Ivins: “numbers situation”

Anyone know what he’s talking about?


As someone else mentioned he’s talking about the 25 per year player limit and that when a player transfers out you don’t get their spot back in a future class. So if players transfer out it makes it difficult to maintain a full roster and not have scholarships wasted.
He also discusses that because the 2021 class is LOADED the coaching staff may be hesitant to count someone forward and take a slot away from the 2021 cycle.
 
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It's amazing. Everyone remembers the Ole Miss signing class from 11 years ago. Nobody remembers that the NCAA has changed the rules to prevent Ole Miss from doing this again, more recently (and multiple times).
This is what I don't understand, seriously. If you're allowed to have 85 scholarships, why do they care how many you sign, if you have room?
 
As someone else mentioned he’s talking about the 25 per year player limit and that when a player transfers out you don’t get their spot back in a future class. So if players transfer out it makes it difficult to maintain a full roster and not have scholarships wasted.
He also discusses that because the 2021 class is LOADED the coaching staff may be hesitant to count someone forward and take a slot away from the 2021 cycle.
We've been saying the next class is loaded for at least a decade and we continue to whiff on signing day. At some point, we need to worry about now.
 
This is what I don't understand, seriously. If you're allowed to have 85 scholarships, why do they care how many you sign, if you have room?



They care because certain programs were over-promising, and also forcing out sophomores and juniors who weren't starters.

Look, there are a lot of things I hate about the NCAA, and I also hope that they will come up with some common-sense revisions to this rule, but the IC rules were a necessity given what was happening at certain programs. It was the impact to the individual student-athletes.

Recruits who have done nothing wrong shouldn't be forced out of a signing class in August because the coach was playing numbers games. And sophomores and juniors who have done nothing wrong except not turn out to be superstars (as they were "projected" to become) should not be forced out of school because the coach didn't project or develop them accurately.
 
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LOL...here’s what is fact. Miami continues to fall short of the max 85 ‘ships! And they have for many years!

Penny pinching mother****ers
 
Everyone counts as an IC for some particular year (freshmen, JuCos, Grad transfers).

They have to count against some year's IC numbers. So if you try to count forward, you cannibalize the next year.
Is there a rule that won’t allow you to cannibalize the following years class after that though? Is it just a one time count forward exception?
 
August is the next academic year.

No it's not.

August is the 2020-2021 academic year. The year that nearly every January 2020 signee will fall into anyhow. Early enrollment doesn't create a space-time vortex. Everyone counts towards 2020-2021 unless there was a Mid-Year Graduation Replacement Rule exception or two, which could count against 2019-2020.

2020-2021 is not "next year". It's this year, for all practical purposes. Nearly everyone enrolling in 2020 is counting towards 2020-2021.

Stop playing semantics games that are meaningless. There's no "grad transfer who enrolls in the summer" exception.
 
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Is there a rule that won’t allow you to cannibalize the following years class after that though? Is it just a one time count forward exception?


No, and we need to stop thinking about "counting forward" as being some type of thing we could do.

We are maxed out. Period.

Time for the CIS armchair coaches to stop inventing scenarios where we can sign more guys.

The actual coaches know the rules and know our limits.
 
They care because certain programs were over-promising, and also forcing out sophomores and juniors who weren't starters.

Look, there are a lot of things I hate about the NCAA, and I also hope that they will come up with some common-sense revisions to this rule, but the IC rules were a necessity given what was happening at certain programs. It was the impact to the individual student-athletes.

Recruits who have done nothing wrong shouldn't be forced out of a signing class in August because the coach was playing numbers games. And sophomores and juniors who have done nothing wrong except not turn out to be superstars (as they were "projected" to become) should not be forced out of school because the coach didn't project or develop them accurately.
I kinda get that there aren't a lot of teams that can do that and a player knows the risk in signing at a place like that. Also, weren't scholarships always known as 1 year renewals anyway, I can see if they wanted to address that too. However, this is a clusterfack and most schools are being punished for fickle kids because a couple schools can be selective. Something has to give.
 
Nope.

Another way of thinking about it is this.

The very first year that the IC rules were implemented, all 25 had to count somewhere. Let's pretend that year was 2010-2011 (academic year, beginning in fall semester 2010). You couldn't go out and sign 25 early enrollees for January 2010 (thus, beating the implementation of the rule by claiming those kids against the 2009-2010 academic year) AND sign 25 kids to enroll in August 2010 (thus counting against the 2010-2011 academic year).

The "countback rule" is rule that would allow you to use unused IC slots from the prior year. The "countforward rule" is just a rule that allows a kid to enroll early, but to be counted in the academic year for which he more properly belongs. This can easily be managed by the fact that football really only takes place during the fall semester. Thus, anyone coming in for January or beyond is already really only eligible to PLAY in the next academic year.

IF IF IF anyone who enrolled at Miami in January is an Initial Counter for the 2019-2020 academic year, it would be under the "Mid-Year Graduation Replacement Exception". In reality, nearly every January 2020 Miami enrollee will be an Initial Counter for the 2020-2021 academic year.
Thanks for the clarification, I was unsure as to how it all works with IC rules.
 
No.

He got Andre King to "walk on" after playing pro baseball. And he signed Santana Moss to a track scholarship. And Joaquin Gonzalez got an academic scholarship (and chose not to go to Harvard).

None of those were grayshirt situations, they were simply efforts to evade the overall scholarship limitation due to NCAA probation.

I’m pretty sure it was stated before that he utilized the gray shirt rule for a couple yrs to help as well. And some posters remember the same. As one poster stated, it was two players, but that would make sense being that we were on probation for 3 yrs.

Im sure other schools are not gray shirting players every year; a player here or there, yes...but gray & blue shirts are not common in general.

Again, that’s what was stated....too young to remember besides Santana being a track offer.
 
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Except that this never happened because of the IC rules, which did not exist at the time.

Name all of the Butch recruits who delayed enrollment.

People are confusing the OTHER things that Butch did to get under the OVERALL scholarship limitations.
I remember the term ‘grey-shirts’ from that era. I may be wrong.
 
 
Read the articles


Scholarship Limits

If you include the recent signees, Miami currently has 75 players on scholarship. With the NCAA limit of scholarships at the FBS level being 85, this would seem to imply that Miami can sign 10 additional players to scholarships. I’ll detail the breakdown of the 75 players in more detail as I walk through the roster below.

There is an additional restriction outside of the 85-scholarship limit at any one time and that’s the fact that a team can only sign 25 new counting scholarships per year. This is what really hurts Miami this cycle and here’s why: last season Miami signed 17 recruits, but because of the transfer additions, ended up at 25 counters. Asa Martin, Bubba Bolden, Tate Martell, Trevon Hill, Chigozie Nnoruka, Jaelen Phillips, Ousman Traore, KJ Osborn all counted against last year’s counter limit.

Additionally, Miami had only three of the freshmen last year enroll early (Jeremiah Payton, Jahfari Harvey, Zion Nelson). Freshmen who enroll early are allowed to be counted towards the previous years’ 25-counter maximum (provided there is room). The 2018 class added 23 recruits, but Venzell Boulware came in as a grad transfer and brought the class to 24, giving Miami one counter towards that class and with the dominoes moving Miami to have the ability to sign 26 players in this class.

The 2017 class signed 24 recruits, then added George Brown as a graduate transfer, bringing that years’ class up to the maximum 25-counter limit. Because of sanctions that ended in 2016, Miami could only sign up to 22 players in that class. They signed 17 freshmen, took Gerald Willis as a transfer, then added graduate transfer Adrian Colbert, meaning they could roll three scholarships into the 2015 class. The sanction years class took their full allotment of 22 players and maximized the roll-back option to its fullest so trickle trail ends here.

This brings us back to the fact the maximum Miami can sign in this class is 26 new counter scholarship players. Miami has applied for an additional waiver to allow for one additional player due to Asa Martin leaving in the same semester he enrolled, but I am operating under the assumption that waiver will not be granted and Miami will be limited to 26 new counters for this cycle.

Whenever you see the potential of taking a marginal addition to the roster it’s important to remember the impact that addition can end up having down the road. If they had it to do over again, I wonder if Miami would sign Asa Martin, George Brown, and Ousman Traore again? For me, I wouldn’t be taking any non-graduate transfers unless they are expected to be major impact players due to the impact it has on the roster composition.


The last two paragraphs in the quoted section lays out that we can bring in 26 new counters (signed recruits plus transfers). The previous 4 explain why we can only bring in 26.
 
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this thread needs to be in the Recruiting Forum. hope this makes sense in the table below. we have 1 left I believe for 2020 and 2 if Moise is out. we have no counters left to count backwards from 2020 to 2019. for example in 2019 we signed 27 people. you will notice Hedley has a 27. in front of his name of the total and a (25) to the right of his name signifying the 2019 counter. 1 and 2 are missing in 2019 column because they can be counted backwards to 2018 and I listed them at the bottom of 2018. In 2018, Baxa is number (23) towards the counter thus we can take 2 more from 2019 class James and Osborn

Image 1-26-20 at 8.53 PM.jpeg
 
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so I don't see on the above chart how we get to 26 like some people are saying. now if we can get the ASA Martin counter back, which I think we have a great shot at it cause he enrolled and left in the same semester, then we have 2 more slots
 
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