Interesting stat regarding the NFL Combine

[L A M P]

So, instead of responding to the cold, hard numbers in this post, you tuck tail and run? This is why I tagged you- I knew you had nothing. Salute to the others for at least trying to nibble around the edges. If you're looking at quality, our guys started significantly more NFL games. They were better NFL players. If you're looking at quantity, we had way more NFL players. By either measure, Miami is far ahead of the rest of the Coastal.

Lol I love it. Double down. Keep diggin.

 

[DMoney]

Your responses are just spin cycle nonsense and you keep moving the goalposts to try and wiggle your way out of an embarrassing take that you've had for over a decade.

Let's recap:

I noted that Miami had significantly more high-end draft picks and draft picks overall than the next closest Coastal team, based on your own stats.

You then said, "Uh, ignore my post. I really meant since 2010. And we've had the same amount of Day 1-2 picks as UNC in that span."

I responded by noting that Miami's Day 1-2 picks during that period significantly outperformed UNC's -- 51% more starts in the pros. In other words, they were superior quality. And the quantity of NFL players remained a huge advantage for Miami.

Now, instead of responding with any kind of numbers or analysis, you call me a troll. This is because you can't respond.

It's not lawyering, it's numbers. And you can't respond to the numbers, so you waive the white flag and shout on your way out the door.

 

[423Hurricane]

From the outside looking in, if nothing else, this thread has been entertaining.

 

[Cryptical Envelopment]

 

[BoxingRobes]

Let's talk about moving the goalposts.

I noted that Miami had significantly more high-end draft picks and draft picks overall than the next closest Coastal team, based on your own stats.

You then said, "Uh, ignore my post. I really meant since 2010. And we've had the same amount of Day 1-2 picks as UNC in that span."

I responded by noting that Miami's Day 1-2 picks during that period significantly outperformed UNC's -- 51% more starts in the pros. In other words, they were superior quality. And the quantity of NFL players remained a huge advantage for Miami.

Now, instead of responding with any kind of numbers or analysis, you call me a troll. This is because you can't respond.

It's not lawyering, it's numbers. And you can't respond to the numbers, so you waive the white flag and shout on your way out the door.

I've responded to the numbers plenty, you just like to play with them afterward to try generate a cyclical argument. Its trash.

People have already refuted your numbers, provided context, and you're still crying about it. You're using Jimmy Graham, Sam Shields and other players that barely played at this school to prop up your bad take as each layer gets more embarrassing than the last. You've got multiple people telling you that you need context and nuance, but you're just being obtuse. I can't take you seriously at all. You're just flailing your arms, throwing **** at the wall, hoping it somehow sticks.

Its now an unserious conversation, your points have been refuted by multiple people but you're still trying to move the goalposts around. You don't need to qualify UNC's top talent...they've had a Top 3 draft pick at QB, they have 3 QBs drafted in the NFL, all started games. They have a ton of skill guys still in the NFL. They have Hall of Fame players like Robert Quinn. R1 wide receivers like Hakeem Nicks. Gio Bernard, Javonte Williams. They, too, have R1, Pro Bowl TEs. They've had 10 skill guys drafted in the past 5 drafts. But Miami, with Olivier Vernon and his 9 career sacks and horrendous effort in his final season at Miami should have been better because he ended up playing better in the NFL. I think its pretty easy to show that Miami has NOT had superior quality of talent than UNC, especially of any recent vintage. Miami has had a glut of EDGE guys. Cool, I guess. Most of the good ones barely played here.

The other posters can take care of numbers, I've done my fair share of the lifting over the years on that...now I am putting names to this conversation to continue to show how poorly crafted your argument is.

 

[DMoney]

I've responded to the numbers plenty, you just like to play with them afterward to try generate a cyclical argument. Its trash.

People have already refuted your numbers, provided context, and you're still crying about it. You're using Jimmy Graham, Sam Shields and other players that barely played at this school to prop up your bad take as each layer gets more embarrassing than the last. You've got multiple people telling you that you need context and nuance, but you're just being obtuse. I can't take you seriously at all. You're just flailing your arms, throwing **** at the wall, hoping it somehow sticks.

Its now an unserious conversation, your points have been refuted by multiple people but you're still trying to move the goalposts around. You don't need to qualify UNC's top talent...they've had a Top 3 draft pick at QB, they have 3 QBs drafted in the NFL, all started games. They have a ton of skill guys still in the NFL. They have Hall of Fame players like Robert Quinn. R1 wide receivers like Hakeem Nicks. Gio Bernard, Javonte Williams. They, too, have R1, Pro Bowl TEs. They've had 10 skill guys drafted in the past 5 drafts. But Miami, with Olivier Vernon and his 9 career sacks and horrendous effort in his final season at Miami should have been better because he ended up playing better in the NFL. I think its pretty easy to show that Miami has NOT had superior quality of talent than UNC, especially of any recent vintage. Miami has had a glut of EDGE guys. Cool, I guess. Most of the good ones barely played here.

The other posters can take care of numbers, I've done my fair share of the lifting over the years on that...now I am putting names to this conversation to continue to show how poorly crafted your argument is.

Let me know where the goalposts are.

First, it was talent between 2005-2023. I showed you we had way more Day 1-2 picks and overall picks then the rest of the Coastal, by far.

Next, you shifted to "quality" talent between 2010-2023. I showed you that our guys started more NFL games, per capita and in the aggregate, during that time period. I showed you they won more accolades like Pro Bowls and All-Pros. And I showed you that the overall NFL numbers remained overwhelmingly in Miami's favor.

Now, you are talking about Jimmy Graham. Remove him, and Miami's Day 1-2 picks still outperformed UNC's by 171 NFL starts.

Move the goalposts again, and I'll be happy to kick it right through.

 

[AUcane]

Let me know where the goalposts are.

First, it was talent between 2005-2023. I showed you we had way more Day 1-2 picks and overall picks then the rest of the Coastal, by far.

Next, it was "quality" talent between 2010-2023. I showed you that our guys started more NFL games, per capita and in the aggregate. I showed you they won more accolades like Pro Bowls and All-Pros. And I showed you that the overall NFL numbers remained overwhelmingly in Miami's favor.

Now, you are talking about Jimmy Graham. Remove him, and Miami's Day 1-2 picks still outperformed UNC's by 171 starts.

Move the goalposts again, and I'll be happy to kick it right through.

 

[PIPO]

Let's recap:

I noted that Miami had significantly more high-end draft picks and draft picks overall than the next closest Coastal team, based on your own stats.

You then said, "Uh, ignore my post. I really meant since 2010. And we've had the same amount of Day 1-2 picks as UNC in that span."

I responded by noting that Miami's Day 1-2 picks during that period significantly outperformed UNC's -- 51% more starts in the pros. In other words, they were superior quality. And the quantity of NFL players remained a huge advantage for Miami.

Now, instead of responding with any kind of numbers or analysis, you call me a troll. This is because you can't respond.

It's not lawyering, it's numbers. And you can't respond to the numbers, so you waive the white flag and shout on your way out the door.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

100%.

34% of our draft picks the last 15 years have been in rounds 6 & 7.

At that point it becomes a bit of a dart throw, so slightly better odds to gamble on the athlete from South Florida. But emphasis on slight (which is our whole point). That gamble is one the reasons our Day 3 numbers remain so high.

Special shot out here to 2011 6th RD pick TE Richard Gordon.

- Captain of the "My Birth Certificate says I'm 16 but I'm actually 32" Team
- In 5 years at Miami he had 10 catches for 62 yds at Miami. He played 5 yrs in the NFL and had 4 catches for 14 yds.
- He made over $2 million for 76 yds receiving in 10 years. Gordon is my dude.

Exactly. And I said it before and I'll say it again... those 6th and 7th rounds picks have much more in common with UDFAs when in comes to NFL career length, NFL starts, and Pro Bowls than they do with even 3rd round draft picks.

Athletic talent is tiered (like a pyramid) and that matters to the discussion. It's very hard to measure in a sport like football, but sports like track make this point easier to understand.

The fastest U20 100m outdoor time (electronic) in the US last year was Erriyon Knighton at 10.04s. That's the best.
Add .3 seconds (10.34) to that time and you've got another 14 kids who can run it that time or faster. That's elite.
Add another .3 (10.64) there's 126 kids. That's great.
Add another .3 (10.94) and it shoots up to 365 kids. That's still pretty good.

Being sub-11s for an U20 is pretty impressive feat, for sure. But there is a world of difference between the 10.9s kids and the 10.3s kids. And the number of kids who can run 10.9 to 11.5 is legion.

 

[rsa coral gables]

what is this friendly, respectful disagreement about?

Miami has sucked for two decades? True.
Miami has underperformed with its talent? True.
Miami's peers have done better than Miami with the same or worse talent? True.

what am i missing?

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

DMoney is just lawyering this conversation after he's had his point shredded multiple times by multiple people.

Don't feed the troll.

If he didn't own this place, he'd be sent to Purgatory for this thread.

I wanted to confirm that us maudes can't send @DMoney to Purgatory. I'm not saying there is a rule against it or that I'm philosophically against it. We literally can't do it. I tried, but don't have the access. Well played @Andrew.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

what is this friendly, respectful disagreement about?

Miami has sucked for two decades? True.
Miami has underperformed with its talent? True.
Miami's peers have done better than Miami with the same or worse talent? True. Mostly true (see UNC and sometimes FSU)

what am i missing? Miami's talent advantage against most ACC teams on its schedule is not as great as some believe it to be over the last 10-17 years (range dependent on poster). And some of us are taking the position that these are not mutually exclusive things. That UM's talent advantage has shrunk considerably, while UM has simultaneously failed to take advantage of its (shrinking) talent advantage.

Responses above, but you've mostly got a handle on it.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Let me know where the goalposts are.

First, it was talent between 2005-2023. I showed you we had way more Day 1-2 picks and overall picks then the rest of the Coastal, by far.

Next, you shifted to "quality" talent between 2010-2023. I showed you that our guys started more NFL games, per capita and in the aggregate, during that time period. I showed you they won more accolades like Pro Bowls and All-Pros. And I showed you that the overall NFL numbers remained overwhelmingly in Miami's favor.

Now, you are talking about Jimmy Graham. Remove him, and Miami's Day 1-2 picks still outperformed UNC's by 171 NFL starts.

Move the goalposts again, and I'll be happy to kick it right through.

You're the one that keeps moving the goalposts. For years, you were comparing us against Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, and Clemson...others in this thread have shown through numbers that our talent has not been anywhere on the planet near those types teams for a long time. Those same numbers you've used to make this point have been stated to not be a correlation or cause to anything in college football.

Now you're trying to be cute like a first year stats student playing with data as the conversation has shifted to our standing in the ACC because of how foolish the argument is when comparing against the elite teams in CFB. You're just using false analogies. Its disingenuous. Its trolling.

Starting NFL games as a raw data point has 0 correlation to anything, firstly. Secondly, using it to support the notion that Miami has had more talent is funny. What data do you need to see that hasn't already been posted. Your attempts to counter this are littered with players that barely played here.

You've got the confidence and skill of a Gerry Thomas or Dan Mowrey...your decade long argument hangs on the premise that Miami should have been good if the players that became good actually played when they were here. Look at your list of starts and high end NFL Draft Picks that you pointed out...those players are so talented that we should have won the ACC many times over...except, they barely played. Graham, Njoku, Rousseau, Phillips, Vernon played in 98 games...only starting 43% of them...thats not counting the 6 game suspension for Vernon or Rousseau punting the COVID year. It'd be 37% start rate for Miami if I included those. We did not get one full 12+ game season of starts from a single one of those players. And they, according to your numbers are supposed to be the best we've had to offer.

Very disingenuous to say we have significantly more talent than UNC (we don't nor haven't for a long time) using false analogies (the NuMbErZ you keep posting that have no correlation to anything) with an incorrect conclusion (the heavy lifting of your argument is being done by players that did not play much here at all!)

Nice job, Munyon.

 

[DMoney]

You're the one that keeps moving the goalposts. For years, you were comparing us against Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, and Clemson...others in this thread have shown through numbers that our talent has not been anywhere on the planet near those types teams for a long time.

The argument has always been about the ACC Coastal. Good luck finding posts saying that we had the same talent as Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State and Clemson. The frontline talent was always the difference there.

As for the name-calling, feel free to address me as DMoney. I stand by my takes, and don't need to change my name to hide from them.

 

[Baba Yaga]

View attachment 232484

 

[BoxingRobes]

The argument has always been about the ACC Coastal. Good luck finding posts saying that we had the same talent as Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State and Clemson. The frontline talent was always the difference there.

As for the name-calling, feel free to address me as DMoney. I stand by my takes, and don't need to change my name to hide from them.

I didn't have to look very hard.

"I talked to a couple football folks who went to Alabama after leaving Miami, and they told me flat-out that Miami had better talent at the top levels. They said that once these guys got to the pros and the other stuff (coaching, nutrition) became equal, their talent would shine through. The two examples they gave were Lamar Miller v. Trent Richardson and Olivier Vernon v. Courtney Upshaw. It sounded crazy at the time, but sure enough, the two Canes are outplaying the two Bammers."

This has literally been the backbone of your argument for years.

 

[DMoney]

I didn't have to look very hard.

"I talked to a couple football folks who went to Alabama after leaving Miami, and they told me flat-out that Miami had better talent at the top levels. They said that once these guys got to the pros and the other stuff (coaching, nutrition) became equal, their talent would shine through. The two examples they gave were Lamar Miller v. Trent Richardson and Olivier Vernon v. Courtney Upshaw. It sounded crazy at the time, but sure enough, the two Canes are outplaying the two Bammers."

This has literally been the backbone of your argument for years.

That’s a decades-old quote from a coach who is currently in the NFL. And you left out the part where I said Alabama had superior depth of talent.

 

[RVACane]

Someone help Rip Van Winkle out here. Is someone trying to say we have or have had close to Bama level talent over the last 15 years?

 

[BoxingRobes]

That was a direct quote from a coach 8 years ago. And in that same thread, I noted that the depth of talent was a major edge for Bama.

and you agreed.

and in the post just previous in this very thread...

"The frontline talent was always the difference there."

Now its the depth of talent that was the major edge.

Meanwhile, we're in a thread that has significant numerical support that says Miami's talent is actually just ACC Coastal quality.

Its ok to just say you were wrong and move on. Its fine.

 

[DMoney]

and you agreed.

and in the post just previous in this very thread...

"The frontline talent was always the difference there."

Now its the depth of talent that was the major edge.

Meanwhile, we're in a thread that has significant numerical support that says Miami's talent is actually just ACC Coastal quality.

Its ok to just say you were wrong and move on. Its fine.

Because Alabama has twenty of those top guys, and we have three.

And in the decade since the coach told me that, Alabama stopped producing busts and started churning out NFL stars.