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Interesting breakdown of Gattis's redzone calls.

JayCane20 said:
Don't think TVD has limitations exactly.. At the very least you're overblowing it. He's obviously uncomfortable in the system just like everyone else but he's capable of making all of the throws.

He *missed* 1 throw to Redding. The go route for Keyshawn isn't high % and he had 2 guys trailing him pretty closely. You're discounting the effect of receivers running plays and being re-routed and not being where they're supposed to be when they're supposed to be there.

Imagine you drop back in the pocket with a blind fold on and then take it off after 2.5 seconds and then make a decision.. that's what might as well be happening and you can tell with all of the double clutching and stepping in and out of throws.

Again.. no one is saying a thing about TVD or even Gattis for that matter if Parrish catches his ball, Brashard catches his, and he hits Redding there he's 24/41 for over 300 yards and a TD, maybe 2. Not to mention George tripping over the guy should have been a walk-in TD as well.

Out rushed, out-passed, out-gained, 11 more 1st downs, dominated time of possession. It was a great game-plan and great execution until we got inside the 30 and there were questionable calls. Even with questionable calls.. each drive had a killer.. a penalty that sat us back on one, Knighton tackled by his shoe laces, George tripping over a guy. It comes down to 2 plays for me that sway me from the good game plan to bad - the TVD keeper (terrible) and running it up the middle on 3rd down when the safeties came down. Had 1on1 across the board from the 6 yard line. You have to throw that ball. Other than that.. I can live with everything else.
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You’re a very smart guy who knows the game of football better than me… but have you been at all the games in person?

Arm strength is not part of the conversation.

Yes, TVD is obviously incredibly uncomfortable in the system. He even looked uncomfortable against Bethune (despite gaudy stats).

If you think the only throw TVD missed was to Redding… it’s time to rewatch the game.

The wheel route that almost got picked was horrendous. So were the (two?) hospital balls he threw.

He’s not seeing the field well and struggles to go through his progressions as he locks onto his primary. He doesn’t anticipate the defense. He’s hesitant. And then on top of that his accuracy has been inconsistent and his touch has been terrible.

Maybe he turns a corner. Pray for that (or Garcia getting a shot). But we don’t win 9 games with the TVD who showed up the last 3.
 
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AmherstCane said:
You’re a very smart guy who knows the game of football better than me… but have you been at all the games in person?

Arm strength is not part of the conversation.

Yes, TVD is obviously incredibly uncomfortable in the system. He even looked uncomfortable against Bethune (despite gaudy stats).

If you think the only throw TVD missed was to Redding… it’s time to rewatch the game.

The wheel route that almost got picked was horrendous. So were the (two?) hospital balls he threw.

He’s not seeing the field well and struggles to go through his progressions as he locks onto his primary. He doesn’t anticipate the defense. He’s hesitant. And then on top of that his accuracy has been inconsistent and his touch has been terrible.

Maybe he turns a corner. Pray for that (or Garcia getting a shot). But we don’t win 9 games with the TVD who showed up the last 3.
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All true.

These are all issues that QBs can go through when learning a new offense. He even lacks velocity on many of his throws which can be a sign he is not confident in his decissions.

I would guess, and seriously hope, our last three games will look entirely different than the first three. I still believe he can do it but he will need a lot of help from his OC and WRs if we are to win more games.
 
Gattis runs the downtempo offense. Preverts don’t need date rape drugs anymore. Just put on a tape of Miami’s offense and people will knock the **** out.
 
Play calls are on Gattis.
Poor execution is on Gattis. Seems I've heard "Don't do it until you get it right, do it until you can't get it wrong." somewhere...
 
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AmherstCane said:
You’re a very smart guy who knows the game of football better than me… but have you been at all the games in person?

Arm strength is not part of the conversation.

Yes, TVD is obviously incredibly uncomfortable in the system. He even looked uncomfortable against Bethune (despite gaudy stats).

If you think the only throw TVD missed was to Redding… it’s time to rewatch the game.

The wheel route that almost got picked was horrendous. So were the (two?) hospital balls he threw.

He’s not seeing the field well and struggles to go through his progressions as he locks onto his primary. He doesn’t anticipate the defense. He’s hesitant. And then on top of that his accuracy has been inconsistent and his touch has been terrible.

Maybe he turns a corner. Pray for that (or Garcia getting a shot). But we don’t win 9 games with the TVD who showed up the last 3.
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I was at Southern Miss and Texas A&M.. I see it but I guess it's a different perspective. I think his footwork is slightly off making him miss some of these throws and they're not coming out with great touch and accuracy like we saw last year.. yes I see that. That's part of a new system.

1) What other throw other than to Redding was completely missed in terms of 8/10 times this needs to be hit? Maybe K Smith in the 1st quarter.. still a tough throw very early in the game when you haven't even had a couple throws to find a rhythm. To Brinson in the 1st quarter with pressure in his face? Idk.. Mallory just got whipped on that play. I think there was one or 2 against USM as well. 2 a game is not bad in college. I've seen Bryce Young do the same thing.
2) What wheel are we talking about? The one Parrish was out of bounds double covered or to Arroyo? The one to Arroyo was again the inability of WR to run the right route. Quarters coverage and K Smith ran right into the safety coming in to help instead of forcing the field safety to stick with him up the seam. The field safety then comes over and makes a play when he should have been occupied by the WR. Just not a high football IQ team in general and can't read coverage. Maybe he wasn't coached enough to do it right? 3rd year player though.
3) Again you just described him not going through his progressions... because they're out of sync due to things out of his control.. re-routing, running the wrong route, running a route 2 yards to deep and not coming out of their break when he hits his dropback. Its all timing a rhythm. His progressions aren't progressing the way they're designed. Some more of this could be on TVD and I'm giving him too much credit.. but I'm gonna lean WR right now.

I don't care who is playing QB. It's not gonna look different until you either execute this offense the way it's designed or you get someone like Jeudy who can create separation in a phone booth and doesn't matter if he's running a route a few yards deep, short, or too slow or too fast.. whatever the case. That or just have a security blanket like Restrepo who is open more than 50% of the time and right on time with good chemistry. We have neither.
 
JayCane20 said:
Smith is all Ohio State and obviously had a bone to pick with Gattis from his days at Michigan. Take that into consideration. But he's pretty spot on.. he gave Gattis credit for several good plays. Gave Mario a ton of respect and credit for the run game.

Even when he criticizes Gattis for the route combinations and concepts.. take it with a grain of salt. It may not have been designed that way. No way to know from the outside unless it keeps getting put on tape run that way. Very common early in a regime change and early in the season. Come ACC play.. you can judge it better.

I took a few things from it that you can judge by watching... lack of separation, can't block on the perimeter, and not understanding basic coverages to know when/why/where to run certain routes. Whether we're running it designed that way, guys getting re-routed, or there's a coverage read and option route inside the play.. something isn't right. Not sure where to point blame yet. Simple offenses don't win championships but they deliver quicker success.
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This part to me is important. We've had all spring and fall camp to asses our QB and receivers. Plus the three games played so far. Why our staff can't seem to be a little flexible in regard to creating a certain level of comfort for these two units while still implementing the system that will bring the 'ships is beyond me.
 
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JayCane20 said:
I was at Southern Miss and Texas A&M.. I see it but I guess it's a different perspective. I think his footwork is slightly off making him miss some of these throws and they're not coming out with great touch and accuracy like we saw last year.. yes I see that. That's part of a new system.

1) What other throw other than to Redding was completely missed in terms of 8/10 times this needs to be hit? Maybe K Smith in the 1st quarter.. still a tough throw very early in the game when you haven't even had a couple throws to find a rhythm. To Brinson in the 1st quarter with pressure in his face? Idk.. Mallory just got whipped on that play. I think there was one or 2 against USM as well. 2 a game is not bad in college. I've seen Bryce Young do the same thing.
2) What wheel are we talking about? The one Parrish was out of bounds double covered or to Arroyo? The one to Arroyo was again the inability of WR to run the right route. Quarters coverage and K Smith ran right into the safety coming in to help instead of forcing the field safety to stick with him up the seam. The field safety then comes over and makes a play when he should have been occupied by the WR. Just not a high football IQ team in general and can't read coverage. Maybe he wasn't coached enough to do it right? 3rd year player though.
3) Again you just described him not going through his progressions... because they're out of sync due to things out of his control.. re-routing, running the wrong route, running a route 2 yards to deep and not coming out of their break when he hits his dropback. Its all timing a rhythm. His progressions aren't progressing the way they're designed. Some more of this could be on TVD and I'm giving him too much credit.. but I'm gonna lean WR right now.

I don't care who is playing QB. It's not gonna look different until you either execute this offense the way it's designed or you get someone like Jeudy who can create separation in a phone booth and doesn't matter if he's running a route a few yards deep, short, or too slow or too fast.. whatever the case. That or just have a security blanket like Restrepo who is open more than 50% of the time and right on time with good chemistry. We have neither.
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@jaycane ...This falls directly on coaching, or lack of.
 
SWFLHurricane said:
@jaycane ...This falls directly on coaching, or lack of.
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Probably. One way or another yes it does. Lots of teaching moments on tape now. Gattis said almost verbatim.. if they're not executing it in the meeting room and on the practice field by now it's been scrapped. So they probably covered all of this in meeting rooms and understood it and **** the bed live game. If it keeps happening.. its coaching. Sometimes it takes a mistake in a game and teaching it with examples and then its fixed for good.

It's getting a bit overblown. Lashlee's system with Air raid concepts is supposed to be simple. This isn't simple. It's growing pains. It's gonna happen.

It just can't keep happening like it did with Enos. Stuff was never fixed. But you have a better WR room now than then, a QB who actually shows up to meetings, and plenty of dedicated analysts to cut up tape and cover all of the teaching moments and then some. Plus an easy game coming up to put some of this on tape AGAIN done correctly and a bye week to iron it all out. Zero excuses at this point.
 
JayCane20 said:
I was at Southern Miss and Texas A&M.. I see it but I guess it's a different perspective. I think his footwork is slightly off making him miss some of these throws and they're not coming out with great touch and accuracy like we saw last year.. yes I see that. That's part of a new system.

1) What other throw other than to Redding was completely missed in terms of 8/10 times this needs to be hit? Maybe K Smith in the 1st quarter.. still a tough throw very early in the game when you haven't even had a couple throws to find a rhythm. To Brinson in the 1st quarter with pressure in his face? Idk.. Mallory just got whipped on that play. I think there was one or 2 against USM as well. 2 a game is not bad in college. I've seen Bryce Young do the same thing.
2) What wheel are we talking about? The one Parrish was out of bounds double covered or to Arroyo? The one to Arroyo was again the inability of WR to run the right route. Quarters coverage and K Smith ran right into the safety coming in to help instead of forcing the field safety to stick with him up the seam. The field safety then comes over and makes a play when he should have been occupied by the WR. Just not a high football IQ team in general and can't read coverage. Maybe he wasn't coached enough to do it right? 3rd year player though.
3) Again you just described him not going through his progressions... because they're out of sync due to things out of his control.. re-routing, running the wrong route, running a route 2 yards to deep and not coming out of their break when he hits his dropback. Its all timing a rhythm. His progressions aren't progressing the way they're designed. Some more of this could be on TVD and I'm giving him too much credit.. but I'm gonna lean WR right now.

I don't care who is playing QB. It's not gonna look different until you either execute this offense the way it's designed or you get someone like Jeudy who can create separation in a phone booth and doesn't matter if he's running a route a few yards deep, short, or too slow or too fast.. whatever the case. That or just have a security blanket like Restrepo who is open more than 50% of the time and right on time with good chemistry. We have neither.
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Great breakdown as usual. My impression live was more was on TVD… but I that’s just this fan’s perspective. WRs are absolutely part of the problem but enough of the throws he is missing (and the way he is missing them) appeared to my eye not to be route running issues (though that happened too).

I haven’t rewatched anything, so I’m going on real time observations, but TVD looked to me like a guy who didn’t work hard enough to prepare to play with the confidence he needs to succeed.

We know he’s got the arm to make the throws… but I think he doesn’t trust his decision making (and probably his WRs too… but that’s on him to work with them) so even when he does see and release his delivery is inconsistent.

At some point I’d like to chart his throws because I think his % of throwing into coverage WITH a better option available is way too high for where he should reasonably be expected to be as a returning starter (even despite a new system). Which creates the brainfuk that I think is causing him to miss on the ones you just have to connect.
 
The thing that is concerning, for me, is that our WRs (besides XR7) don't seem engaged. They whiff on blocks, misread coverages, drop balls, etc. All these things are issues of execution (coaching). And, our OC is their direct position coach. He's the guy who's been coaching that horsehsi*t!

My concern, moving forward, is Gattis and CMC do not adjust to the talent in their position room instead of hoping someone turns into Reggie Wayne overnight.
 
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Cane6 said:
My Michigan buddy confirmed it, that day to day WR coaching was majority from a GA and not Gattis
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at the end of the day, ive complained for two straight weeks. if changes are made it wont be till after this year. lets see how we look on 10/8. if we still struggle on O esp against that defense, its going to be a long year
 
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JayCane20 said:
Probably. One way or another yes it does. Lots of teaching moments on tape now. Gattis said almost verbatim.. if they're not executing it in the meeting room and on the practice field by now it's been scrapped. So they probably covered all of this in meeting rooms and understood it and **** the bed live game. If it keeps happening.. its coaching. Sometimes it takes a mistake in a game and teaching it with examples and then its fixed for good.

It's getting a bit overblown. Lashlee's system with Air raid concepts is supposed to be simple. This isn't simple. It's growing pains. It's gonna happen.

It just can't keep happening like it did with Enos. Stuff was never fixed. But you have a better WR room now than then, a QB who actually shows up to meetings, and plenty of dedicated analysts to cut up tape and cover all of the teaching moments and then some. Plus an easy game coming up to put some of this on tape AGAIN done correctly and a bye week to iron it all out. Zero excuses at this point.
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This one of the reasons I hate the "secret playbook", run your offense and take shots during live games and this could have been exposed week 1, waiting til ATM to see that guys dont know how to carry a safety is a **** time to figure it out or tvd work on his timing throwing a fade out of bounds before going to college station.. Have we even done a slot fade or corner route?! This stuff should of been worked on instead of "saving the playbook".. I dont think that has ever worked lol
 
Cane6 said:
My Michigan buddy confirmed it, that day to day WR coaching was majority from a GA and not Gattis
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We have video showing Gattis coaching the wr, from spring til game week.. Now if you want to say its a **** job thats one thing but he is there, idk what he did at mich but here people were complaining he was coaching too much, now its not enough and he chilling on Mario's watch?! lol People say anything

 
AmherstCane said:
Great post (obviously), but it’s understandable that Mario wants to resurrect the NFL pipeline by recruiting AND preparing players to excel at the next level.

I think Mario and Gattis understand the challenges associated with the complexity… and they knew the WR room would be a big problem.

I think they didn’t fully realize/recognize TVD’s limitations… even despite an ESPN article that he didn’t even have a text group with his receivers.
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It sounds like we are in Dan Enos_ Part Deux..
 
AmherstCane said:
Great breakdown as usual. My impression live was more was on TVD… but I that’s just this fan’s perspective. WRs are absolutely part of the problem but enough of the throws he is missing (and the way he is missing them) appeared to my eye not to be route running issues (though that happened too).

I haven’t rewatched anything, so I’m going on real time observations, but TVD looked to me like a guy who didn’t work hard enough to prepare to play with the confidence he needs to succeed.

We know he’s got the arm to make the throws… but I think he doesn’t trust his decision making (and probably his WRs too… but that’s on him to work with them) so even when he does see and release his delivery is inconsistent.

At some point I’d like to chart his throws because I think his % of throwing into coverage WITH a better option available is way too high for where he should reasonably be expected to be as a returning starter (even despite a new system). Which creates the brainfuk that I think is causing him to miss on the ones you just have to connect.
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I left A&M with the same thoughts until I re-watched the condensed game and the offensive plays on youtube. I saw the quarters coverage plan in real time right in front of me and called it out to my friend as why Smith didn't go straight to the end zone or rub the safety to keep him from making a play instead of cutting it off before he got to him.

The routes being run wrong start to really show up when you can see the yellow first down marker and knowing you run those plays to the sticks not 2-3 yards past.

No doubt something is off with TVD. I think Roman pointed out the mechanics and stepping off his throws instead of driving to them.. i think its causing his ball to float a bit and then sometimes causes him to pull it to the front trying to put more on it missing left. Very correctable. The harder to correct stuff will be the rhythm throws without a true WR1.. big concern in a pro-style system with West Coast concepts like this.
 
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