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OT: Was Kobe the most competitive player in league history?

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The Guitar Dude said:
Kobe is definitely one of the most competitive athletes/people ever but we are arguing something that is immeasurable. I love Some of the old school basketball players and think MJ is also the best or one of the best ever but with all due respect the competition at that time (aside from the Birds or Magic’s) was not on the same level of competition that Kobe or LeBron have played against. Simply put athletes now are bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic. I’m not saying that makes Kobe better I’m just saying it’s something to consider. As people get older they have a hard time accepting that who or what they thought was the best can be surpassed. (Like people who genuinely believe that in his prime Mike Tyson wouldn’t beat a Muhammad Ali or that some 70’s/ 80’s football team would somehow not get stomped by a modern day one) we should stop calling people the best ever and just accept that they were the best of their time/era. I’m so grateful to have watched him play and have been a lifelong laker fan. He was most certainly more than just special. He was amazing and his haters can suck a fat one.

2 of the GOATSView attachment 110519
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One GOAT

And one top 15-20 player of all time
 
HarryCarayisGoat said:
I don’t recall Kobe being loved this much when he was alive. And I did like Kobe a lot but all this hype is nuts.
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Very hard to dislike the man he grew into and we all saw it. I hated Kobe as a player but always respected him and grew to admire him the last 2 years of his career. But here is why people loved the guy over the past 5 years, including me. He became incredibly graceful his last two seasons of the NBA, and even more so in retirement.

And accomplishments are just off the charts, and this is why he’s loved (his off the court accomplishments were well on its way to matching what he did on the court)

Top 2-3 basketball player of all time

Net worth: $600 million

Won an Oscar within 2 years of retiring - it takes people 30-40-50-60 Years of disciplined training to achieve this yet he did it in only TWO

New York Times best selling author of children books within 3 years of retiring (Also nuts). Again, this takes some decades of disciplined writing but he did it in 3. Was also in the process of co-writing a book with the great Paulo Coelo - author of the Alchemist. Both of these are mind blowing to me.

We can stop here if we wanted to and be in total awe, because that would mean he was great and one of the best in the World in THREE career disciplines (hoops, film-making, and writing) but wait there is more!!

Multilingual - spoke 3-4 languages fluently

Became one of the most sought after motivational speakers in the world (Business, universities, coaches all clamores for his services)

Was a GREAT businessman....and he was a big name and great investor in the startup scene. He and Jeff Stibel created a $100M VC fund in 2016 - months after he retired.

Mentored athletes from every sport (tennis, football, men hoops, women’s hoops, soccer, college and pro athletes). He became a kind of sage or philosopher genius to many of his mentees.

Gave 1:1 and group training to G-league players, NBA players, WNBA and men’s and women’s college players

Mentored businessman and women

Ambassador for women’s hoops and was working in partnership with the WNBA

Family man and great dad - you saw his softer side here

Basketball coach for kids and created his own girls AAU team (he coached the **** thing!)

Created Mamba Academy for athletic training (all athletes) and for hosting boys and girls AAU tournaments weekly

Lastly- he was an authentic dude and he never “lost himself” unlike many athletes. Namely, he could role with any group or swimlane with ease. He could roll with and had friendships with businessman/women from any ethnicity, actors, entertainers, professional athletes, media, regular folks AND he has immense street cred/hood respect.
 
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The Svengali said:
Very hard to dislike the man he grew into and we all saw it. I hated Kobe as a player but always respected him and grew to admire him the last 2 years of his career. But here is why people loved the guy over the past 5 years, including me. He became incredibly graceful his last two seasons of the NBA, and even more so in retirement.

And accomplishments are just off the charts, and this is why he’s loved (his off the court accomplishments were well on its way to matching what he did on the court)

Top 2-3 basketball player of all time

Net worth: $600 million

Won an Oscar within 2 years of retiring - it takes people 30-40-50-60 Years of disciplined training to achieve this yet he did it in only TWO

New York Times best selling author of children books within 3 years of retiring (Also nuts). Again, this takes some decades of disciplined writing but he did it in 3. Was also in the process of co-writing a book with the great Paulo Coelo - author of the Alchemist. Both of these are mind blowing to me.

We can stop here if we wanted to and be in total awe, because that would mean he was great and one of the best in the World in THREE career disciplines (hoops, film-making, and writing) but wait there is more!!

Multilingual - spoke 3-4 languages fluently

Became one of the most sought after motivational speakers in the world (Business, universities, coaches all clamores for his services)

Was a GREAT businessman....and he was a big name and great investor in the startup scene. He and Jeff Stibel created a $100M VC fund in 2016 - months after he retired.

Mentored athletes from every sport (tennis, football, men hoops, women’s hoops, soccer, college and pro athletes). He became a kind of sage or philosopher genius to many of his mentees.

Gave 1:1 and group training to G-league players, NBA players, WNBA and men’s and women’s college players

Mentored businessman and women

Ambassador for women’s hoops and was working in partnership with the WNBA

Family man and great dad - you saw his softer side here

Basketball coach for kids and created his own girls AAU team (he coached the **** thing!)

Created Mamba Academy for athletic training (all athletes) and for hosting boys and girls AAU tournaments weekly

Lastly- he was an authentic dude and he never “lost himself” unlike many athletes. Namely, he could role with any group or swimlane with ease. He could roll with and had friendships with businessman/women from any ethnicity, actors, entertainers, professional athletes, media, regular folks AND he has immense street cred/hood respect.
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Appreciate the insight. Really hadn’t heard of any of this besides the Oscar. Guess. The media only likes to play the negative **** about athletes
 
The Svengali said:
Very hard to dislike the man he grew into and we all saw it. I hated Kobe as a player but always respected him and grew to admire him the last 2 years of his career. But here is why people loved the guy over the past 5 years, including me. He became incredibly graceful his last two seasons of the NBA, and even more so in retirement.

And accomplishments are just off the charts, and this is why he’s loved (his off the court accomplishments were well on its way to matching what he did on the court)

Top 2-3 basketball player of all time

Net worth: $600 million

Won an Oscar within 2 years of retiring - it takes people 30-40-50-60 Years of disciplined training to achieve this yet he did it in only TWO

New York Times best selling author of children books within 3 years of retiring (Also nuts). Again, this takes some decades of disciplined writing but he did it in 3. Was also in the process of co-writing a book with the great Paulo Coelo - author of the Alchemist. Both of these are mind blowing to me.

We can stop here if we wanted to and be in total awe, because that would mean he was great and one of the best in the World in THREE career disciplines (hoops, film-making, and writing) but wait there is more!!

Multilingual - spoke 3-4 languages fluently

Became one of the most sought after motivational speakers in the world (Business, universities, coaches all clamores for his services)

Was a GREAT businessman....and he was a big name and great investor in the startup scene. He and Jeff Stibel created a $100M VC fund in 2016 - months after he retired.

Mentored athletes from every sport (tennis, football, men hoops, women’s hoops, soccer, college and pro athletes). He became a kind of sage or philosopher genius to many of his mentees.

Gave 1:1 and group training to G-league players, NBA players, WNBA and men’s and women’s college players

Mentored businessman and women

Ambassador for women’s hoops and was working in partnership with the WNBA

Family man and great dad - you saw his softer side here

Basketball coach for kids and created his own girls AAU team (he coached the **** thing!)

Created Mamba Academy for athletic training (all athletes) and for hosting boys and girls AAU tournaments weekly

Lastly- he was an authentic dude and he never “lost himself” unlike many athletes. Namely, he could role with any group or swimlane with ease. He could roll with and had friendships with businessman/women from any ethnicity, actors, entertainers, professional athletes, media, regular folks AND he has immense street cred/hood respect.
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Coming up, you were either a Kobe guy or an AI guy. Or white, in which case you liked The Spurs (🤣 I kid I kid).

I was definitely an AI guy, but I dont know a soul who didnt respect his game or approach to his craft. If you didnt, you were just hating.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
You are nuts. This whole "this guy took on the opposing team's best player" myth is just ridiculous. When the Lakers played the Spurs, Kobe wasn't guarding David Robinson or Tim Duncan. Kobe guarded the best guard on the other team, big deal. The stats, both team and individual, as well as the eye test, definitely put Bird and Magic above Kobe (and nowhere do I even mention LeBron).

This is the difference between how you and I make our arguments. I acknowledge that Kobe was very good, but below Bird, Magic, and Jordan. On the other hand, you claim "really no comparison". That is just crazy.

And look at the career stats:

Larry Bird
24.3 PPG
10 Rebounds per game
6.3 Assists per game
1.7 Steals per game

Kobe Bryant
25 PPG
5.2 Rebounds per game
4.7 Assists per game
1.4 Steals per game

So with the exception of Kobe scoring 0.7 more points per game (which is offset by Bird having 1.6 more assists per game, resulting in 3 more points per game by his teammates), Bird was a more prolific rebounder, assists man, and defender, on a per-game basis, with far inferior athletic skills.

And think about this. Bird, Magic, and Jordan all came from families that were not known for their athletic abilities, and with the exception of Jordan's sons, the rest of their families haven't really accomplished much. Kobe's father was a pro basketball player, and by all accounts, Kobe's oldest daughter was a **** good basketball player too.

So, yes, I think that Bird, Magic, and Jordan accomplished more through their "competitiveness" than Kobe did.
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Also let's not forget that in one game Bird who shoots with right scored 20+ points solely using left hand just because he wanted to. Name another player who has done that? People forget how badass Bird was.
 
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So tired of hearing about his self titled Mamba Mentality, like he invented on how to be competitive and prepared. Kobe is on the long list of other superstars champions who has showed that same mentality before him. There is one thing honoring him but everyone is taking this to the next level like he invented slice bread.
 
supersaiyanshel said:
It's MJ imo, and it ain't even close. I'd even put Zeke over Kobe.

Those dudes had to slay legendary dragons to get to the top of the mountain.

Kobe, while a dog, had a bit of an easier path. He basically had to get by Tim Duncan and that was it (who was no pushover, btw).
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no issue with MJ being #1, not a fan of Zeke the person.... kinda of a snake and dream team wanted no part of the guy
however he belongs in the class.... agree on Kobe and we are all getting a bit caught up tragedy of his passing
 
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jurrea29 said:
So tired of hearing about his self titled Mamba Mentality, like he invented on how to be competitive and prepared. Kobe is on the long list of other superstars champions who has showed that same mentality before him. There is one thing honoring him but everyone is taking this to the next level like he invented slice bread.
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I disagree with your take fully and completely. Even pros call him a pros “pro” and here is the difference. Kobe spoke about the Mamba mentality and was able decompose many tenants of his approach at length, with incredible depth, fluency and sophistication.

He could distill it down for kids, the average joe or athletes or tune it way up for businessman. I’ve seen this guy do it, and that’s an incredible skill/gift.

It wasn’t just “uhhh, stay focused, play through pain, and work harder than anyone”, like other athletes
 
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KrazyCane said:
OFFICIAL Top 10 players in NBA History list...

1. Lebron James and it’s not even close

2a. Kobe Bryant - took what Jordan did and made it better. Jordan never scored 81.

2b. Michael Jordan - Great player but will continue to move down the list by the time other current players retire.

4. Kevin Durant - could eventually be the 2nd best player of all time behind Lebron.

5. Shaq O’Neal - Permanently In the top 5.

6. Kawhi Leonard - could eventually be a top 3 player all time with Lebron and KD.

7. Allen Iverson
8. Giannis Antenkompou - could eventually be in the top 5 all time.
9. Magic Johnson
10a. Anthony Davis
10b. James Harden
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Lol...MJ 2b
 
SPFRcane said:
Lol...MJ 2b
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MJ is #1

And and you need to know is most former and current NBA players rank Kobe over LeBron. And this was waaaaaaay before Kobe’s death. And it’s especially hard to find anyone that played with both Kobe and LeBron that has LeBron ranked higher than Kobe.

I don’t even have LeBron in my top 5. I have him ranked 6

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5a. Hakeem / 5b. Shaq
 
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The Svengali said:
MJ is #1

And and you need to know is most former and current NBA players rank Kobe over LeBron. And this was waaaaaaay before Kobe’s death. And it’s especially hard to find anyone that played with both Kobe and LeBron that has LeBron ranked higher than Kobe.

I don’t even have LeBron in my top 5. I have him ranked 6

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5a. Hakeem / 5b. Shaq
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1.) Jordan
2.) Kareem
3.) Magic
4.) Bird
5.) Kobe
6.) Russell
7.) Chamberlain
8.) Oscar Robertson
9.) Dream
10.) Lebron

He's not on here, but John Stockton was one bad **** as well.
 
Jordan's competitiveness is the stuff of legends. He wanted to win at everything and hated losing, whether he was golfing or playing cards with teammates. Christian Laettner told a story of him beating MJ at ping pong when they played together on the '92 Dream Team. He found out years later that after he beat MJ that day, MJ requested a ping pong table be set up in his room and spent all night practicing.
 
The Svengali said:
Very hard to dislike the man he grew into and we all saw it. I hated Kobe as a player but always respected him and grew to admire him the last 2 years of his career. But here is why people loved the guy over the past 5 years, including me. He became incredibly graceful his last two seasons of the NBA, and even more so in retirement.

And accomplishments are just off the charts, and this is why he’s loved (his off the court accomplishments were well on its way to matching what he did on the court)

Top 2-3 basketball player of all time

Net worth: $600 million

Won an Oscar within 2 years of retiring - it takes people 30-40-50-60 Years of disciplined training to achieve this yet he did it in only TWO

New York Times best selling author of children books within 3 years of retiring (Also nuts). Again, this takes some decades of disciplined writing but he did it in 3. Was also in the process of co-writing a book with the great Paulo Coelo - author of the Alchemist. Both of these are mind blowing to me.

We can stop here if we wanted to and be in total awe, because that would mean he was great and one of the best in the World in THREE career disciplines (hoops, film-making, and writing) but wait there is more!!

Multilingual - spoke 3-4 languages fluently

Became one of the most sought after motivational speakers in the world (Business, universities, coaches all clamores for his services)

Was a GREAT businessman....and he was a big name and great investor in the startup scene. He and Jeff Stibel created a $100M VC fund in 2016 - months after he retired.

Mentored athletes from every sport (tennis, football, men hoops, women’s hoops, soccer, college and pro athletes). He became a kind of sage or philosopher genius to many of his mentees.

Gave 1:1 and group training to G-league players, NBA players, WNBA and men’s and women’s college players

Mentored businessman and women

Ambassador for women’s hoops and was working in partnership with the WNBA

Family man and great dad - you saw his softer side here

Basketball coach for kids and created his own girls AAU team (he coached the **** thing!)

Created Mamba Academy for athletic training (all athletes) and for hosting boys and girls AAU tournaments weekly

Lastly- he was an authentic dude and he never “lost himself” unlike many athletes. Namely, he could role with any group or swimlane with ease. He could roll with and had friendships with businessman/women from any ethnicity, actors, entertainers, professional athletes, media, regular folks AND he has immense street cred/hood respect.
Click to expand...


Great post, man. I used to hate the guy but stuff like this turned me as well. Only disagreement is top 2-3 all time but who cares: he's the second best 2 man of all time and his accomplishments and drive to get them were astounding.
 
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