Perspective on going from competitive to Elite: Clemson's Rise to Dominance

[Rellyrell]

But what other program does this? It’s a very uncommon thing to bring in another Qb for reps in game matter of fact I’m not even sure if Clemson does this in other games besides when they played us...most of the time they are blowing teams out so they can let the backups play

See UVA. Lol.

 

[joseermonfils]

See UVA. Lol.

Lol that’s a bad example to follow..

 

[Fightinibis]

I really believe manny succeeding comes down to one thing.... parting ways with his “protege” Baker. If Manny does this we all will agree he is absolutely committed to winning here. If he doesn’t and he lets this drag out I know all I need to know about him. That step, whether he takes it or not will determine his success as a head coach here imo. If he does do it, we can start making the correlations between him and Dabo. The major difference between him and Dabo right now is that Manny hired too many of his friends. We will see...

Not sure why he went with him in the first place.

If he is the kind of guy that "gets it"...ego needs to be shoved aside and he needs to be willing to bring in a DC that...oh my God, might be better than he is......

 

[TruCane81]

I know people will get mad at me for this. Maybe we moved to soon on Randy. He and Dabo were on the same path. The only difference is CLEMSON gave Dabo what he needed to succeed. Instead Miami was swindled by Golden. Gave him everything he needed financially and an extension. Randy’s recruiting wasnt bad at all. He was getting a few players, but never had the backing of the department. I’m not saying he was a great coach, but when the higher ups don’t give you what you need to succeed. Your doomed to fail from the start. That goes back to THE ADMIN/ATHLETIC DEPT not really giving a F about football. So if Manny doesn’t succeed. We’re right back where we were after firing Coker. That will be 3 New head coaches since 2000. Is there another POWER 5 CHAMPIONSHIP winner going through this?**** NO. Miami needs to get it the F together and find their guy if Manny doesn’t make
It. Best case scenario is Manny evolves into something spectacular or something we can believe that can get us there. Another bad hire sets us back exponentially.

I don't really agree with this. Shannon had great assistants. Stoutland, McGriff, Pannunzio, Richardson and Walton all went to the NFL. He just picked bad OCs and was too passive in everything he did. I don't know if Manny is a better coach, but I will say he is quicker to adjust than Shannon.

Them offensive coordinators doh

 

[Canesfan3234]

Clemson is a terrible comp for a bunch of reasons. Clemson are the 80s canes without the off the field issues. Any advantage they can find, they exploit it.

Ask Fields about the Jamie Harper recruitment. I was in his office when Harper texted him the pic of the canes jersey he was going to wear on NSD to announce his decision. 24 hours later he was a tiger. Not ly did they break him off, Tommy Bowden threatened to drop his boy that was a low end 3* if they didn’t come as a package. That program is one of the dirtiest in CFB both with the bags the got and how low they will stoop to get what they want. The only difference between Clemson and ole miss is that Dabo was smart enough to build slow. He went around the country snapping up a ton of lower tier 4*s who wanted the bag that were enough to get them relevant in the ACC every year while staying off the NCAAs radar. Then once they got on the national stage, grabbing a 5* or 2 wasn’t that surprising. Now they are a machine and signing a bunch of blue chippers is expected.

the other big difference is their strength and conditioning program turns kids into mutants overnight. I remember watching Clemson get off the bus for that game in 2009. To a man, they looked like men getting ready to play against a pop Warner team. Even the **** freshman who had only been there a few months were jacked. I’m not saying they cheating because I’ve got no first hand knowledge, but there were quite a few stories told by our medical staff at the time that the juice flows freely at Clemson.

btw **** Alex uribe for kicking to CJ spiller at the end of the first half. He was told to squib it to the 35 yd line and instead kicked it deep because he wanted to prove he can put it through the end zone. That was his last kick ever for UM.

 

[Canesfan3234]

I don't really agree with this. Shannon had great assistants. Stoutland, McGriff, Pannunzio, Richardson and Walton all went to the NFL. He just picked bad OCs and was too passive in everything he did. I don't know if Manny is a better coach, but I will say he is quicker to adjust than Shannon.

Stoutland is an amazing coach and an amazing guy. On slow days he’d let me watch film on recruits with him and teach me to evaluate them. He sucked at recruiting though. Didn’t do his research on kids at all and was bad at building relationships while the kids were still in HS. Ex. Brandon Linder. Stout told OV host that Linder was a gamer and would want to stay in all weekend playing NCAA. Well Linder showed up and host had the dorm set with ncaa, madden, etc. Turns out Linder hates gaming and doesn’t even own a system. He’s a redneck through and throuh. Host called an audible and took him charter fishing the next day and sealed the deal. Stouts a great coach, but belongs in the NFL or at a program like Bama where the bags do the job for him.

crime dog was great all around. One of the best teachers my 4 years there.

Panunzio is one of the nicest guys you will meet. He’s a straight bag man though. Can’t coach his way out of a paper bag. he ran the same basic drills every instructional period without fail.

Did come up with a really fun trick FG play called “Fiesta” that Randy never had the guts to call. Basically was a play where while bosher, the holder, and the long snapper ran onto the field, the OL and QB turned around and lined up on the ball, bosher and the holder lined up at WR, the long snapper at LT, And the QB hiked the ball as quick as possible. If executed correctly, the QB would throw to a wide open bosher because the D never had time to line up. Worst case scenario, you draw an offside or too many men penalty on the defense. They had it down to a science. Could get the play off in 15 seconds or less every time.

Randy is a solid guy who knew how the CEO of a program should look and act. He knew everyone in the Hecht’s name. I was just a video assistant and he knew exactly who I was. He actually does remind me of Dabo. Has the face of innocence in public but is a dog behind closed doors. Problem is that he couldn’t actually do the job and was a dog in all the wrong ways. Extremely disorganized, wrong priorities, and zero attention to detail. Ex of a wrong priority. He started practice at 5 am because he thought it would keep kids out of trouble. Instead of doing that, the players would be out all night because nobody wants to go to sleep at 8:30pm, go to practice, sleep through classes, sleep through study hall, go to sleep and do it again. Another thing that drove me crazy. Practice could be a complete disaster. Starters getting outplayed by scout team level disaster and he won’t say a word. Some random staffer or reporter shows up to practice wearing anything with another school’s logo on it, and he’d spend 5+ minutes yelling at you. He yelled at a staffer for wearing a hoody from a small college in the north east on a freezing November morning, but completely ignore that practice is a mess because whipple is fighting with someone again and calling idiotic plays to prove a point.

randy was loyal to a fault to all the wrong people. He deluded himself into thinking it was possible to run a squeaky clean program and win. Shockingly, it blew up in his face.

 

[rsa coral gables]

Stoutland is an amazing coach and an amazing guy. On slow days he’d let me watch film on recruits with him and teach me to evaluate them. He sucked at recruiting though. Didn’t do his research on kids at all and was bad at building relationships while the kids were still in HS. Ex. Brandon Linder. Stout told OV host that Linder was a gamer and would want to stay in all weekend playing NCAA. Well Linder showed up and host had the dorm set with ncaa, madden, etc. Turns out Linder hates gaming and doesn’t even own a system. He’s a redneck through and throuh. Host called an audible and took him charter fishing the next day and sealed the deal. Stouts a great coach, but belongs in the NFL or at a program like Bama where the bags do the job for him.

crime dog was great all around. One of the best teachers my 4 years there.

Panunzio is one of the nicest guys you will meet. He’s a straight bag man though. Can’t coach his way out of a paper bag. he ran the same basic drills every instructional period without fail.

Did come up with a really fun trick FG play called “Fiesta” that Randy never had the guts to call. Basically was a play where while bosher, the holder, and the long snapper ran onto the field, the OL and QB turned around and lined up on the ball, bosher and the holder lined up at WR, the long snapper at LT, And the QB hiked the ball as quick as possible. If executed correctly, the QB would throw to a wide open bosher because the D never had time to line up. Worst case scenario, you draw an offside or too many men penalty on the defense. They had it down to a science. Could get the play off in 15 seconds or less every time.

Randy is a solid guy who knew how the CEO of a program should look and act. He knew everyone in the Hecht’s name. I was just a video assistant and he knew exactly who I was. He actually does remind me of Dabo. Has the face of innocence in public but is a dog behind closed doors. Problem is that he couldn’t actually do the job and was a dog in all the wrong ways. Extremely disorganized, wrong priorities, and zero attention to detail. Ex of a wrong priority. He started practice at 5 am because he thought it would keep kids out of trouble. Instead of doing that, the players would be out all night because nobody wants to go to sleep at 8:30pm, go to practice, sleep through classes, sleep through study hall, go to sleep and do it again. Another thing that drove me crazy. Practice could be a complete disaster. Starters getting outplayed by scout team level disaster and he won’t say a word. Some random staffer or reporter shows up to practice wearing anything with another school’s logo on it, and he’d spend 5+ minutes yelling at you. He yelled at a staffer for wearing a hoody from a small college in the north east on a freezing November morning, but completely ignore that practice is a mess because whipple is fighting with someone again and calling idiotic plays to prove a point.

randy was loyal to a fault to all the wrong people. He deluded himself into thinking it was possible to run a squeaky clean program and win. Shockingly, it blew up in his face.

keep going

 

[Canesfan3234]

keep going

We will go with a fun one since the others were more morbid. I'm sure I've told this story before, but it's easily my favorite from my 4 years at UM.

During the dog days of 5 am practices, one of the other video guys and I would help Panunzio with his wake up drills. It was a simple drill where he'd throw the ball to the TE, turn and run through the blocking pads me and the other guy were holding. The point was to wake the guys up so we were supposed to stand about 3 yards a part, take a step in and lightly hit the players as they ran between us. Other video guy was feeling himself that morning and decided he was going to put his shoulder behind it that morning. We go through a full rotation and its obvious that Jimmy Graham didn't appreciate a full shoulder to the chest at 5:05 am. So his next turn through, he catches the ball, dips his shoulder, accelerates, and goes straight through the other guy and sends him flying 10 yards away. I'm talking cartoon level flying with cartwheels and rolling a full 10 yards. The entire practice stops and erupts into laughter.

I hated those **** 5 am practices.

 

[rsa coral gables]

We will go with a fun one since the others were more morbid. I'm sure I've told this story before, but it's easily my favorite from my 4 years at UM.

During the dog days of 5 am practices, one of the other video guys and I would help Panunzio with his wake up drills. It was a simple drill where he'd throw the ball to the TE, turn and run through the blocking pads me and the other guy were holding. The point was to wake the guys up so we were supposed to stand about 3 yards a part, take a step in and lightly hit the players as they ran between us. Other video guy was feeling himself that morning and decided he was going to put his shoulder behind it that morning. We go through a full rotation and its obvious that Jimmy Graham didn't appreciate a full shoulder to the chest at 5:05 am. So his next turn through, he catches the ball, dips his shoulder, accelerates, and goes straight through the other guy and sends him flying 10 yards away. I'm talking cartoon level flying with cartwheels and rolling a full 10 yards. The entire practice stops and erupts into laughter.

I hated those **** 5 am practices.

ROTFLMAO. keep going por favor.

 

[Hurracanes]

We will go with a fun one since the others were more morbid. I'm sure I've told this story before, but it's easily my favorite from my 4 years at UM.

During the dog days of 5 am practices, one of the other video guys and I would help Panunzio with his wake up drills. It was a simple drill where he'd throw the ball to the TE, turn and run through the blocking pads me and the other guy were holding. The point was to wake the guys up so we were supposed to stand about 3 yards a part, take a step in and lightly hit the players as they ran between us. Other video guy was feeling himself that morning and decided he was going to put his shoulder behind it that morning. We go through a full rotation and its obvious that Jimmy Graham didn't appreciate a full shoulder to the chest at 5:05 am. So his next turn through, he catches the ball, dips his shoulder, accelerates, and goes straight through the other guy and sends him flying 10 yards away. I'm talking cartoon level flying with cartwheels and rolling a full 10 yards. The entire practice stops and erupts into laughter.

I hated those **** 5 am practices.

 

[Canezum5]

Its manny system, he has made multiple references to last few weeks that he is on defensive field majority of time to point he doesnt even know whats going on with offense til after practice and talking to offensive coaches.. Manny has his fingerprints all over this defense, these our his recruited players for his scheme

Yeah but he's not making the defensive calls and having a GameDay chess match with the opposing OC which is the point being made here

 

[Canesfan3234]

ROTFLMAO. keep going por favor.

Let's jump to the end of the Randy Shannon era for a couple quick stories.

First, after that loss to USF, everyone in the building knew it was over. We hadn't even finished packing our gear in the stadium when my boss grabbed me and said, "this next week is going to be one of the worst you will experience while here. What's about to happen is the best thing for the program, but a lot of good people are going to lose jobs. Remember that as this week plays out."

He wasn't wrong. It was weird to see a fanbase celebrate as friends packed their offices.

Now lets talk about the bowl game.

Stoutland did an amazing job rallying the few guys he had left that gave a **** to play hard, but so many guys had checked out when the season didn't go as planned. (I talked earlier that Shannon had the right mindset, but horrible execution. Expectations were a bit part of that. He knew to set goals high, but no idea how to keep guys focused when competing for a Title was a pipe dream.) But Whipple was unbelievably butthurt that he wasn't named interim coach. He fought non-stop with everyone during bowl prep and staged what can only be described as a mutiny on game day. I was on coach coms and Whipple had every other coach ****ed off at him the entire game. We had three hurry up plays that he would call with one word and the whole team knew exactly what to do. His favorite was "NASCAR". I don't remember it exactly, but from what I remember, the TE would run into the flat, RB would run a middle screen, one WR ran a skinny post, and I can't remember what the other WR did. ND had it scouted perfectly. I mean so perfect that I'm 100% sure they even knew the name of the play. First time we ran it, ND had everything covered and baited the Skinny post. Jacory threw it down the middle and had it picked off.

Next drive, called it again, they ran the same coverage, baited the skinny post, Jacory doesn't have the arm to fit it in, INT.

3rd time, Another INT. 4th time I believe ended up in a sack. After the first two times, the word NASCAR out of Whipple's mouth led to pretty much the entire coaching staff throwing a fit. I was on coach coms that game and I would switch over to defense and they would all be melting down. They were convinced that Whipple was calling **** plays on purpose. I don't blame them.

Post Golden-pre Randy

From being on the "inside" the Gruden stuff was very real. The whole "players have been notified" thing really happened. I remember Laron Byrd getting a text message in our sports psychology class, and immediately looking at me and saying "You won't believe this ****" 5 min later the infamous tweet went out.

What happened next, I never found out then we got Golden who really killed that opening press conference. He had the entire hecht ready to run through a wall.

 

[rsa coral gables]

go one.

 

[flyguy]

also dabos staff dosnt leave when a shiney new stack of bills show up.

 

[Kn[]_[]ckles3o5]

Clemson is a terrible comp for a bunch of reasons. Clemson are the 80s canes without the off the field issues. Any advantage they can find, they exploit it.

Ask Fields about the Jamie Harper recruitment. I was in his office when Harper texted him the pic of the canes jersey he was going to wear on NSD to announce his decision. 24 hours later he was a tiger. Not ly did they break him off, Tommy Bowden threatened to drop his boy that was a low end 3* if they didn’t come as a package. That program is one of the dirtiest in CFB both with the bags the got and how low they will stoop to get what they want. The only difference between Clemson and ole miss is that Dabo was smart enough to build slow. He went around the country snapping up a ton of lower tier 4*s who wanted the bag that were enough to get them relevant in the ACC every year while staying off the NCAAs radar. Then once they got on the national stage, grabbing a 5* or 2 wasn’t that surprising. Now they are a machine and signing a bunch of blue chippers is expected.

the other big difference is their strength and conditioning program turns kids into mutants overnight. I remember watching Clemson get off the bus for that game in 2009. To a man, they looked like men getting ready to play against a pop Warner team. Even the **** freshman who had only been there a few months were jacked. I’m not saying they cheating because I’ve got no first hand knowledge, but there were quite a few stories told by our medical staff at the time that the juice flows freely at Clemson.

btw **** Alex uribe for kicking to CJ spiller at the end of the first half. He was told to squib it to the 35 yd line and instead kicked it deep because he wanted to prove he can put it through the end zone. That was his last kick ever for UM.

The point of the post wasn't necessarily to demonstrate how we should try to build this program back up.

I was merely trying to show that Clemson didn't just magically snap their fingers and become a national recruiting powerhouse competing for championships every season. Their road to the top was far from linear and had some major setbacks and baffling performances well into Dabo's tenure.

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

Did Dabo ever lose to FIU, La Tech or a 2 win GT team transitioning from a triple option offense?

The two coaches aren't comparable at this point. Yes Manny needs time and it's premature to kick him out the door so far, but last season was quite literally one of the more embarrassing ones in the history of the team's football program

 

[GojiraCane]

The point of the post wasn't necessarily to demonstrate how we should try to build this program back up.

I was merely trying to show that Clemson didn't just magically snap their fingers and become a national recruiting powerhouse competing for championships every season. Their road to the top was far from linear and had some major setbacks and baffling performances well into Dabo's tenure.

Another question that I have not seen asked...would Clemson be where they are today if they hired a different coach not named Saban or Meyer in 2013 after they were embarrassingly blow out at home by FSU? Maybe. Or maybe the disruption caused by a new regime sets them back years.

 

[SinisterCane]

Dabo Swinney and the Clemson Tiger's have sat atop the ACC since FSU's post-Jameis/Jimbo swoon began.

Here is how it came to be:

Swinney took over a 7-6 squad in 2009 and produced a competitive team that went 9-5 and played for the ACC championship losing to GT for the second time that season. Other losses included Maryland , TCU, and South Carolina. Modest improvement considering the previous year.

Side note: Miami was 9-4 that season and narrowly lost to Clemson at home in OT. We also defeated GT handily at home but as usual donked off a couple conference games on the road and finished well behind GT for a shot in the ACCCG

The following year Swinney came out and **** the bed going 6-7 in 2010. I'm sure he was on the hot seat following that season. Miami had a slightly better but similar year and a late season loss to USF cost Randy Shannon his job and Al Golden was brought in along with "The Cloud."

2011 was a step in the right direction for Dabo. His slightly more mature talent was able to muster a respectable 10-4 season. Obviously not good enough by Miami standards but not terrible either for a team trying to get over the hump. What should have been a great season with a big win early against perennial division and conference favorite FSU was spoiled by late season losses to in conference, middling teams GT, NC ST, and rival South Carolina. The season crash landed with an embarrassing bowl stomping by West Virginia, this was the birth of "Clemsoning" and were Dabo the coach at Miami he may well have been canned.

2012 was a season in which Clemson became a threat to the power that was FSU at the time. The first recruiting classes that Dabo had pieced together had matured into a very competitive and confident squad. Clemson lost two games that season to quality teams in FSU and South Carolina, both finished the season ranked. Clemson capped off a good year by defeating LSU in the Chik Fil A bowl by 1 pt 25-24, finishing 11-2 in year 4.

Side note: Recruiting at Clemson had not been bad prior to Dabo although the 2009 and 2010 classes were fairly poor 36th and 27th. Still, to this point Clemson was a top 10-15 recruiting team and would remain as such for the foreseeable future. The 2020 class was the first top 5 class under Dabo. Clemson has had just four top 10 recruiting classes under Dabo. 2015 (9th), 2018 (7th), 2019 (10th), and 2020 (3rd)

2013 was a mirror of 2012. Two losses to their biggest rivals. One a thrashing by Florida State at home 51-13 (in year 5 of Dabo's tenure) and the other loss to South Carolina, again, at the end of the season on the road. They managed an impressive bowl victory against OSU in the Orange Bowl to somewhat salvage the season and finish 11-2.

Clemson took a slight step back in 2014 losing to every ranked team they played during the regular season. A big win against Oklahoma capped an otherwise pedestrian year to go 10-3. It is worth noting a TF Deshaun Watson played but was not a starter and did not play in the bowl game against Oklahoma.

In 2015 Deshaun Watson took over as starting QB for Clemson and took them all the way to the National Championship game losing in a barn burner to Alabama. The following season Watson and Clemson won the title. The National Championship win removed the "Clemsoning" monkey from Dabo's back and solidified his reputation as an elite coach in CFB. They have dominated the ACC ever since and have been in the National Title game 5 straight seasons, going 2-3 in that span.

To be honest Clemson didn't achieve much of anything until they hit on a QB eval in Watson, they were lucky to follow that up with another elite NFL level QB in Lawrence. In fact the past 10 or so champions had 1st round talent at the QB position. Only Alabama has managed to win a National Title with mediocre QB play by having an oppressive defense and ridiculous O line and running game. We probably will never recruit in the trenches at a level that will allow us to dominate regardless of our air game and even Alabama has begun to transition away from that style as the game becomes more open and defense becomes more difficult to play. The key to winning a national title in today's landscape is to build a solid team on both sides of the ball and then hit on a QB eval. We will likely continue to come up short until we hit on a QB with 1st round talent. The key is for us to hang around that 10-2/11-1 range and recruit in the top 10 or so to stay well stocked for when the time comes that we hit on a QB.

All this to say that the road to dominance requires patience and some luck. Even if we stumble down the stretch this year that does not mean all hope is lost. Manny has proven that he can field a competitive defense even when he doesn't have great players at every level. That defense can be dominant when he has the right talent. It appears he is recruiting that type of talent right now. The jury is still out on the offense but the holes in this current team are evident and the staff is working to fill them. Winning in spite of deficiencies is the mark of a good staff. We may not look great doing it right now but it takes time to build a program that can dominate decent football teams week in and week out.

Sounds like a Op-ed for giving Manny more time

 

[SinisterCane]

I really believe manny succeeding comes down to one thing.... parting ways with his “protege” Baker. If Manny does this we all will agree he is absolutely committed to winning here. If he doesn’t and he lets this drag out I know all I need to know about him. That step, whether he takes it or not will determine his success as a head coach here imo. If he does do it, we can start making the correlations between him and Dabo. The major difference between him and Dabo right now is that Manny hired too many of his friends. We will see...

What if a new DC wants his own staff, will Mandy cut loose Banda?

 

[Kn[]_[]ckles3o5]

Did Dabo ever lose to FIU, La Tech or a 2 win GT team transitioning from a triple option offense?

The two coaches aren't comparable at this point. Yes Manny needs time and it's premature to kick him out the door so far, but last season was quite literally one of the more embarrassing ones in the history of the team's football program

He lost to USF and Skip Holtz in the Meineke Care Care Bowl in his second season after going 6-6. He was 9-4 the previous season.