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Perspective on going from competitive to Elite: Clemson's Rise to Dominance

Caneofcanes said:
SHANNON TRIED TO ADJUST, BUT HE DID NOT HAVE THE SAME RESOURCES AS GOLDEN.
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Yes. Shannon was put on an austere budget just as college football spending ramped up, particularly in the SEC.

Golden had more resources, but not that much more. He was still struggling to get a proper nutrition program funded through much of his tenure.

Richt was probably the first head coach to get the resources needed for a modern program. I think Manny does as well, perhaps even moreso.
 
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TimeB0mb said:
It also seems that people forget that Clemson football buys recruits. A Clemson basketball coach was caught on tape admitting this. That might have played a small part.
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My points about recruiting were to demonstrate that we can build a team that can compete with the likes of Clemson, OSU, and Bama with classes inside the top 12 if those classes have balance at all positions and we hit on a QB.
 
Kn[]_[]ckles3o5 said:
Dabo Swinney and the Clemson Tiger's have sat atop the ACC since FSU's post-Jameis/Jimbo swoon began.

Here is how it came to be:

Swinney took over a 7-6 squad in 2009 and produced a competitive team that went 9-5 and played for the ACC championship losing to GT for the second time that season. Other losses included Maryland , TCU, and South Carolina. Modest improvement considering the previous year.

Side note: Miami was 9-4 that season and narrowly lost to Clemson at home in OT. We also defeated GT handily at home but as usual donked off a couple conference games on the road and finished well behind GT for a shot in the ACCCG

The following year Swinney came out and **** the bed going 6-7 in 2010. I'm sure he was on the hot seat following that season. Miami had a slightly better but similar year and a late season loss to USF cost Randy Shannon his job and Al Golden was brought in along with "The Cloud."

2011 was a step in the right direction for Dabo. His slightly more mature talent was able to muster a respectable 10-4 season. Obviously not good enough by Miami standards but not terrible either for a team trying to get over the hump. What should have been a great season with a big win early against perennial division and conference favorite FSU was spoiled by late season losses to in conference, middling teams GT, NC ST, and rival South Carolina. The season crash landed with an embarrassing bowl stomping by West Virginia, this was the birth of "Clemsoning" and were Dabo the coach at Miami he may well have been canned.

2012 was a season in which Clemson became a threat to the power that was FSU at the time. The first recruiting classes that Dabo had pieced together had matured into a very competitive and confident squad. Clemson lost two games that season to quality teams in FSU and South Carolina, both finished the season ranked. Clemson capped off a good year by defeating LSU in the Chik Fil A bowl by 1 pt 25-24, finishing 11-2 in year 4.

Side note: Recruiting at Clemson had not been bad prior to Dabo although the 2009 and 2010 classes were fairly poor 36th and 27th. Still, to this point Clemson was a top 10-15 recruiting team and would remain as such for the foreseeable future. The 2020 class was the first top 5 class under Dabo. Clemson has had just four top 10 recruiting classes under Dabo. 2015 (9th), 2018 (7th), 2019 (10th), and 2020 (3rd)

2013 was a mirror of 2012. Two losses to their biggest rivals. One a thrashing by Florida State at home 51-13 (in year 5 of Dabo's tenure) and the other loss to South Carolina, again, at the end of the season on the road. They managed an impressive bowl victory against OSU in the Orange Bowl to somewhat salvage the season and finish 11-2.

Clemson took a slight step back in 2014 losing to every ranked team they played during the regular season. A big win against Oklahoma capped an otherwise pedestrian year to go 10-3. It is worth noting a TF Deshaun Watson played but was not a starter and did not play in the bowl game against Oklahoma.

In 2015 Deshaun Watson took over as starting QB for Clemson and took them all the way to the National Championship game losing in a barn burner to Alabama. The following season Watson and Clemson won the title. The National Championship win removed the "Clemsoning" monkey from Dabo's back and solidified his reputation as an elite coach in CFB. They have dominated the ACC ever since and have been in the National Title game 5 straight seasons, going 2-3 in that span.

To be honest Clemson didn't achieve much of anything until they hit on a QB eval in Watson, they were lucky to follow that up with another elite NFL level QB in Lawrence. In fact the past 10 or so champions had 1st round talent at the QB position. Only Alabama has managed to win a National Title with mediocre QB play by having an oppressive defense and ridiculous O line and running game. We probably will never recruit in the trenches at a level that will allow us to dominate regardless of our air game and even Alabama has begun to transition away from that style as the game becomes more open and defense becomes more difficult to play. The key to winning a national title in today's landscape is to build a solid team on both sides of the ball and then hit on a QB eval. We will likely continue to come up short until we hit on a QB with 1st round talent. The key is for us to hang around that 10-2/11-1 range and recruit in the top 10 or so to stay well stocked for when the time comes that we hit on a QB.

All this to say that the road to dominance requires patience and some luck. Even if we stumble down the stretch this year that does not mean all hope is lost. Manny has proven that he can field a competitive defense even when he doesn't have great players at every level. That defense can be dominant when he has the right talent. It appears he is recruiting that type of talent right now. The jury is still out on the offense but the holes in this current team are evident and the staff is working to fill them. Winning in spite of deficiencies is the mark of a good staff. We may not look great doing it right now but it takes time to build a program that can dominate decent football teams week in and week out.
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Great post. I was looking at this too the other night. A big thing Dabo did between the 6-7 season and the 10-4 season is fire Billy Napier and hire Chad Morris who brought in a spread system. If you look at the team's increase in ppg from the 6-7 season to the 10-4 season it looks a lot like Miami's improvement after hiring Lashlee. And in season 2 of Chad Morris implementing his system, the offense went to another level. If Lashlee and King stay, with the development of the offensive line, I would expect a similar jump in year 2 of the offensive system.

Our expectations as a fan base are unrealistic. It's not built overnight. Clemson was a lot like this Miami team until they hit on back to back generational talents at QB.
 
Rellyrell said:
Siiiiiigh:

I feel like every season, we’re given these types of OPs to give hope:
-Golden compared to Butch’s first 4 yr
-Richt compared to Jimmy Johnson
-Now Manny compared to Dabo

Context is everything w/ Clemson’s rise:

1. It started with the 2009 class. The class of ‘09 was the 36th ranked class, but it had a very, Very important recruit....it was the #3 and 5 star QB Tahj Boyd. Once Tahj developed, which was around his Sophomore yr, Dabo won no less than 10 games/yr. (That happened in yr 2 1/2 of his HC tenure)

2. Dabo started using the philosophy of quality over quantity in recruiting (same as Butch.) His talent evaluation was fire. Ppl see his first two classes in 2009 & 2010 and the see the rankings of 36th & 27th and be like “omg, those were horrible classes.” They were 36th & 27th b/c they were small classes but they contained gems! Tahj Boyd, D Hopkins, M. Bryant, M. Goodman, D. Robinson, etc. Those classes complimented the misused talent that were recruited under Bowden.

3. After the embarrassing losses in 2011, and the shear amount of points given up in those games, Dabo hired one of the best DCs/LB coaches in the nation, the same guy we passed on as a HC, in Brent V. That hire paid immediate dividends.

4. Being that Dabo played WR, he knew how important the QB evaluation is, and from Tahj to DJ Uiagalelei, Dabo has hit the mark on thee most important position in football.

5. The boosters rallied around Dabo, and so did the administration. The school was investing in itself. Brent was broke off $1m to come coach, and whatever Brent needed on his side of the ball, he got w/o any ?’s. There was no penny pinching or duck tape process.


Now; let’s talk about Manny. I will give Manny credit for immediately changing the OC, But he also wasted $1m by hiring & waited to hire said OC. OK; no worries....new offensive staff brought in & hopefully some positive continuity can be established.

Let’s talk about our QB room. We are already talking about going to the portal for next season if King foolishly leaves. That’s a problem. Furthermore, we had to get King b/c our QB room was f’d up. That’s a problem. King is a fringe P5 QB that will give you some good games (see UVA) & some not so good games (see Clemson, Pitt). That’s a problem.

Let’s talk about our evals; or “possibly” lack thereof. Our classes have looked good on paper, but the guys are not living up and/or “potentially” coached up to their rankings. Is that coaching or bad evals? Furthermore, attrition is decimating us. Can’t field a competent team, when guys are leaving at an alarming pace. Either way Clemson has been kicking our *** in these depts and that started happening a while ago.

Boosters. How committed are our boosters to this school when they talk about E before W? We’ve sprayed champagne on ourselves for the IPF, while Clemson was completely remodeling their ENTIRE athletic facilities.

Here’s my point; it is absolutely foolish to compare Manny to Dabo. Miami is not Clemson & Clemson is not Miami. Until we get the QB room legit, until we get our evals right, until Manny stop thinking that scraping by **** poor teams who we are vastly superior than, is a means to celebrate like a child, until we get our recruiting in order at the two most important positions in football now (QB, and CB), then we are not going to see growth both on & off the field.

***And as a side note, can we further explain that 2010 season in which Dabo went 6-7
-The 7 teams he lost to had a combined record of 63-31 including the eventual Nat’l Champs & all teams had a winning record.

-We went 6-7 against a combined opponents record of 50-39 that included 3 teams with sub .500 records***

Not trying to break balls, but it really feels like groundhogs day around here. Clemson & Dabo is a **** poor example for us, UNLESS we see meteoric changes in the QB room & CB room & thus far that just don’t look the part.
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It's a good theoretical roadmap to look at. It doesn't mean that Miami or any other school can follow it. But a successful head coach who can recruit and gradually build up the talent level might, provided they can bring in a strong quarterback.

Regarding Miami's 6-7 season, it's easily 9-4 or 10-2 if one player is changed on the team. Just one player - the kicker.

Dabo had six years to gradually ramp up his program. During the same time, Miami had:

1. A head coach who refused to change from a defensive scheme that was horribly suited for our talent
2. Inherited a very lopsided roster - the majority of the best talent were 3rd and 4th year players due to a terribly attrited 2010 class and an obliterated 2011 class. Miami needed Top 5 classes from in 2012 and 2013 just to keep the blue chip roster even with the losses we saw as the third and fourth year players left
3. A three year NCAA investigation that hampered recruiting efforts. I think Golden would probably have been able to fully replenish talent if the Shapiro investigation was not ongoing. Instead he was hampered in that regard from almost the very beginning, and by the time the investigation was over recruits had a sample size of Miami's results. So we went from around 40 blue chip players in 2009 to barely half that amount three years later.

And overall in the last decade, Clemson has had the think that is most ideal for programs...consistency. The DC and OC remain the same, inexplicably not leaving for other jobs. Players who should go pro and would be drafted highly - a lot of them stay. And the head coach has been the same.

From 2010 onward Miami has had:
4 head coaches
6 offensive coordinators (N'Kosi Perry for instance is on his third offensive coordinator in three seasons)
4 defensive coordinators
 
The road to the top is arduous unless you have an urban Meyer or nick saban who can win right away in their first or 2nd year.

I think even more important than anything mentioned in the op is venables. Clemson’s defense was never littered with 5 star studs everywhere. In fact you even had former walkons playing and venables made them elite after the clown show vs WV.

What gives me hope for Manny is he’s truly invested. This job isn’t a means to an end and he’s working tirelessly to be successful.

Unfortunately, there are still a lot of warts. The team is sloppy and undisciplined, and that has nothing to do with talent level and everything to do with coaching.

No amount of hopeful optimism can dispute that.
 
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GojiraCane said:
It's a good theoretical roadmap to look at. It doesn't mean that Miami or any other school can follow it. But a successful head coach who can recruit and gradually build up the talent level might, provided they can bring in a strong quarterback.

Regarding Miami's 6-7 season, it's easily 9-4 or 10-2 if one player is changed on the team. Just one player - the kicker.

Dabo had six years to gradually ramp up his program. During the same time, Miami had:

1. A head coach who refused to change from a defensive scheme that was horribly suited for our talent
2. Inherited a very lopsided roster - the majority of the best talent were 3rd and 4th year players due to a terribly attrited 2010 class and an obliterated 2011 class. Miami needed Top 5 classes from in 2012 and 2013 just to keep the blue chip roster even with the losses we saw as the third and fourth year players left
3. A three year NCAA investigation that hampered recruiting efforts. I think Golden would probably have been able to fully replenish talent if the Shapiro investigation was not ongoing. Instead he was hampered in that regard from almost the very beginning, and by the time the investigation was over recruits had a sample size of Miami's results. So we went from around 40 blue chip players in 2009 to barely half that amount three years later.

And overall in the last decade, Clemson has had the think that is most ideal for programs...consistency. The DC and OC remain the same, inexplicably not leaving for other jobs. Players who should go pro and would be drafted highly - a lot of them stay. And the head coach has been the same.

From 2010 onward Miami has had:
4 head coaches
6 offensive coordinators (N'Kosi Perry for instance is on his third offensive coordinator in three seasons)
4 defensive coordinators
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I keep hearing the parroting of “if we had a fg kicker we would be....”

That’s the first mistake; we shouldn’t be needing to rely on a fg kicker. A game is not won or loss based upon a fg. On paper, yes, but throughout the game, when u r vastly superior than ur opponent, it shouldn’t have to come down to a fg.

But I agree w/ u; cohesion & consistency w/ our staff is needed. We’ve had way too much turnover, but the REASON why there has been such turnover is b/c of **** poor decisions, and that includes hiring Golden who had 27-34 record prior to coming here. Hiring a fired Richt who was clearly on his last legs as the game was passing him by. Hiring Manny, who had already committed to another job, who then hired a **** poor OC in which he was forced to fire him! Lol

Let’s not act like our wounds have not been self inflicted, again, both on & off the field.
 
Canes6292 said:
Great post. I was looking at this too the other night. A big thing Dabo did between the 6-7 season and the 10-4 season is fire Billy Napier and hire Chad Morris who brought in a spread system. If you look at the team's increase in ppg from the 6-7 season to the 10-4 season it looks a lot like Miami's improvement after hiring Lashlee. And in season 2 of Chad Morris implementing his system, the offense went to another level. If Lashlee and King stay, with the development of the offensive line, I would expect a similar jump in year 2 of the offensive system.

Our expectations as a fan base are unrealistic. It's not built overnight. Clemson was a lot like this Miami team until they hit on back to back generational talents at QB.
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I whole heartedly disagree w u on your take of our expectations.

1. We are NOT CLEMSON. We are THE U. We are a national brand and forced our way as an elite program. Clemson had no identity.

2. Most here are not preaching national title, we’re preaching competency. This program has shown a lack of competency from an administrative level to the coaching level.

3. Most fans are upset b/c we literally took the Ferrari and willingly crashed it with **** poor decisions after **** poor decisions. Mark Richt did this University an absolute favor, and walked away as a man, and what did Blake do?

4. Fans look at our schedule each yr, and we see the cupcakes and it’s infuriating how we constantly trip ourselves up to ****, **** poor teams.

I’ve always preached that it takes at least 5 yrs to get a program up & running, and that’s total b.s, per new evidence.
-Dabo got Clemson to 10+ wins by yr 3

-Coach O got LSU to 10+ wins by yr 3

-Jim Harbaugh got UCSD to 10+ wins in yr 2, Stanford to 10+ wins by yr 4, and Meeechigan to 10+wins immediately

-Urban Meyers got Utah to 10+ wins by yr 2, UF to 10+ wins yr 2, and OSU to 10+ wins immediately

-Matt Rhule got Temple & Baylor to 10+ wins by yr 3

-Gary Patterson got TCU by yr 2

Etc, etc. The point is, it is not unrealistic to expect growth within a certain time frame. Miami is no different than any other school, yet we have a billion & 1 excuses as to why we are.
 
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Thanks OP. Oh the narratives on here. It's like Hatfield vs McCoy's, Biden vs Trump.

No question it takes time unless you take on a team already on cruise control. What is the time? Who knows for sure but it takes a solid run of a recruiting cycle, four years, steady recruiting and luck!

Let's look at Dabo and what he did since everyone is highly fixated on his keen eye for QB-
2009 ~ Taj Boyd...homerun recruit
2010 ~ no QB taken but they signed NFL talent ~ Martavis Bryant, Breeland, Vic Beasley and Deandre Hopkins
2011 ~ bombs on two QB's Tony McNeil and Cole Stoudt. Does land Sammy Watkins and DeShaun Williams
2012 ~ bombs with QB Chad Kelly...lands Shaq Lawson, Tankersley and Reader
2013 ~ no QB...does land Mike Williams
2014 ~ the bell cow DeShaun Watson...class overall was 16th ranked and third in the ACC(247)
2015 ~ lands QB's Kelly Bryant who turned out to be below average and Tucker Israel. Did land the #9 class ~ Cain, Wilkins and Ferrell
2016 ~ lands QB Zerrick Cooper who bombed...class rank is #11 (247) with the prize being Dexter Lawrence
2017 ~ lands QB's Hunter Johnson and Chase Brice who both bombed...bell cow recruits Higgins, Etienne and Terrell
2018 ~ the landing of Sunshine himself at QB...The ultimate homerun! The #7 class
2019 ~ lands QB Taisun Phommachanh which is incomplete grade at this time...class overall is #10...also continues stacking WR's Ladson and Ngata
2020 ~ lands QB DJ Uiagalelei which is incomplete grade at this time. class rank of #3.

For those that say Dabo is the "QB whisperer" he sure as **** struck out more than got right. Boyd, Watson and Sunshine an A++. He failed with McNeil, Stoudt, Kelly, Bryant, Israel, Cooper, Johnson and Brice. I'll stop there as 19 and 20 is too early to tell. That's EIGHT QB misses out of 11 signings over a 10 year period.

1. Recruit the **** out of QB's every year. Get them into school, create competition and let the best man win. Forget this BS with participation trophies and feelings hurt. Play well or GTFOH!
2. Land WR's ! Top level QB's want studs on the outside and Dabo has done that well.
3. DL..DL...DL...A+ for Dabo and this an area Manny stacks up with Dabo.
4. The intangibles which is bringing on the best coaches to fit what you're trying to do and keep them. Dabo has done a good job here with continuity. And no, I'm not saying sign a Venables as we know UM will not pay that kind of coin. Find the right coach for less but that has the desire and aspirations to excel.

Clemson is a great comparison as they are the kings of the ACC and it's what we want. To dethrone them!

Go CANES!
 
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Rellyrell said:
Siiiiiigh:

I feel like every season, we’re given these types of OPs to give hope:
-Golden compared to Butch’s first 4 yr
-Richt compared to Jimmy Johnson
-Now Manny compared to Dabo

Context is everything w/ Clemson’s rise:

1. It started with the 2009 class. The class of ‘09 was the 36th ranked class, but it had a very, Very important recruit....it was the #3 and 5 star QB Tahj Boyd. Once Tahj developed, which was around his Sophomore yr, Dabo won no less than 10 games/yr. (That happened in yr 2 1/2 of his HC tenure)

2. Dabo started using the philosophy of quality over quantity in recruiting (same as Butch.) His talent evaluation was fire. Ppl see his first two classes in 2009 & 2010 and the see the rankings of 36th & 27th and be like “omg, those were horrible classes.” They were 36th & 27th b/c they were small classes but they contained gems! Tahj Boyd, D Hopkins, M. Bryant, M. Goodman, D. Robinson, etc. Those classes complimented the misused talent that were recruited under Bowden.

3. After the embarrassing losses in 2011, and the shear amount of points given up in those games, Dabo hired one of the best DCs/LB coaches in the nation, the same guy we passed on as a HC, in Brent V. That hire paid immediate dividends.

4. Being that Dabo played WR, he knew how important the QB evaluation is, and from Tahj to DJ Uiagalelei, Dabo has hit the mark on thee most important position in football.

5. The boosters rallied around Dabo, and so did the administration. The school was investing in itself. Brent was broke off $1m to come coach, and whatever Brent needed on his side of the ball, he got w/o any ?’s. There was no penny pinching or duck tape process.


Now; let’s talk about Manny. I will give Manny credit for immediately changing the OC, But he also wasted $1m by hiring & waited to hire said OC. OK; no worries....new offensive staff brought in & hopefully some positive continuity can be established.

Let’s talk about our QB room. We are already talking about going to the portal for next season if King foolishly leaves. That’s a problem. Furthermore, we had to get King b/c our QB room was f’d up. That’s a problem. King is a fringe P5 QB that will give you some good games (see UVA) & some not so good games (see Clemson, Pitt). That’s a problem.

Let’s talk about our evals; or “possibly” lack thereof. Our classes have looked good on paper, but the guys are not living up and/or “potentially” coached up to their rankings. Is that coaching or bad evals? Furthermore, attrition is decimating us. Can’t field a competent team, when guys are leaving at an alarming pace. Either way Clemson has been kicking our *** in these depts and that started happening a while ago.

Boosters. How committed are our boosters to this school when they talk about E before W? We’ve sprayed champagne on ourselves for the IPF, while Clemson was completely remodeling their ENTIRE athletic facilities.

Here’s my point; it is absolutely foolish to compare Manny to Dabo. Miami is not Clemson & Clemson is not Miami. Until we get the QB room legit, until we get our evals right, until Manny stop thinking that scraping by **** poor teams who we are vastly superior than, is a means to celebrate like a child, until we get our recruiting in order at the two most important positions in football now (QB, and CB), then we are not going to see growth both on & off the field.

***And as a side note, can we further explain that 2010 season in which Dabo went 6-7
-The 7 teams he lost to had a combined record of 63-31 including the eventual Nat’l Champs & all teams had a winning record.

-We went 6-7 against a combined opponents record of 50-39 that included 3 teams with sub .500 records***

Not trying to break balls, but it really feels like groundhogs day around here. Clemson & Dabo is a **** poor example for us, UNLESS we see meteoric changes in the QB room & CB room & thus far that just don’t look the part.
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It’s all about how you look at it...This is a COVID year let’s see how this affects every program with recruiting, evaluations, development heck even finishing the season. Also we have no idea what Van Dyke is at Qb maybe there’s something there based on everything we have heard. Manny also has had one real class so far which is the 2020 class and again we don’t know what that will be. Miami for all the talk about not spending hired an OC that made $1 mill and idk how much lashlee is making but I’m sure it’s up there. At the end of the day you have to wait and see how the rest of this season plays out, even how next year (hopefully everything is back to some sort of normal) plays out. I’m sure in Dabo first few years ppl were saying and comparing the negatives also but again you don’t know how it would’ve turned out
 
Rellyrell said:
I keep hearing the parroting of “if we had a fg kicker we would be....”

That’s the first mistake; we shouldn’t be needing to rely on a fg kicker. A game is not won or loss based upon a fg. On paper, yes, but throughout the game, when u r vastly superior than ur opponent, it shouldn’t have to come down to a fg.

But I agree w/ u; cohesion & consistency w/ our staff is needed. We’ve had way too much turnover, but the REASON why there has been such turnover is b/c of **** poor decisions, and that includes hiring Golden who had 27-34 record prior to coming here. Hiring a fired Richt who was clearly on his last legs as the game was passing him by. Hiring Manny, who had already committed to another job, who then hired a **** poor OC in which he was forced to fire him! Lol

Let’s not act like our wounds have not been self inflicted, again, both on & off the field.
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Many of them are.

It's kind of a chicken/egg argument. We need consistency in order to build - which is what Clemson has. But we've made such poor decisions in the past that we've had to make changes. Which disrupts consistency. Each head coach and accompanying coordinators have their own ideal of what their player should be, leading in turn to higher than normal roster attrition.

There have been so many seasons now where we have operated under 80 players. The 2009 season cited by the original poster for Miami, where we narrowly lost to Clemson....that loss was entirely attributable to lack of depth. I remember that game and we were badly beaten up going into it. Overall, we were operating with around 72 scholarship players in 2009. It bit us there, and would again in 2013 and in other seasons.

Because of their consistency, as well as many players refusing to go pro, Clemson never has to worry about this.
 
Rellyrell said:
Siiiiiigh:

I feel like every season, we’re given these types of OPs to give hope:
-Golden compared to Butch’s first 4 yr
-Richt compared to Jimmy Johnson
-Now Manny compared to Dabo

Context is everything w/ Clemson’s rise:

1. It started with the 2009 class. The class of ‘09 was the 36th ranked class, but it had a very, Very important recruit....it was the #3 and 5 star QB Tahj Boyd. Once Tahj developed, which was around his Sophomore yr, Dabo won no less than 10 games/yr. (That happened in yr 2 1/2 of his HC tenure)

2. Dabo started using the philosophy of quality over quantity in recruiting (same as Butch.) His talent evaluation was fire. Ppl see his first two classes in 2009 & 2010 and the see the rankings of 36th & 27th and be like “omg, those were horrible classes.” They were 36th & 27th b/c they were small classes but they contained gems! Tahj Boyd, D Hopkins, M. Bryant, M. Goodman, D. Robinson, etc. Those classes complimented the misused talent that were recruited under Bowden.

3. After the embarrassing losses in 2011, and the shear amount of points given up in those games, Dabo hired one of the best DCs/LB coaches in the nation, the same guy we passed on as a HC, in Brent V. That hire paid immediate dividends.

4. Being that Dabo played WR, he knew how important the QB evaluation is, and from Tahj to DJ Uiagalelei, Dabo has hit the mark on thee most important position in football.

5. The boosters rallied around Dabo, and so did the administration. The school was investing in itself. Brent was broke off $1m to come coach, and whatever Brent needed on his side of the ball, he got w/o any ?’s. There was no penny pinching or duck tape process.


Now; let’s talk about Manny. I will give Manny credit for immediately changing the OC, But he also wasted $1m by hiring & waited to hire said OC. OK; no worries....new offensive staff brought in & hopefully some positive continuity can be established.

Let’s talk about our QB room. We are already talking about going to the portal for next season if King foolishly leaves. That’s a problem. Furthermore, we had to get King b/c our QB room was f’d up. That’s a problem. King is a fringe P5 QB that will give you some good games (see UVA) & some not so good games (see Clemson, Pitt). That’s a problem.

Let’s talk about our evals; or “possibly” lack thereof. Our classes have looked good on paper, but the guys are not living up and/or “potentially” coached up to their rankings. Is that coaching or bad evals? Furthermore, attrition is decimating us. Can’t field a competent team, when guys are leaving at an alarming pace. Either way Clemson has been kicking our *** in these depts and that started happening a while ago.

Boosters. How committed are our boosters to this school when they talk about E before W? We’ve sprayed champagne on ourselves for the IPF, while Clemson was completely remodeling their ENTIRE athletic facilities.

Here’s my point; it is absolutely foolish to compare Manny to Dabo. Miami is not Clemson & Clemson is not Miami. Until we get the QB room legit, until we get our evals right, until Manny stop thinking that scraping by **** poor teams who we are vastly superior than, is a means to celebrate like a child, until we get our recruiting in order at the two most important positions in football now (QB, and CB), then we are not going to see growth both on & off the field.

***And as a side note, can we further explain that 2010 season in which Dabo went 6-7
-The 7 teams he lost to had a combined record of 63-31 including the eventual Nat’l Champs & all teams had a winning record.

-We went 6-7 against a combined opponents record of 50-39 that included 3 teams with sub .500 records***

Not trying to break balls, but it really feels like groundhogs day around here. Clemson & Dabo is a **** poor example for us, UNLESS we see meteoric changes in the QB room & CB room & thus far that just don’t look the part.
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Couple of points.

"Boosters" is never going to happen at UM. It's not. Miami is a fundamentally different city and school from the "traditional" southern "booster" schools. I know, I know, some people are going to cite Ohio State or Michigan.

But we all need to realize, "boosters" are a phenomenon that is largely limited to large state schools PREDOMINANTLY in the South. It is a function of people trying to "buy" power, class, and prestige, and to live vicariously through a bunch of 20 year olds that they don't even really care about.

As someone pointed out on another thread, GaTech has a huge percentage of grads that go on to become millionaires. And, sure, the school is in GEORGIA. But GaTech grads aren't insecure wannabes who come back to throw their money around to compensate for their small penises. So that's why you're never going to have "boosters" at GaTech who spend money like the boosters at NEARBY UGa do.

You want to raise money for facilities in this day and age? Hit up the corporations that want to put their names on those facilities. There aren't a lot of T. Boone Pickenses anymore.

As for the coaches, yes, I'm also tired of comparisons. We had 4 coaches in a row who turned (or almost turned) their success at UM into pro coaching jobs. Schnellenberger (almost to the USFL) and JJ, Dennis, and Butch (to the NFL) have been followed by Coker, Shannon, Golden, and Richt.

And, honestly, the biggest issue with Richt (in some ways) is that he DID NOT stay longer, from a continuity standpoint. I'm not saying he would have won championships for us (Butch didn't, but Coker did), but I think a few more years of Richt, followed by a final season that doesn't smell like "forced to retire", might have given us a chance to attract a new coach who wasn't merely "our assistant who just took a G5 job".

I like/respect Manny, but I need more results to "fall in love". Manny could be like our 4 most recent coaches, or he could be more like our 4 prior coaches. THAT is the comparison I want to hear about. Not motherfvcking Dabo Swinney.

Yes, Dabo has a bunch of "got-rich-off-of-government-construction" hillbillies who are willing to commit financial crimes to get a sniff of a successful college football program. Miami is never going to have that.
 
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561Cane said:
Thanks OP. Oh the narratives on here. It's like Hatfield vs McCoy's, Biden vs Trump.

No question it takes time unless you take on a team already on cruise control. What is the time? Who knows for sure but it takes a solid run of a recruiting cycle, four years, steady recruiting and luck!

Let's look at Dabo and what he did since everyone is highly fixated on his keen eye for QB-
2009 ~ Taj Boyd...homerun recruit
2010 ~ no QB taken but they signed NFL talent ~ Martavis Bryant, Breeland, Vic Beasley and Deandre Hopkins
2011 ~ bombs on two QB's Tony McNeil and Cole Stoudt. Does land Sammy Watkins and DeShaun Williams
2012 ~ bombs with QB Chad Kelly...lands Shaq Lawson, Tankersley and Reader
2013 ~ no QB...does land Mike Williams
2014 ~ the bell cow DeShaun Watson...class overall was 16th ranked and third in the ACC(247)
2015 ~ lands QB's Kelly Bryant who turned out to be below average and Tucker Israel. Did land the #9 class ~ Cain, Wilkins and Ferrell
2016 ~ lands QB Zerrick Cooper who bombed...class rank is #11 (247) with the prize being Dexter Lawrence
2017 ~ lands QB's Hunter Johnson and Chase Brice who both bombed...bell cow recruits Higgins, Etienne and Terrell
2018 ~ the landing of Sunshine himself at QB...The ultimate homerun! The #7 class
2019 ~ lands QB Taisun Phommachanh which is incomplete grade at this time...class overall is #10...also continues stacking WR's Ladson and Ngata
2020 ~ lands QB DJ Uiagalelei which is incomplete grade at this time. class rank of #3.

For those that say Dabo is the "QB whisperer" he sure as **** struck out more than got right. Boyd, Watson and Sunshine an A++. He failed with McNeil, Stoudt, Kelly, Bryant, Israel, Cooper, Johnson and Brice. I'll stop there as 19 and 20 is too early to tell. That's EIGHT QB misses out of 11 signings over a 10 year period.

1. Recruit the **** out of QB's every year. Get them into school, create competition and let the best man win. Forget this BS with participation trophies and feelings hurt. Play well or GTFOH!
2. Land WR's ! Top level QB's want studs on the outside and Dabo has done that well.
3. DL..DL...DL...A+ for Dabo and this an area Manny stacks up with Dabo.
4. The intangibles which is bringing on the best coaches to fit what you're trying to do and keep them. Dabo has done a good job here with continuity. And no, I'm not saying sign a Venables as we know UM will not pay that kind of coin. Find the right coach for less but that has the desire and aspirations to excel.

Clemson is a great comparison as they are the kings of the ACC and it's what we want. To dethrone them!

Go CANES!
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Again, like to use Texas as an example as I've been around it now for twenty years:

1999 - Chris Simms (5 stars)....okay career. Could not supplant Applewhite at the start of his career
2000 - Chance Mock (5 stars)....so, so career
2001 - Matt Nordgren...never started
2002 - Vince Young (5 stars)...transcendent talent that singlehandedly brought Texas NC title. Longhorns go 24-1 over two years with him
2003 - None
2004 - None
2005 - Colt McCoy (3 stars)...top-end college QB who is in the NFL as a backup. Longhorns go 45-8 in his four years, going to a NC game
2006 - Jevan Snead (4 stars)...lost out to Colt McCoy and transferred
2007 - None
2008 - None
2009 - Garrett Gilbert (5 stars)...started in 2010, ultimately lost out to David Ash and transferred
2010 - Case McCoy (3 stars)...started numerous games due to performance (Gilbert) and injuries (Ash). Not as good as Colt
2011 - David Ash (3 stars)....good quarterback who supplanted Gilbert. Concussions ended career
2012 - Connor Brewer (4 stars)...transferred out
2012 - Jalen Overstreet (4 stars)...dismissed by Charlie Strong in 2014
2013 - Tyrone Swoops (4 stars)...so so starter in 2014 and 2015
2014 - Jerrod Heard (4 stars)...so so starter moved to WR in 2016
2015 - None
2016 - Shane Buechele (4 stars)...starter in 2016, injured in 2017 and lost job to Ellingher. Doing fantastic at SMU
2017 - Sam Elhinger (4 stars)...best QB in a decade and four year starter
2018 - Casey Thompson (4 stars)...incomplete. Backup
2019 - None
2020 - Hudson Card (4 stars)...incomplete. Backup
2020 - Ja'Quinden Jackson (4 stars)...incomplete. Backup

Four 5 star quarterbacks. Ten 4 star quarterbacks (two with incomplete grades).

Mack recruited thirteen quarterbacks. Two became true difference makers.

Of the fourteen "blue chip" quarterbacks, only two have amounted to be difference making quarterbacks at an elite level for Texas.
 
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Canes6292 said:
Great post. I was looking at this too the other night. A big thing Dabo did between the 6-7 season and the 10-4 season is fire Billy Napier and hire Chad Morris who brought in a spread system. If you look at the team's increase in ppg from the 6-7 season to the 10-4 season it looks a lot like Miami's improvement after hiring Lashlee. And in season 2 of Chad Morris implementing his system, the offense went to another level. If Lashlee and King stay, with the development of the offensive line, I would expect a similar jump in year 2 of the offensive system.

Our expectations as a fan base are unrealistic. It's not built overnight. Clemson was a lot like this Miami team until they hit on back to back generational talents at QB.
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you might be right, but the problem is that we have seen this movie over and over again with coker, shannon, golden and richt and we are expecting the same result (definition of insanity). maybe we need time to see if it is insanity, especially with the vast limitations of this year, but it tastes and looks the same in many respects, hence the disenchantment and the negativity.
 
This again? We go through this with every corch. Also, this was already posted after last season. Along with the Orgeron/Brady - Diaz/Lashlee comparisons. There’s always a few that desperately looks for anything to give them some kind of hope till the very end.
 
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Rellyrell said:
2. Dabo started using the philosophy of quality over quantity in recruiting (same as Butch.) His talent evaluation was fire. Ppl see his first two classes in 2009 & 2010 and the see the rankings of 36th & 27th and be like “omg, those were horrible classes.” They were 36th & 27th b/c they were small classes but they contained gems! Tahj Boyd, D Hopkins, M. Bryant, M. Goodman, D. Robinson, etc. Those classes complimented the misused talent that were recruited under Bowden.
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Yup. And I'll also add that Clemson probably does the best job of recruiting to culture, very little attrition. I remember reading an article the year Clemson won the Natty with Watson. Forget what year it was, but the article compared one of Clemson's 15'ish ranked classes, to Richt's #1 class with Gurley I think it was. Years later, Richt either lost half, or more than half of that class due to attrition, while Clemson only lost like 1 player, and the rest of the recruits made up the core of that Championship team.
 
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don't know if the years align, but the Bama years they didn't have a great QB, i bet they had the two heisman RB's..
 
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