 is pretty spotty. And the NFL has its own needs, which don't match college outcomes all that tightly. This fan-base over-focuses on the NFL. I'd take a Gino Toretta all day long, because he can throw beautifully for the modern spread game. He's not an NFL prototype, but who cares? If your point is Gino Toretta wouldn't be good on a college team in this era, I disagree.

The game has changed as a result of rule changes, so there are different guys prioritized today. What you see in the past 2 decades in CFB is a handful of QBs who really drove their college teams exceptionally - Burrow, Winston, Newton, Tebow. Tebow wasn't a good fit for the NFL and it showed. The other guys have had good careers. Burrow suffered a bad injury and we'll see.

As far as the Heisman, the really annoying thing on looking is that the last 3 NON-QBs to win it were Alabama guys. Devonta, Henry and Ingraham. The award biases to high stat quarterbacks in passing offenses on pretty good teams (and non-QB skill position guys from Alabama). Murray, Mayfield, Mariota, Manziel, Griffin, Bradford. Bradford hasn't been some great NFL player. Manziel hasn't stuck at all.

If your point is the Heisman Trophy teaches us something, it's mainly that Clemson QBs don't win it, while Oklahoma QBs do.

You said "You think the game is so different that we won’t see heisman qbs who aren't great nfl prospects any more?" Then I point out the last 11 Heisman QB have been 1st Round Draft picks.

You dismiss that by pointing out Alabama has recently won NC's with non 1st Round QB's - but then also point also out the last 3 non-QB Heisman winners have been Alabama players. Which proves the point you can win with a lesser QB "IF" you have Heisman/1st round talent at BOTH RB & WR "AND" also have an Elite Defense. That's how Gino and Dorsey won NC's. Which has been my point this whole time.

But also - The last 3 Alabama QB's over the last 5 years have been 1st & 2nd Round draft picks. So they've been stacked at QB along with every other position. And that's been absolutely necessary for them when they're having to outduel Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, Kyler Murray, DeShaun Watson, etc.

You say this fanbases over-focuses on NFL talent - but you were quick to point out all the NFL talent on the 2001 NC team. The most talented players also get drafted the highest - the two aren't mutually exclusive. The teams that produce the most Day 1 & 2 NFL talent are also the best teams in College Football. That's why fans focus on NFL talent.

So if we're talking 2020 Trevor Lawrence, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson and you want to make the argument for 1990 Gino Toretta - Go for it!

If we're talking the 2001 Portis, Gore, McGahee backfield and you want to make a case for 1973 Heisman RB John Cappelletti - Have at it!

You wanna talk how Miami started a Fullback and Nebraska ran the option in the 2001 NC and the games hasn't changed much - Do your thing!

 

[bshaw28]

I’ve been pointing out for 2 decades our talent was an issue. We havent had a position player All American in over a decade. We had more elite talent in the ‘70s. And our first rounders the past decade haven’t performed all that well, either. The last significant NFL player we peoduced was Calais Campbell. (Not counting Jimmy Graham because we didn’t recruit him.)

But we do need more Jaquans. He’s one of the best evals we’ve had in ages.

I totally agree with you. We do need more Jaquans.

Where we begin to differ is:

I see Jaquan as an excellent role player, not a star player that can carry a team.​

If we have a team packed with excellent role players, we're can be a good, but not great team.​

When we have half our starting 22 are Jaquans, with a couple star players mixed in - we're definitely better, but not there yet.​

When we get to the point where at least half our starting 22 are Star players, with a couple Jaquans mixed in - then we're in business.​

 

[Ethnicsands]

I totally agree with you. We do need more Jaquans.

Where we begin to differ is:

I see Jaquan as an excellent role player, not a star player that can carry a team.​

If we have a team packed with excellent role players, we're can be a good, but not great team.​

When we have half our starting 22 are Jaquans, with a couple star players mixed in - we're definitely better, but not there yet.​

When we get to the point where at least half our starting 22 are Star players, with a couple Jaquans mixed in - then we're in business.​

Jaquan was not a role player. He was a stamdout. If we have better standouts, great. Lets go get them. Jaquan was not only very good, he was very smart with great football instincts. Plenty of higher ceiling athletes lack Jaquan’s football IQ. More Jaquans would help us.

 

[bshaw28]

Jaquan was not a role player. He was a stamdout. If we have better standouts, great. Lets go get them. Jaquan was not only very good, he was very smart with great football instincts. Plenty of higher ceiling athletes lack Jaquan’s football IQ. More Jaquans would help us.

On a Defense with no Day 1 & 2 Draft picks (Like 2017 & 2018 were) - I agree with you, Jaquan is a standout.

On a Defense with 6-7 Day 1 & 2 Draft picks (Alabama, LSU, Clemson, Ohio St) - Jaquan becomes an excellent role player. This is what we want.

 

[The Franchise]

Which one will fatigue first? You fellas have words galore in your fingertips.