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Perspective on going from competitive to Elite: Clemson's Rise to Dominance

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DMoney said:
I don't really agree with this. Shannon had great assistants. Stoutland, McGriff, Pannunzio, Richardson and Walton all went to the NFL. He just picked bad OCs and was too passive in everything he did. I don't know if Manny is a better coach, but I will say he is quicker to adjust than Shannon.
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SHANNON TRIED TO ADJUST, BUT HE DID NOT HAVE THE SAME RESOURCES AS GOLDEN.
 
Allabouttheu95 said:
What I mean when I say get rid of baker is manny hire someone that runs an entire different scheme and let him focus on being a HC. Gut the entire staff unless new coordinator wants to keep a coach or two
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The only way that happens is a complete and utter collapse in second half of season due to defense.. We play some good running teams and our run defense is whatever so anything is possible.. But like mentioned last year for manny to give up on enos he had to be disgustingly bad, if it was mediocre crap he would probably still be here. I think for Manny to look in mirror at his OWN scheme and toss it would take even more, to bring someone else in and run another system he would probably need multiple BYU vs Texas games.. Manny might be flexible but he bites back when his defense is questioned, getting rid of baker does nothing because its Manny running the show. Manny would have to fire himself and his baby. Good luck with that
 
Allabouttheu95 said:
What I mean when I say get rid of baker is manny hire someone that runs an entire different scheme and let him focus on being a HC. Gut the entire staff unless new coordinator wants to keep a coach or two
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HERE is the rub. Manny has self-preservation instincts and ambition (money and success). Why would he hire someone that appears to be inadequate (4 and a mile v. UNC and many other instances like Pitt and UVA last week)? It is control. He wants to remain somewhat in control of the defense and that might cost him his job. It would be the equivalent of Golden holding on to D'Onofrio. If he truly wants to succeed, he needs to let go entirely and that means hiring a competent, aggressive DC (and firing everyone except Banda because he can recruit and maybe even him).
 
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Nice post. Offers some perspective for some around here but the reality is this is nothing new. You've always had to have good/great qb play to win a title.

It all starts at the top with a HC ability to bring in a good/great QB, surrounded by good great players coached bt good/great coaches. Until Miami hits this on every level then they will struggle.

You want an example go look back at Miami's national title teams and title contending teams. Good/great qb plays, surrounded by good/great talent coached by good/great coaches. Coker might be the only exception somewhat but the credit goes to butch Davis pretty much and if you look at his staff etch its the same story.

You don't really need an NFL caliber qb per say, just a QB who is a good/great college player. Like a Gino torrenta or ken Dorsey.

I'd also like to add that you will never win a title without NFL talent on the roster. Some people seem to believe you don't need NFL talent but the truth is you do. Used to argue with people on grassy about this.

Miami doesn't need to look at Clemson as a model just dip into the past. The problem now is the administration and the AD are POS. They need to get on board and get serious. They rolled the dice on Diaz due to ineptness and laziness but hey, maybe he'll develop into s top notch guy. He has a ways to go for sure starting with his inability to pay attention to detail. I know it sounds minor but I'm concerned about who he has in the press box. Its like he doesn't give a dam about the set of eyes he has looking down on the field. Both co-dc on the sidelines? Lmao. Meanwhile Clemson had Tony Elliot, who is Polly better than Diaz, in the both when Miami played them. All that chit matters.
 
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Bottom Line: I believe if our beloved Canes can put together 3 straight seasons with around 10 wins, that'll help build up talent in depth, which would cover up most coaching deficiencies.
 
Kn[]_[]ckles3o5 said:
Side note: Recruiting at Clemson had not been bad prior to Dabo although the 2009 and 2010 classes were fairly poor 36th and 27th. Still, to this point Clemson was a top 10-15 recruiting team and would remain as such for the foreseeable future. The 2020 class was the first top 5 class under Dabo. Clemson has had just four top 10 recruiting classes under Dabo. 2015 (9th), 2018 (7th), 2019 (10th), and 2020 (3rd)
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This tidbit gets forgotten by a lot of people when this topic is brought up. There's this fake belief that Clemson was this dreg of the ACC that never signed good players until Dabo saved them. It's not the case at all. They were a team known for having good talent and placing guys in the NFL but they were also known underachievers. From 99-08 Tommy Bowden went 76-48 (61%)and finished in the AP top 25 4 times. By comparison, Miami's record under Shannon, Golden and Richt has been a combined 90-63 (58%)with 3 AP top 25 finishes.(two by Mark Richt)
 
Like the old saying goes “Rome wasn’t built in a day.” That’s not to say Manny should have a long leash. But if he continues to improve the wins and losses and makes needed staff adjustments, his leash should get a bit longer.

Continuity in the HC and staff is tantamount to success. The constant coaching carousel due to questionable HC hires by us has been a thorn in our side for years. That’s not to say we should hold onto a HC just for the sake of continuity. As long as we see steady progress from Manny, we should give him enough time to right the ship.
 
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To quote DMoney:

First step is utilizing our current NFL talent in a way that consistently beats inferior conference opponents. Think early Clemson. Second step is building our depth with local talent similar to Charlie Strong-era Louisville. The next step, once we've had some success, is landing the local first rounders that have been going to Alabama and Georgia. The final step is recruiting nationally from a position of power.
 
Kn[]_[]ckles3o5 said:
Dabo Swinney and the Clemson Tiger's have sat atop the ACC since FSU's post-Jameis/Jimbo swoon began.

Here is how it came to be:

Swinney took over a 7-6 squad in 2009 and produced a competitive team that went 9-5 and played for the ACC championship losing to GT for the second time that season. Other losses included Maryland , TCU, and South Carolina. Modest improvement considering the previous year.

Side note: Miami was 9-4 that season and narrowly lost to Clemson at home in OT. We also defeated GT handily at home but as usual donked off a couple conference games on the road and finished well behind GT for a shot in the ACCCG

The following year Swinney came out and **** the bed going 6-7 in 2010. I'm sure he was on the hot seat following that season. Miami had a slightly better but similar year and a late season loss to USF cost Randy Shannon his job and Al Golden was brought in along with "The Cloud."

2011 was a step in the right direction for Dabo. His slightly more mature talent was able to muster a respectable 10-4 season. Obviously not good enough by Miami standards but not terrible either for a team trying to get over the hump. What should have been a great season with a big win early against perennial division and conference favorite FSU was spoiled by late season losses to in conference, middling teams GT, NC ST, and rival South Carolina. The season crash landed with an embarrassing bowl stomping by West Virginia, this was the birth of "Clemsoning" and were Dabo the coach at Miami he may well have been canned.

2012 was a season in which Clemson became a threat to the power that was FSU at the time. The first recruiting classes that Dabo had pieced together had matured into a very competitive and confident squad. Clemson lost two games that season to quality teams in FSU and South Carolina, both finished the season ranked. Clemson capped off a good year by defeating LSU in the Chik Fil A bowl by 1 pt 25-24, finishing 11-2 in year 4.

Side note: Recruiting at Clemson had not been bad prior to Dabo although the 2009 and 2010 classes were fairly poor 36th and 27th. Still, to this point Clemson was a top 10-15 recruiting team and would remain as such for the foreseeable future. The 2020 class was the first top 5 class under Dabo. Clemson has had just four top 10 recruiting classes under Dabo. 2015 (9th), 2018 (7th), 2019 (10th), and 2020 (3rd)

2013 was a mirror of 2012. Two losses to their biggest rivals. One a thrashing by Florida State at home 51-13 (in year 5 of Dabo's tenure) and the other loss to South Carolina, again, at the end of the season on the road. They managed an impressive bowl victory against OSU in the Orange Bowl to somewhat salvage the season and finish 11-2.

Clemson took a slight step back in 2014 losing to every ranked team they played during the regular season. A big win against Oklahoma capped an otherwise pedestrian year to go 10-3. It is worth noting a TF Deshaun Watson played but was not a starter and did not play in the bowl game against Oklahoma.

In 2015 Deshaun Watson took over as starting QB for Clemson and took them all the way to the National Championship game losing in a barn burner to Alabama. The following season Watson and Clemson won the title. The National Championship win removed the "Clemsoning" monkey from Dabo's back and solidified his reputation as an elite coach in CFB. They have dominated the ACC ever since and have been in the National Title game 5 straight seasons, going 2-3 in that span.

To be honest Clemson didn't achieve much of anything until they hit on a QB eval in Watson, they were lucky to follow that up with another elite NFL level QB in Lawrence. In fact the past 10 or so champions had 1st round talent at the QB position. Only Alabama has managed to win a National Title with mediocre QB play by having an oppressive defense and ridiculous O line and running game. We probably will never recruit in the trenches at a level that will allow us to dominate regardless of our air game and even Alabama has begun to transition away from that style as the game becomes more open and defense becomes more difficult to play. The key to winning a national title in today's landscape is to build a solid team on both sides of the ball and then hit on a QB eval. We will likely continue to come up short until we hit on a QB with 1st round talent. The key is for us to hang around that 10-2/11-1 range and recruit in the top 10 or so to stay well stocked for when the time comes that we hit on a QB.

All this to say that the road to dominance requires patience and some luck. Even if we stumble down the stretch this year that does not mean all hope is lost. Manny has proven that he can field a competitive defense even when he doesn't have great players at every level. That defense can be dominant when he has the right talent. It appears he is recruiting that type of talent right now. The jury is still out on the offense but the holes in this current team are evident and the staff is working to fill them. Winning in spite of deficiencies is the mark of a good staff. We may not look great doing it right now but it takes time to build a program that can dominate decent football teams week in and week out.
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You know how many 7-9 teams are still 7-9 a decade later? Most. Cherry picking the one in a million shot team that does what Clemson did is like winning the lottery. Hardly a story of hope.

“so what are the chances of a girl like you and a guy like me...”
“About 1 in a million Lloyd.”
“So your saying there’s a chance!”
 
LoungeLord said:
You know how many 7-9 teams are still 7-9 a decade later? Most. Cherry picking the one in a million shot team that does what Clemson did is like winning the lottery. Hardly a story of hope.

“so what are the chances of a girl like you and a guy like me...”
“About 1 in a million Lloyd.”
“So your saying there’s a chance!”
Click to expand...

How many of those 7-9 teams have been and still consistently recruit top 25 classes, has more active players in the NFL than Clemson and has 5 national titles?
 
Diaz is not the guy.

Starts players based on seniority.

He's a defensive coach. He doesn't even know what the offense is doing at practice. How can a head coach not have a clue about half his team.

5th season in his defense and we continue to rely on 1-year transfers to start year after year. This means they aren't evaluating players at all much less coaching them.

Hes a gimmicky guy. Doing what appears to be cool or hip. Chains. Dancing. Cigars. Winning the offseason.

Celebrates Wiggins lack of fighting for the ball and drawing a flag.

He's a loser.

Hires his friends to coach the defense while he supervises to ensure its his scheme.

Complained about changing the culture and we still have the WR room admitting to not caring or giving full effort. Continues to start players who don't care.
 
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Dabo would be fired by now if it wasn’t for one player.
 

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Siiiiiigh:

I feel like every season, we’re given these types of OPs to give hope:
-Golden compared to Butch’s first 4 yr
-Richt compared to Jimmy Johnson
-Now Manny compared to Dabo

Context is everything w/ Clemson’s rise:

1. It started with the 2009 class. The class of ‘09 was the 36th ranked class, but it had a very, Very important recruit....it was the #3 and 5 star QB Tahj Boyd. Once Tahj developed, which was around his Sophomore yr, Dabo won no less than 10 games/yr. (That happened in yr 2 1/2 of his HC tenure)

2. Dabo started using the philosophy of quality over quantity in recruiting (same as Butch.) His talent evaluation was fire. Ppl see his first two classes in 2009 & 2010 and the see the rankings of 36th & 27th and be like “omg, those were horrible classes.” They were 36th & 27th b/c they were small classes but they contained gems! Tahj Boyd, D Hopkins, M. Bryant, M. Goodman, D. Robinson, etc. Those classes complimented the misused talent that were recruited under Bowden.

3. After the embarrassing losses in 2011, and the shear amount of points given up in those games, Dabo hired one of the best DCs/LB coaches in the nation, the same guy we passed on as a HC, in Brent V. That hire paid immediate dividends.

4. Being that Dabo played WR, he knew how important the QB evaluation is, and from Tahj to DJ Uiagalelei, Dabo has hit the mark on thee most important position in football.

5. The boosters rallied around Dabo, and so did the administration. The school was investing in itself. Brent was broke off $1m to come coach, and whatever Brent needed on his side of the ball, he got w/o any ?’s. There was no penny pinching or duck tape process.


Now; let’s talk about Manny. I will give Manny credit for immediately changing the OC, But he also wasted $1m by hiring & waited to hire said OC. OK; no worries....new offensive staff brought in & hopefully some positive continuity can be established.

Let’s talk about our QB room. We are already talking about going to the portal for next season if King foolishly leaves. That’s a problem. Furthermore, we had to get King b/c our QB room was f’d up. That’s a problem. King is a fringe P5 QB that will give you some good games (see UVA) & some not so good games (see Clemson, Pitt). That’s a problem.

Let’s talk about our evals; or “possibly” lack thereof. Our classes have looked good on paper, but the guys are not living up and/or “potentially” coached up to their rankings. Is that coaching or bad evals? Furthermore, attrition is decimating us. Can’t field a competent team, when guys are leaving at an alarming pace. Either way Clemson has been kicking our *** in these depts and that started happening a while ago.

Boosters. How committed are our boosters to this school when they talk about E before W? We’ve sprayed champagne on ourselves for the IPF, while Clemson was completely remodeling their ENTIRE athletic facilities.

Here’s my point; it is absolutely foolish to compare Manny to Dabo. Miami is not Clemson & Clemson is not Miami. Until we get the QB room legit, until we get our evals right, until Manny stop thinking that scraping by **** poor teams who we are vastly superior than, is a means to celebrate like a child, until we get our recruiting in order at the two most important positions in football now (QB, and CB), then we are not going to see growth both on & off the field.

***And as a side note, can we further explain that 2010 season in which Dabo went 6-7
-The 7 teams he lost to had a combined record of 63-31 including the eventual Nat’l Champs & all teams had a winning record.

-We went 6-7 against a combined opponents record of 50-39 that included 3 teams with sub .500 records***

Not trying to break balls, but it really feels like groundhogs day around here. Clemson & Dabo is a **** poor example for us, UNLESS we see meteoric changes in the QB room & CB room & thus far that just don’t look the part.
 
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I put this in another thread. How long would it take Dani to win a championship if there was no Deshaun Watson? If TVD isn’t the goods, Manny is finished.
 
kyle_schick said:
Diaz is not the guy.

Starts players based on seniority.

He's a defensive coach. He doesn't even know what the offense is doing at practice. How can a head coach not have a clue about half his team.

5th season in his defense and we continue to rely on 1-year transfers to start year after year. This means they aren't evaluating players at all much less coaching them.

Hes a gimmicky guy. Doing what appears to be cool or hip. Chains. Dancing. Cigars. Winning the offseason.

Celebrates Wiggins lack of fighting for the ball and drawing a flag.

He's a loser.

Hires his friends to coach the defense while he supervises to ensure its his scheme.

Complained about changing the culture and we still have the WR room admitting to not caring or giving full effort. Continues to start players who don't care.
Click to expand...

We’re 5-1 dude.
 
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