Ivins: “numbers situation”

[Empirical Cane]

Thats a real disservice to those young men Smh.

It's just life.

Now, there are some of the athletes who can handle the legitimate academic load and some (a much smaller percentage) of the "normal" students who can't.

It's no different that the University level. There is a standard for athlete entrance, and a standard for everyone else.

Life goes on.

 

[JOE'CANE]

It's just life.

Now, there are some of the athletes who can handle the legitimate academic load and some (a much smaller percentage) of the "normal" students who can't.

It's no different that the University level. There is a standard for athlete entrance, and a standard for everyone else.

Life goes on.

Smh yes it does. Thanks for the info.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

A deep dive inside the NCAA's tweaked 25-man signing limit and how it could have drastic impacts on rosters

Willie Fritz is one of the lucky ones.

www.theadvocate.com

 

[mirvin88]

Yes, but your "examples" are what give people the wrong ideas.

First, the "February signing day" is not the only number that counts. Sure, we "signed 18" and then we took a bunch of portal guys. So, you CAN'T just look at the signing class to calculate numbers.

Second, Miami had NCAA scholarship losses, another reason why we could not quite reload on our numbers.

Third, we have no more countbacks, so everyone just needs to stop mentioning that as a possibility for being able to sign more than 25.

If we EVER get over 25, it will be due to the mid-year graduation exception, or some similar exemption (like trying to get the NCAA to not count Asa Martin from last year).

Bro, that was purely a hypothetical example to explain how it works and not representative of our situation.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I believe this is only until spring. Grad transfers that transfer after May graduation should not be affected.

Everyone counts as an IC for some particular year (freshmen, JuCos, Grad transfers).

They have to count against some year's IC numbers. So if you try to count forward, you cannibalize the next year.

 

[mirvin88]

Please explain to me then how Penn State signed 27 kids on the December early signing day???

Because they signed 23 for 2019 so obviously two probably back counted to that classes.

23 +27 = 50

50/2 = 25 calendar limit

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Bro, that was purely a hypothetical example to explain how it works and not representative of our situation.

I understand.

But it's how some people on this board keep getting the wrong idea.

Everyone just needs to keep repeating this phrase: "Miami has no countbacks left".

That will solve a lot of the ignorance. Or maybe not.

 

[mirvin88]

I understand.

But it's how some people on this board keep getting the wrong idea.

Everyone just needs to keep repeating this phrase: "Miami has no countbacks left".

That will solve a lot of the ignorance. Or maybe not.

Yes with all of the transfers we're full and can only sign 1-2 IIRC depending on Moises situation, period.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

That's what I was asking, if they count towards this year's IC if they're May graduates or Summer enrollees.

Basically, if they're saying we only have one IC left for Spring enrollment, then that means we could still add players that will count towards next year's IC because they're not enrolling until Summer-Fall sessions.

We had 13 EE's & 3 transfers plus a late signee in the WR from San Diego, which count towards the IC's we had from last year if I understand it correctly.

So all the kids who will enroll be they HS or Transfers from May-August count towards the next IC's & not the current counter.

There's no such thing as "spring enrollment" when it comes to IC rules. The rule is 25 per academic year. And it is based on ENROLLMENT.

To use a simplified example, let's say that you signed 25 high school kids in February, and they all enrolled August 2020. That would be the 2020-2021 academic year. You could then sign 25 high school kids who early-enroll in January 2021, but they would count towards the 2021-2022 year, even though you enrolled 50 people in the same academic year. The "countforward" component is used so that early enrollees are not penalized, but that is not some kind of method that allows you to oversign and have 50 people come in, while still having 25 spots for the next year.

25 IC slots, with the ability to early-enroll. Everyone counts, in some year. Pick your poison.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Yes with all of the transfers we're full and can only sign 1-2 IIRC depending on Moises situation, period.

Yes sir.

We just have some posters who either (a) look ONLY at our Signing Day signing class, without counting JuCos, grad transfer, or late signees, or (b) look at another school's signing class (without knowing their details) and complain as if Miami is somehow not doing everything it can to sign as many players as other schools.

Oh, and (c) you have some posters who scream about Miami being under 25 while saying "good riddance" to every UM player who transfers, thinks about transferring, is rumored to transfer, or leaves early for the NFL. Miami needs to retain more of the 25 signees for 4 to 5 years. It's the ONLY way we will ever sniff 85 RECRUITED scholarship players (as we always get to 85 by giving available scholarships to walk-ons).

 

[TheOriginalCane]

They count against something. Either this years class or next years class but I don’t think there is any grace period anywhere where a transfer doesn’t count against your ICs

Correct.

There is not some magical period during which we have "free summertime spots" to sign grad transfers.

25 per year, 100 every 4 years, 135 every 5 years, everyone counts, coaches need to figure it out.

 

[Fawk_U Haters]

There's no such thing as "spring enrollment" when it comes to IC rules. The rule is 25 per academic year. And it is based on ENROLLMENT.

To use a simplified example, let's say that you signed 25 high school kids in February, and they all enrolled August 2020. That would be the 2020-2021 academic year. You could then sign 25 high school kids who early-enroll in January 2021, but they would count towards the 2021-2022 year, even though you enrolled 50 people in the same academic year. The "countforward" component is used so that early enrollees are not penalized, but that is not some kind of method that allows you to oversign and have 50 people come in, while still having 25 spots for the next year.

25 IC slots, with the ability to early-enroll. Everyone counts, in some year. Pick your poison.

But it’s not based in enrollment at this time I don’t think. There was talk of that changing the rule but kids who sign and don’t qualify count against your ICs at this time I believe. I know there was talk of changing that a the last couple of years but I don’t know if they actually passed the change.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

That's what I was asking, if they count towards this year's IC if they're May graduates or Summer enrollees.

Basically, if they're saying we only have one IC left for Spring enrollment, then that means we could still add players that will count towards next year's IC because they're not enrolling until Summer-Fall sessions.

We had 13 EE's & 3 transfers plus a late signee in the WR from San Diego, which count towards the IC's we had from last year if I understand it correctly.

So all the kids who will enroll be they HS or Transfers from May-August count towards the next IC's & not the current counter.

Nope.

Another way of thinking about it is this.

The very first year that the IC rules were implemented, all 25 had to count somewhere. Let's pretend that year was 2010-2011 (academic year, beginning in fall semester 2010). You couldn't go out and sign 25 early enrollees for January 2010 (thus, beating the implementation of the rule by claiming those kids against the 2009-2010 academic year) AND sign 25 kids to enroll in August 2010 (thus counting against the 2010-2011 academic year).

The "countback rule" is rule that would allow you to use unused IC slots from the prior year. The "countforward rule" is just a rule that allows a kid to enroll early, but to be counted in the academic year for which he more properly belongs. This can easily be managed by the fact that football really only takes place during the fall semester. Thus, anyone coming in for January or beyond is already really only eligible to PLAY in the next academic year.

IF IF IF anyone who enrolled at Miami in January is an Initial Counter for the 2019-2020 academic year, it would be under the "Mid-Year Graduation Replacement Exception". In reality, nearly every January 2020 Miami enrollee will be an Initial Counter for the 2020-2021 academic year.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

But it’s not based in enrollment at this time I don’t think. There was talk of that changing the rule but kids who sign and don’t qualify count against your ICs at this time I believe. I know there was talk of changing that a the last couple of years but I don’t know if they actually passed the change.

It's "based on enrollment" to the extent that everyone who enrolls must count as an IC.

But the TIMING of the enrollment is not exactly the same as the academic year in which one is an IC. For practical purposes, nearly everyone who enrolls in January 2020, May 2020, or August 2020 counts towards the "upcoming" 2020-2021 academic year.

At this point, if ANYONE from January 2020 can be counted as an IC on the 2019-2020 academic year, it would be under the Mid-Year Graduation Replacement Rule Exception.

EDIT: PS, oh, and the other "enrollment exception" is the one you mentioned for kids who don't qualify, they will now still count as ICs even though they do NOT enroll.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Yeah agreed mate. Not sure which school it was, I thought it was Ole Miss also

It's amazing. Everyone remembers the Ole Miss signing class from 11 years ago. Nobody remembers that the NCAA has changed the rules to prevent Ole Miss from doing this again, more recently (and multiple times).

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Yes, I remember this strategy from the Butch era. He would convince a recruit to wait until the following Spring to enroll. This would give the recruit an extra Spring practice before his freshman season and let Butch manipulate the annual scholarship limits. IIRC.

Except that this never happened because of the IC rules, which did not exist at the time.

Name all of the Butch recruits who delayed enrollment.

People are confusing the OTHER things that Butch did to get under the OVERALL scholarship limitations.

 

[NorthernVirginiaCane]

I understand.

But it's how some people on this board keep getting the wrong idea.

Everyone just needs to keep repeating this phrase: "Miami has no countbacks left".

That will solve a lot of the ignorance. Or maybe not.

You are missing the point. If Miami wants to sign one or two more graduate transfers after they graduate in May, they likely count towards the next academic year. Yes, that takes spots available from next year.

Eventually the grad transfers staying one year only catch up to you if you are trying to have 80+ scholarships on your team, but if Manny wants to keep his job, he needs to win 10 games, and that means finding a way to get better offensive lineman.

 

[Big Toney]

Okay thanks, I was wondering that.

If that's the case then we can still bring in at least 1 OT & a CB Grad transfer for Fall camp.

I think this is what Ivins mentioned in his podcast last week. He mentioned the staff wanted to see what they had on the O Line before bringing any in.

 

[Fawk_U Haters]

Except that this never happened because of the IC rules, which did not exist at the time.

Name all of the Butch recruits who delayed enrollment.

People are confusing the OTHER things that Butch did to get under the OVERALL scholarship limitations.

IIRC the only thing butch did, which did in fact promt a rule change, was out Santana Moss on a track scholly for the first couple years.

Since then the rules have been changed to say that you can give a kid a scholly in another sport but the second that kid plays in a football game his scholly reverts to a football scholly

 

[TheOriginalCane]

You are missing the point. If Miami wants to sign one or two more graduate transfers after they graduate in May, they likely count towards the next academic year. Yes, that takes spots available from next year.

Eventually the grad transfers staying one year only catch up to you if you are trying to have 80+ scholarships on your team, but if Manny wants to keep his job, he needs to win 10 games, and that means finding a way to get better offensive lineman.

No, I think you are missing the point.

Nearly every January 2020, May 2020, and August 2020 enrollee is going to count towards the 2020-2021 academic year. Somebody invented "February to February", but that's actually not a thing. The NCAA looks at academic year (starting in the fall). If any of our January 2020 enrollments counts towards the 2019-2020 academic year, it will be due to the Mid-Year Graduation Replacement Rule Exception. So, MAYBE a couple of January 2020 enrollments count toward 2019-2020. Otherwise, EVERYONE ELSE counts towards 2020-2019, no matter who they are, no matter when they enroll.

We are already nearly full on our 2020-2021 IC class, and no grad transfers who enroll in August 2020 are boing to be able to count towards the 2021-2022 academic year.