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Babscanes

Freshman
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
127
Remember watching Leatherwood run back from the coin toss before the playoff game. I was utterly shocked at how well he moved at his size. It’s not even close to anything we have. And all of Bama ol move like that
 

gogeta4

All-ACC
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Messages
17,382
Remember watching Leatherwood run back from the coin toss before the playoff game. I was utterly shocked at how well he moved at his size. It’s not even close to anything we have. And all of Bama ol move like that

He got worked for a week by our de Quincy roche @sr bowl. He's a monster though..but he was from FloriBama
 

umfire

Redshirt Freshman
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
315
It’s really about the top tier talent we lack. Sure I’m on board with getting more size but the fact is we don’t have enough elite talent. Look at Bama last year — Jobe, Leatherwood, D Smith. That one Bama team had 3 elite college players and I know I’m missing one.

We haven’t had 3 elite college players cumulatively in the last decade
 

bshaw28

Junior
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
2,689
The thing is, those guys are really good. We can beat alabama with guys like that. We cannot heat Alabama with the OL, WRs, QBs and LBs we’ve had the past decade.

In terms of beating Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson, etc. as the goal

Maybe if we have multiple Day 1/2 guys at both LB and DL - then we can get away with an all Day 3 Secondary.

QB, OL, WR, RB - We need Day 1/2 guys at any combination of 3 of those 4 positions. Doesn't necessarily have to be OL, or QB - but we need 3.

If we consistently roll out 11 Day 3 guys on offense, and 11 Day 3 guys on defense - that's enough to become a consistent 10-12 win team.

22 Day 3 guys catches one of the big boys in a single game. But it doesn't break off a 3 game run of beating Clemson, Ohio St, Alabama.
 
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bshaw28

Junior
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
2,689
Disagree. Jaquan was a second team AA and Redwine a very good player. I’m not saying they’re ST and Antrel, but talents like those guys are in fact what will help us be competitive with Alabama.

I think people aren't appreciating the gap between Miami and Alabama.

Think of it this way:

Could you trade Jaquan Johnson, Sheldrick Redwine, and Mike Jackson (All day 3 picks) for either Minkah Fitzpatrick or Trevon Diggs? No
Could you trade Mark Walton, Travis Homer, and DeeJay Dallas (All day 3 picks) for either Derrick Henry or Najee Harris? No

If an NFL team offered 2 4th's, 2 5th's, and 1 6th Round pick for a 1st Round pick - No team would trade their 1st Round pick.

The cumulative value of 3-4 of Miami's Day 3 guys doesn't equal the value of 1 Alabama 1st Rounder.
 
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Ethnicsands

All-American
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
22,503
I think people aren't appreciating the gap between Miami and Alabama.
Think of it this way:

Could you trade Jaquan Johnson, Sheldrick Redwine, and Mike Jackson (All day 3 picks) for either Minkah Fitzpatrick or Trevon Diggs? No
Could you trade Mark Walton, Travis Homer, and DeeJay Dallas (All day 3 picks) for either Derrick Henry or Najee Harris? No

If an NFL team offered 2 4th's, 2 5th's, and 1 6th Round pick for a 1st Round pick - No team would trade their 1st Round pick.

The cumulative value of 3-4 of Miami's Day 3 guys doesn't equal the value of 1 Alabama 1st Rounder.
No offense but i 100% disagree with you. We do not need to be 2001 Miami to compete with Alabama. Clemson has two titles with a mix of solid players and nfl players and great quarterbacking. Jaquan Johnson is much better than some of the guys who suited up for Clemson. You’re just not right here.

We need to get MASSIVELY better at OL, WR, LB and QB. And obviously these days at CB. But we can with a natty easily if we have a team full of guys who can play at Jaquan’s level. You’re focused on the wrong thing here, imo.
 
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Ethnicsands

All-American
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
22,503
In terms of beating Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson, etc. as the goal

Maybe if we have multiple Day 1/2 guys at both LB and DL - then we can get away with an all Day 3 Secondary.

QB, OL, WR, RB - We need Day 1/2 guys at any combination of 3 of those 4 positions. Doesn't necessarily have to be OL, or QB - but we need 3.

If we consistently roll out 11 Day 3 guys on offense, and 11 Day 3 guys on defense - that's enough to become a consistent 10-12 win team.

22 Day 3 guys catches one of the big boys in a single game. But it doesn't break off a 3 game run of beating Clemson, Ohio St, Alabama.
You’re playing fantasy football in this discussion. Do we need some guys better than low round picks somewhere to win a title? Of course. But you have 22 places to put them. The issue for us is what is around them. Not a dispute about whether they must be at safety or not. If our guys are as good as Jaquan, we’re in GREAT shape. We’d have one of the best UN teams ever. And yes, we’d need a couple guys who are a bit more elite athletically. Hopefully they’ll be at DL and WR.
 

AK_Cane

Junior
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
2,194
I was watching some old 2001 games, and one thing that stood out was our size. Miami was the bigger team in every game. Butch recruited big body types and built them up. There are several reasons why teams like Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia and Oklahoma are always contenders, but the most obvious reason is their team size.

When TRob had his initial press conference, he said flat-out that Miami needs to keep its big guys home if they want to compete with the top teams. It's no coincidence he's the lead recruiter for Kenyatta Jackson despite being a DB coach. I sense that getting bigger and more physical is our top priority in the offseason.

We've already seen this in several ways. We took DeAndre Johnson, who is physically mature and good against the run. We brought in a giant and aggressive CB in Tyrique Stevenson. Finally, we signed Cody Brown to give us another big back along with Thad Franklin. That 4th and 1 stuff against UNC was unacceptable. There's a reason you don't see scatbacks on the field in the Playoffs.

Of course, it's a balance. Golden tried to make us a Big 10 team and flopped miserably. But the best modern teams combine explosive playmaking and defensive speed with sheer physicality. Here are a few moves that could improve our team size before Bama:

- Bring in a transfer OL. The fact that Justice offered his old OL from UNLV (320 pounds, 685 lb. squat) tells me he thinks he's better than what we have inside.
- Give Navaughn Donaldson and Jalen Rivers every chance to win jobs. You can't hand them the jobs, but they instantly make us a bigger and more physical team if they are on the field.
- Give Scaife reps at center. Gaynor will be the favorite (Lashlee and Justice both talked him up) but you at least have more flexibility and get some bigger bodies reps at G.
- Bring in a transfer LB > 230 pounds. They need to run, too, but Bama and Ohio State had LBs in the 235-240 range on the field in the title game. We didn't have anybody crack 230 and struggled to replace 240-pound Shaq. I'm still mad we passed on Diego Fagot (6'3, 240), who is a star for Navy.
- Utilize more unbalanced lines. Now that we have better numbers and more prep time, I'd love to see us get as many of our people-movers on the field as much as possible. We did that a bunch in the Stoutland era.

The Alabama game will tell us a lot about how we stack up physically and how far we still have to go.
Dude, I agree with the Diego take, I was so mad when we didn't take him. We had every opportunity to take him and had room. Made 0 sense
 

bshaw28

Junior
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
2,689
No offense but i 100% disagree with you. We do not need to be 2001 Miami to compete with Alabama. Clemson has two titles with a mix of solid players and nfl players and great quarterbacking. Jaquan Johnson is much better than some of the guys who suited up for Clemson. You’re just not right here.

We need to get MASSIVELY better at OL, WR, LB and QB. And obviously these days at CB. But we can with a natty easily if we have a team full of guys who can play at Jaquan’s level. You’re focused on the wrong thing here, imo.
We won't see eye to eye here - and I respect your opinion. But IMO, a lot of Canes fans have a perception vs reality gap (which is every fanbase)

Example - You said Jaquan was 2nd Team All American. He was actually 2nd Team All-ACC

The last Clemson Defense to win the NC you said had "a mix of solid players and NFL players", actually had:

5 - 1st Rounders
1 - 2nd Rounder
1- 3rd Rounder

So if 7 of your 11 starters are Day 1 or 2 picks is what you mean by "a mix of solid players and NFL players" - then I agree that you can get away with starting a 6th round guy like Jaquan as your 7th or 8th best player on Defense.

BUT EVEN THEN - you need to pair all that Defensive talent with an Elite Offense that has:

An Elite QB like Trevor Lawrence, handing off to an Elite RB like Etienne, and throwing to an Elite group of WR's like Higgins/Ross/Rodgers.

2020 Alabama, 2019 LSU, 2018 Clemson - All had a majority of their starters on both Offense and Defense drafted in Day 1&2 of the NFL Draft.

Do we need to be as good as 2001 Miami? No. But we need to be in the same ballpark. That's what it takes to win an NC these days.
 
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CFLCane

Junior
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
6,810
Excuse me kind sir. Its all about the motion of the ocean. We even have jerseys made of sea trash.
 

Jassid82

Senior
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
7,614
Um, Bush was a true 4 star, & Jenkins was a true 3 star. Williams is a true 5 star, Bolden was a true 4 star, Williams was a true 4 star, and Kamren is barely a 4 star.

The fact is, as fans, we gas up the new guys all the time w/o seeing them on the field, and then become sorely disappointed if they don’t meet the prerequisites.

JJ, SR, Bush, & RJ were damn good here. Hence, although Bolden, Hall, & Carter were ranked higher than the combo of JJ & SR, our S play dipped dramatically. Furthermore, our problem has not been talent at the S position, per 247; our problem has been LB recruiting since 2016, WR recruiting since 2016 (sans Richards), DT recruiting since 2015, OL recruiting since 2014, QB recruiting (despite the star ratings) since 1999, CB recruiting since 2012...which is y we’ve been such a big player in the portal game.

Either we’re not recruiting appropriate to evaluation or scheme fit, developing from an IQ/football nutritional standpoint, or coaching. Imo, it’s been a combination, but every year we say the same chit, that the room is “loaded w/ talent.” When has the room not been loaded w/ talent?

Um, Bush was a true 4 star, & Jenkins was a true 3 star. Williams is a true 5 star, Bolden was a true 4 star, Williams was a true 4 star, and Kamren is barely a 4 star.

The fact is, as fans, we gas up the new guys all the time w/o seeing them on the field, and then become sorely disappointed if they don’t meet the prerequisites.

JJ, SR, Bush, & RJ were damn good here. Hence, although Bolden, Hall, & Carter were ranked higher than the combo of JJ & SR, our S play dipped dramatically. Furthermore, our problem has not been talent at the S position, per 247; our problem has been LB recruiting since 2016, WR recruiting since 2016 (sans Richards), DT recruiting since 2015, OL recruiting since 2014, QB recruiting (despite the star ratings) since 1999, CB recruiting since 2012...which is y we’ve been such a big player in the portal game.

Either we’re not recruiting appropriate to evaluation or scheme fit, developing from an IQ/football nutritional standpoint, or coaching. Imo, it’s been a combination, but every year we say the same chit, that the room is “loaded w/ talent.” When has the room not been loaded w/ talent?
We can argue stars all day. The reality is...The combination of JW, AW, KK and BB is better than the combo of DB, RJ, SR and JaqJohn as natural safeties coming out of HS. I dont think that is debatable. AW and JW were the #1 safeties in the country coming out of HS. The safety room talent wise is better than its ever been. Now we just have to develop them. Like Coach Macho says, you get better results when you recruit better players.
 

bshaw28

Junior
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
2,689
You’re playing fantasy football in this discussion. Do we need some guys better than low round picks somewhere to win a title? Of course. But you have 22 places to put them. The issue for us is what is around them. Not a dispute about whether they must be at safety or not. If our guys are as good as Jaquan, we’re in GREAT shape. We’d have one of the best UN teams ever. And yes, we’d need a couple guys who are a bit more elite athletically. Hopefully they’ll be at DL and WR.

It's not Fantasy Football. In real life - which one of the 3 trade scenarios I outlined would you make?

Jaquan was a great college player. He was smart, instinctual, and was the heart of our defense. GREAT college player.

But in NFL terms - he was super small at 191 lbs (8th percentile), super slow at 4.69 40 (12th percentile) - and the NFL saw him as a 6th Round pick.

I love Jaquan - but being realistic, guys like that can't be your best player. We're not in great shape if we have a bunch of unathletic over-achievers.

Let me ask you - what's your definition of "some guys" and "better than low round"? Like - of the 22 starters - how many of those guys do you think we need?
 

Ethnicsands

All-American
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
22,503
It's not Fantasy Football. In real life - which one of the 3 trade scenarios I outlined would you make?

Jaquan was a great college player. He was smart, instinctual, and was the heart of our defense. GREAT college player.

But in NFL terms - he was super small at 191 lbs (8th percentile), super slow at 4.69 40 (12th percentile) - and the NFL saw him as a 6th Round pick.

I love Jaquan - but being realistic, guys like that can't be your best player. We're not in great shape if we have a bunch of unathletic over-achievers.

Let me ask you - what's your definition of "some guys" and "better than low round"? Like - of the 22 starters - how many of those guys do you think we need?
LMAO. In real life, college teams do not get to trade players like that. So yes, you are playing fantasy here.

You're talking about the NFL. I don't give an eff about that. I'm interested in MIAMI winning in college. JJ's deficiencies for the NFL didn't hold him back from being a great college player. Gino Toretta won the Hesiman. He wasn't right for the NFL either. You want to punt on him, too?

You're not being realistic at all. You're deluded. No one said JJ should be our 'best' player. It's an absurd comment. You're caught up in a semantic debate with yourself. The reality is, JJ WAS OUR BEST PLAYER that year. And we need MORE guys like him. If our staff keeps trying to recruit future NFL players, we'll get nowhere. Recruit great football players and show you can win with them and in due course, you'll get more guys who are both great players and better athletes than JJ. But we will never be harmed by having guys as good as JJ, and if we had a team full of them, we'd be 12-0 almost every season, have a great shot against Clemson in the ACCCG and who knows int he playoffs. But it's not an 'either-or' choice - that's where you're lost in a debate with yourself. The way we average up in overall talent is get more better guys and win with them. Do that and we'll keep getting more guys who can go rounds 1-2.

And keep in mind, JJ was in my view a better college player than Artie Burns was. Artie going higher in the NFL draft doesn't change that. It shows that the NFL saw his potential for their game. I want to see guys show their full potential at UM. Give me Jaquan over Artie (no offense to Artie) at UM.

As for your last question, it's a silly question because there is no answer to it. We need to keep averaging up and getting better. There's no number of high picks vs. lower picks. Some guys play great at UM but get picked low because of their NFL ceiling. Others are okay at UM but get picked higher because of their NFL ceiling. Your question is not helpful. Jaquan was better than 95% of our roster most of the last decade. Worry about how to get more guys like that rather than look down your nose at him.
 

Ethnicsands

All-American
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
22,503
We won't see eye to eye here - and I respect your opinion. But IMO, a lot of Canes fans have a perception vs reality gap (which is every fanbase)

Example - You said Jaquan was 2nd Team All American. He was actually 2nd Team All-ACC

The last Clemson Defense to win the NC you said had "a mix of solid players and NFL players", actually had:

5 - 1st Rounders
1 - 2nd Rounder
1- 3rd Rounder

So if 7 of your 11 starters are Day 1 or 2 picks is what you mean by "a mix of solid players and NFL players" - then I agree that you can get away with starting a 6th round guy like Jaquan as your 7th or 8th best player on Defense.

BUT EVEN THEN - you need to pair all that Defensive talent with an Elite Offense that has:

An Elite QB like Trevor Lawrence, handing off to an Elite RB like Etienne, and throwing to an Elite group of WR's like Higgins/Ross/Rodgers.

2020 Alabama, 2019 LSU, 2018 Clemson - All had a majority of their starters on both Offense and Defense drafted in Day 1&2 of the NFL Draft.

Do we need to be as good as 2001 Miami? No. But we need to be in the same ballpark. That's what it takes to win an NC these days.
You're lost in the type of NFL Hype that we've seen in past threads here. It's pointless. 2001 Miami had 19 first round picks, by the way.

In any case, the idea that Jaquan would ever be the 8th best guy on defense because other guys got drafted higher is crazy and dead wrong to me. He was a glue and great defensive player AT MIAMI. We could well have guys who go higher because of potential. Doesn't mean they're better or more valuable at UM. The NFL statistics around here has been hemlock for the fan base. We get so distracted by irrelevancies. Focus on who helps us win here, makes plays here, leads the culture and team, sets the tone . Focus on those guys and we'll get going towards where we want to be. Focus on guys who have the athletic potential to be NFL players and we'll keep chasing our tail.

Oh, and JJ did make HM all america, and iirc someone had him as a second-team AA. Yes, he was also second-team all ACC. Lou Hedley was second team all acc in '20 btw.
 

DMoney

D-Moni
Administrator
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
15,831
You're lost in the type of NFL Hype that we've seen in past threads here. It's pointless. 2001 Miami had 19 first round picks, by the way.

In any case, the idea that Jaquan would ever be the 8th best guy on defense because other guys got drafted higher is crazy and dead wrong to me. He was a glue and great defensive player AT MIAMI. We could well have guys who go higher because of potential. Doesn't mean they're better or more valuable at UM. The NFL statistics around here has been hemlock for the fan base. We get so distracted by irrelevancies. Focus on who helps us win here, makes plays here, leads the culture and team, sets the tone . Focus on those guys and we'll get going towards where we want to be. Focus on guys who have the athletic potential to be NFL players and we'll keep chasing our tail.
Jaquan would have started on the 2001 team. Like you said, he wasn’t the problem.
 
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