Malcolm Lewis

[LuCane]

First, as you always tell people, read the post a little closer. I didn't say you could use that rationale with "every" player; I said you could use it with almost any player.

Second, if you think Dorsett is the best possible receiver that he can be and can't improve in areas aside from genetics (speed and size), then that's probably why we see this situation differently. I think Dorsett has tremendous room to improve as a receiver just like Streeter did. Everyone said that Streeter couldn't get any faster or taller, so it was a good idea for him to declare. I thought he had plenty of room to improve as a WR, and his draft position proved that.

I'm pretty sure The Don and any other smart HC advises guys that it's a bad idea to leave early if they're not pretty sure to be drafted in the first 2 rounds. This has been the standard for a long time. I don't think Dorsett will be a 1st or 2nd rounder, so it makes no sense to leave early. Once you wind up in the 4th to 6th round area, your chances of even making a roster plummet dramatically. Makes no financial sense to put yourself in that situation when you don't have to. He's got another year, and he should use it to try to improve his skills and his draft stock.

1. I mistakenly used "every," but my point still stands: this is not your typical situation where a player may lose value by staying another year.

2. No, I don't think he's the best possible receiver he can be. If you're asking me to read a little closer, I ask you the same. I didn't say or imply that anywhere in my post. I gave a few examples of things that will contribute to his value as perceived by scouts/NFL GMs. I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list and I certainly wasn't saying he can't be a better WR. What I was definitely stating is that the things I think he can improve won't increase his value relative to the risk he may take by staying another year. It's not a common thing, but guys come back all throughout the NCAA for their senior year and lose value. Some of those guys lose a lot of perceived value for varying reasons - they get picked apart by scouts, etc., their team environment changed from one year to the next, etc., and they don't improve enough to make it worth the extra year. There are examples of this every year, which I'm sure you're aware of. Comparing Dorsett to Streeter is just off, I think. I have plenty of posts on this board and the recruiting board explaining why I thought Streeter should come back for his own benefit.

3. The "Don" argument is something I haven't heard from anyone close to the program or publicly from Coach Golden himself. It's a weird argument. He only advises guys to leave if they're slated for the first two rounds? What if they're top value isn't as 1st or 2nd round picks? What if their top value is as a 3rd or 4th rounder? Wouldn't the best advice be to tell players to get their top worth relative to their risk?

I'll put it this way: if Dorsett submits his papers to get back a draft grade and it comes back as a 3rd or 4th rounder, knowing that he can possibly lose some of that shine next year, would you advise him to return?

It's not a "The Don" argument. It's an established axiom. Coaches don't advise players to leave early to get picked in the 4th through 6th rounds. It makes no sense at all. If you're a 4th to 6th rounder, then you can't really hurt your value by coming back and could dramatically improve it. Those later round picks get no benefit of the doubt and get cut just as easily as free agents. They get no appreciable bonuses or anything.

As for the remainder of your 3rd point, I doubt that coaches feel comfortable seeing so far into the future as to advise a guy that his ultimate top value is a 3rd or 4th rounder. I'd say it's more likely for a player to get advice on where he currently stands, and if the advice comes back stating that he's likely a 4th to 6th rounder that he'd be foolish to leave early, especially, when like Dorsett, he has a ton of room to grow as a player.

I don't see where he stands an appreciable enough risk to lose his "shine" as a 3rd or 4th rounder. There's no shine there to lose. And I don't know why you think he'd stand any more of a chance to lose it than anyone else. I could understand your argument if you thought that Dorsett was at the top of his game as a technician and didn't have much, if any, room for growth as a player. But you're not saying that, so I have no idea what your point is. Are you surmising that he should leave early because other players might pass him on the depth chart? If that's the case, then good luck in the NFL trying not to get passed by other NFL WRs. Or are you claiming that Williams won't be able to get him the ball? I don't see that either, as Williams has shown a very good ability to throw deep passes.

So, just to be clear, you would advise Dorsett to stay if his draft grade comes back as a 3rd rounder?

What are the criteria you think the NFL uses to judge the value of a WR in order to select him in the draft?

Absolutely. I'd never advise anyone to leave early to be a 3rd round pick unless he's a guy on the verge of falling apart physically and wants to squeeze out a couple paychecks. 3rd round is short money. And if he's 3rd round now, then he can be 1st or 2nd next year because he has a LOT of things he can improve on.

Now, please answer my questions.

I saw two questions that seemed rhetorical or just attempts to make the argument about something else:

Are you surmising that he should leave early because other players might pass him on the depth chart?

No. That's a cheap narrowing trick that uses only a slice of the overall problem to intentionally miss my point. Regardless, I don't think anyone would officially "pass" him on the depth chart. There are a number of reasons that, added together, may risk him losing value if he were to come back.

Or are you claiming that Williams won't be able to get him the ball?

No. And, this one seemed strange because I made that clear a few posts above in post #50.

If you are asking why I think he should leave if he gets a good enough draft grade despite having some areas to improve, now I ask you to please answer my question that you skipped above:

What are the criteria you think the NFL uses to judge the value of a WR in order to select him in the draft?

 

[The Franchise]

1. I mistakenly used "every," but my point still stands: this is not your typical situation where a player may lose value by staying another year.

2. No, I don't think he's the best possible receiver he can be. If you're asking me to read a little closer, I ask you the same. I didn't say or imply that anywhere in my post. I gave a few examples of things that will contribute to his value as perceived by scouts/NFL GMs. I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list and I certainly wasn't saying he can't be a better WR. What I was definitely stating is that the things I think he can improve won't increase his value relative to the risk he may take by staying another year. It's not a common thing, but guys come back all throughout the NCAA for their senior year and lose value. Some of those guys lose a lot of perceived value for varying reasons - they get picked apart by scouts, etc., their team environment changed from one year to the next, etc., and they don't improve enough to make it worth the extra year. There are examples of this every year, which I'm sure you're aware of. Comparing Dorsett to Streeter is just off, I think. I have plenty of posts on this board and the recruiting board explaining why I thought Streeter should come back for his own benefit.

3. The "Don" argument is something I haven't heard from anyone close to the program or publicly from Coach Golden himself. It's a weird argument. He only advises guys to leave if they're slated for the first two rounds? What if they're top value isn't as 1st or 2nd round picks? What if their top value is as a 3rd or 4th rounder? Wouldn't the best advice be to tell players to get their top worth relative to their risk?

I'll put it this way: if Dorsett submits his papers to get back a draft grade and it comes back as a 3rd or 4th rounder, knowing that he can possibly lose some of that shine next year, would you advise him to return?

It's not a "The Don" argument. It's an established axiom. Coaches don't advise players to leave early to get picked in the 4th through 6th rounds. It makes no sense at all. If you're a 4th to 6th rounder, then you can't really hurt your value by coming back and could dramatically improve it. Those later round picks get no benefit of the doubt and get cut just as easily as free agents. They get no appreciable bonuses or anything.

As for the remainder of your 3rd point, I doubt that coaches feel comfortable seeing so far into the future as to advise a guy that his ultimate top value is a 3rd or 4th rounder. I'd say it's more likely for a player to get advice on where he currently stands, and if the advice comes back stating that he's likely a 4th to 6th rounder that he'd be foolish to leave early, especially, when like Dorsett, he has a ton of room to grow as a player.

I don't see where he stands an appreciable enough risk to lose his "shine" as a 3rd or 4th rounder. There's no shine there to lose. And I don't know why you think he'd stand any more of a chance to lose it than anyone else. I could understand your argument if you thought that Dorsett was at the top of his game as a technician and didn't have much, if any, room for growth as a player. But you're not saying that, so I have no idea what your point is. Are you surmising that he should leave early because other players might pass him on the depth chart? If that's the case, then good luck in the NFL trying not to get passed by other NFL WRs. Or are you claiming that Williams won't be able to get him the ball? I don't see that either, as Williams has shown a very good ability to throw deep passes.

So, just to be clear, you would advise Dorsett to stay if his draft grade comes back as a 3rd rounder?

What are the criteria you think the NFL uses to judge the value of a WR in order to select him in the draft?

Absolutely. I'd never advise anyone to leave early to be a 3rd round pick unless he's a guy on the verge of falling apart physically and wants to squeeze out a couple paychecks. 3rd round is short money. And if he's 3rd round now, then he can be 1st or 2nd next year because he has a LOT of things he can improve on.

Now, please answer my questions.

I saw two questions that seemed rhetorical or just attempts to make the argument about something else:

Are you surmising that he should leave early because other players might pass him on the depth chart?

No. That's a cheap narrowing trick that uses only a slice of the overall problem to intentionally miss my point. Regardless, I don't think anyone would officially "pass" him on the depth chart. There are a number of reasons that, added together, may risk him losing value if he were to come back.

Or are you claiming that Williams won't be able to get him the ball?

No. And, this one seemed strange because I made that clear a few posts above in post #50.

If you are asking why I think he should leave if he gets a good enough draft grade despite having some areas to improve, now I ask you to please answer my question that you skipped above:

What are the criteria you think the NFL uses to judge the value of a WR in order to select him in the draft?

Classic Slippery Lu. Didn't answer a single question. I'm not going to keep answering your questions while you ignore all of mine and refuse to justify your position.

Your position is that Dorsett should leave early if he's pegged to go high enough. I'm going to assume that you think the 3rd round is high enough even though you haven't really stated your position there either. You further stated that you think he, unlike most others that you would advise to come back, is a bit of a unique case in that he stands a real risk of slipping by coming back for his senior season. Simple question that you danced around is this: Why do you think Dorsett (a guy you admitted has a lot of things he can improve upon) would not improve his draft stock by coming back for his senior season? Why is he different than a guy like Streeter in that regard, who you thought should have returned?

 

[LuCane]

It's not a "The Don" argument. It's an established axiom. Coaches don't advise players to leave early to get picked in the 4th through 6th rounds. It makes no sense at all. If you're a 4th to 6th rounder, then you can't really hurt your value by coming back and could dramatically improve it. Those later round picks get no benefit of the doubt and get cut just as easily as free agents. They get no appreciable bonuses or anything.

As for the remainder of your 3rd point, I doubt that coaches feel comfortable seeing so far into the future as to advise a guy that his ultimate top value is a 3rd or 4th rounder. I'd say it's more likely for a player to get advice on where he currently stands, and if the advice comes back stating that he's likely a 4th to 6th rounder that he'd be foolish to leave early, especially, when like Dorsett, he has a ton of room to grow as a player.

I don't see where he stands an appreciable enough risk to lose his "shine" as a 3rd or 4th rounder. There's no shine there to lose. And I don't know why you think he'd stand any more of a chance to lose it than anyone else. I could understand your argument if you thought that Dorsett was at the top of his game as a technician and didn't have much, if any, room for growth as a player. But you're not saying that, so I have no idea what your point is. Are you surmising that he should leave early because other players might pass him on the depth chart? If that's the case, then good luck in the NFL trying not to get passed by other NFL WRs. Or are you claiming that Williams won't be able to get him the ball? I don't see that either, as Williams has shown a very good ability to throw deep passes.

So, just to be clear, you would advise Dorsett to stay if his draft grade comes back as a 3rd rounder?

What are the criteria you think the NFL uses to judge the value of a WR in order to select him in the draft?

Absolutely. I'd never advise anyone to leave early to be a 3rd round pick unless he's a guy on the verge of falling apart physically and wants to squeeze out a couple paychecks. 3rd round is short money. And if he's 3rd round now, then he can be 1st or 2nd next year because he has a LOT of things he can improve on.

Now, please answer my questions.

I saw two questions that seemed rhetorical or just attempts to make the argument about something else:

Are you surmising that he should leave early because other players might pass him on the depth chart?

No. That's a cheap narrowing trick that uses only a slice of the overall problem to intentionally miss my point. Regardless, I don't think anyone would officially "pass" him on the depth chart. There are a number of reasons that, added together, may risk him losing value if he were to come back.

Or are you claiming that Williams won't be able to get him the ball?

No. And, this one seemed strange because I made that clear a few posts above in post #50.

If you are asking why I think he should leave if he gets a good enough draft grade despite having some areas to improve, now I ask you to please answer my question that you skipped above:

What are the criteria you think the NFL uses to judge the value of a WR in order to select him in the draft?

Classic Slippery Lu. Didn't answer a single question. I'm not going to keep answering your questions while you ignore all of mine and refuse to justify your position.

Your position is that Dorsett should leave early if he's pegged to go high enough. I'm going to assume that you think the 3rd round is high enough even though you haven't really stated your position there either. You further stated that you think he, unlike most others that you would advise to come back, is a bit of a unique case in that he stands a real risk of slipping by coming back for his senior season. Simple question that you danced around is this: Why do you think Dorsett (a guy you admitted has a lot of things he can improve upon) would not improve his draft stock by coming back for his senior season? Why is he different than a guy like Streeter in that regard, who you thought should have returned?

I'm really not trying to be slippery. To call me "classic slipper lu" is just ridiculous. I don't slip anything. Get it together. When you start with the labels, it makes it sound like you can't talk about the subject. I feel like I answered your two questions. No (to what was basically a trick lawyer-like question) and no (I answered the second one twice).

Yes, if he's slated as a 3rd rounder, I think that's high enough and it would be in his best interest to go develop toward his ceiling while getting paid whatever contract he earns. You also correctly stated that I think he is a unique case in that he stands a real risk of slipping some if he were to come back. The answer to your question is really the base of my question to you: I think NFL peeps judge WRs on certain attributes that add up to form a perception of value. I don't think he's that far away from his ceiling in terms of some of his perceived weaknesses. There are lots of examples of guys who come back to squeeze out some draft slots and end up losing a ton of value. You know many of those examples, I presume. He's different than a guy like Streeter for a lot of reasons. Streeter never put up consistency the way Dorsett is perceived to have done.

Streeter was still very raw when he left here in terms of both route running and even his hands (the guy snatched balls on one play and looked like he was cross-eyed the next play and let the ball into his chest on the following play). Streeter draft profile literally says "he's come on strong as of late," that he needed to "develop technical parts of his game," and that he ran "sloppy routes." Had he come back, he would have been given every opportunity to show improvement on those things. Given presumed improvement, he could have worked himself into pick with a decent signing bonus.

On the other hand, it doesn't really have anything to do with "depth chart" as you're seemingly trying to narrow the discussion to, but more to do with "in what facet does Dorsett help us the most and where would he help us the most in 2014?" I believe that's using his vertical ability from the slot. The areas he can improve upon - showing wiggle, showing YAC and being an intermediate WR - are more likely to be assigned to guys like Coley and Waters. They're better fits for those duties, despite the fact Dorsett would still likely be the starter. So, he's gonna go from 58 catches as a Sophomore to probably around 30 this year and maybe to 30 or less his senior season because this team will once again evolve. I anticipate we'll run the ball upward of 400x (something very different than his soph and junior seasons) because Duke Johnson will be a Junior, Gus Edwards will have experience, and Yearby will likely grab carries as well. That backfield actually sounds a lot like what Coley was around in FSU in 2012. Their number of carries? Over 500.

All of that adds up to Dorsett taking a risk in coming back and hurting his perceived value for what? In Football and other sports, as you know, sometimes it's better to have certain things "unknown" before scouts are able to break you apart. The irony here is that I'm not one who rates PD really high. Never have. I just would prefer for him to do what's in his best interest.

 

[JHallCanes]

Golden says he is a freshman.

Board argues about it anyway.

bro but the rooster says he's a sophomores bro

I say we just redshirt Malc this year anyway and save him for next year

He got his redshirt for last year. You can't do it again this year. That medical redshirt is still a redshirt.

My post was complete sarcasm poking fun at the lack of redshirt knowledge on this board

 

[Dingaan1828]

Golden says he is a freshman.

Board argues about it anyway.

bro but the rooster says he's a sophomores bro

I say we just redshirt Malc this year anyway and save him for next year

He got his redshirt for last year. You can't do it again this year. That medical redshirt is still a redshirt.

My post was complete sarcasm poking fun at the lack of redshirt knowledge on this board

I realized that only after Rok posted after my post. I should have known that you knew better.

 

[HurricaneinLA]

In an interview Al had some great things to say about Malcolm

He's a freshman, got his freshman year back, he's a redshirt freshman. From that standpoint he's ahead. What a brave young man. Never made an excuse, made all his treatments, did everything extra to expedite his return. I've been saying it the last five or six practices, he's starting to look like Malcolm again. He made some really great catches last week, laying out for balls, which tells me he's feeling good.

Malcolm getting the redshirt is huge for him and this team. It's also very exciting to hear that he is finally starting to look like the game changer that he is. With a 100% Malcolm this WR core will become even more explosive, once Scott is back this is going to be very exciting.

hopefully add Derrick Griffin to the mix as well