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TheOriginalCane said:
These youngsters can't even comprehend what Ray did as a TRUE FRESHMAN on a lightly-talented team. Ray knew what he was doing, he dominated, he produced, he led. AS A FRESHMAN. And as the key target for opposing offenses to neutralize, they still couldn't shut Ray down.
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Him and Dan. We haven't seen linebacker play like that in a LONG time.
 
SWFLHurricane said:
Dee...I still feel he could've started over Mira
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Absolutely. That's why I said if bos would've been on our team I would've put him just behind Mike for our 4th best all time. Mira doesn't make our top 6 or 7. From what I've been told about him I understand why he took the roids.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I'd put Calvin Johnson on the list ahead of Larry Fitzgerald. Sorry. And I watched both of them play Miami.

Calvin Johnson was just stunningly good. That one pass he caught against Miami, I think the QB was just trying to throw the ball away, and Calvin stuck out one hand and palmed the ball. Jaw-dropping.
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Nah. Not even close when you define COLLEGIATE CAREERS. Calvin coming out of Georgia tech was like all them boys coming out of lsu. Horrible mismanagement. He definitely had some moments. But nowhere close to Fitzgerald. I'll look up stats to see if I'm remembering this accurately or not but I'm pretty sure I am.



So I just looked it up and he had better numbers than I thought. BUT 800 fresh and soph and 1200 jr. Opposed to 1000 fr 1600 soph for Larry. Both **** good considering underclassmen yrs on basic squads. But I'd still go Larry. He was dominant from the second he signed.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
**** Butkus and Ray Lewis.
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Obviously, he is the GOAT linebacker for the pros, but I also think Ray Lewis is one of the best linebackers of all time for the college level. I just don't think he had the college career of other linebackers, so he's not on my list according to the requirements. I would still take him over almost any other linebacker at the college level. He was that good.
 
Stats02 said:
Obviously, he is the GOAT linebacker for the pros, but I also think Ray Lewis is one of the best linebackers of all time for the college level. I just don't think he had the college career of other linebackers, so he's not on my list according to the requirements. I would still take him over almost any other linebacker at the college level. He was that good.
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Depends how you define their college careers. If it's specifically about tackles and nothing else I suppose you could say that. But a career is defined by FAR more than what you put on paper. Ray PERIOD from day 1 was a HUGE upgrade for the team as a whole with all of his intangibles and what his game did for each of us. To this day I've never seen anyone so cerebral about how he approached the game. We knew what the offense was doing before they did & he was NEVER out of position or took a bad angle.
 
BoxingRobes said:
I am not even trashing Boz as a player...he was good...no disrespect...his "greatness" is just a byproduct of his excellent marketing. Cornelius Bennett even received more votes for All-American than Boz in '86. All three were 2x All-Americans in 85/86, definitely Boz's contemporaries in college and proved they were actually better linebackers as their careers at the position progressed.
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No doubt, the Boz had excellent marketing, which might have helped him win some of his awards. It's not a secret that the powers that be that give out awards love Oklahoma. Never have we seen a greater robbery (besides the 2002 NC) than the 2003 end of year awards when Derrick Strait from Oklahoma won the Jim Thorpe Award over Sean Taylor.

Now, despite Bosworth's excellent marketing, he still produced on the field. He had almost 400 tackles in 3 years, and consistently had OU in the top 5 of defenses. It's hard to find his college stats, as well as other players from his era, but I know he was responsible for good amount of forced fumbles and tackles for loss. He wasn't just bringing down running backs after they crossed the line of scrimmage. He was all over the field creating havoc.
 
Brooklyndee said:
Depends how you define their college careers. If it's specifically about tackles and nothing else I suppose you could say that. But a career is defined by FAR more than what you put on paper. Ray PERIOD from day 1 was a HUGE upgrade for the team as a whole with all of his intangibles and what his game did for each of us. To this day I've never seen anyone so cerebral about how he approached the game. We knew what the offense was doing before they did & he was NEVER out of position or took a bad angle.
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Oh, I agree. My list of "Greatest" college players would look nothing like this current list. Personally, I think Ray was better than Dan Morgan, but his accolades, accomplishments, stats, aren't at good. ****, I don't actually think Archie Griffin is better than Eric ****erson or Wills McGahee, but he had a better college career based on certain criteria.
 
Brooklyndee said:
Nah. Not even close when you define COLLEGIATE CAREERS. Calvin coming out of Georgia tech was like all them boys coming out of lsu. Horrible mismanagement. He definitely had some moments. But nowhere close to Fitzgerald. I'll look up stats to see if I'm remembering this accurately or not but I'm pretty sure I am.



So I just looked it up and he had better numbers than I thought. BUT 800 fresh and soph and 1200 jr. Opposed to 1000 fr 1600 soph for Larry. Both **** good considering underclassmen yrs on basic squads. But I'd still go Larry. He was dominant from the second he signed.
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I hear ya. And while I don't dispute any of that, I would just point out that Rod Rutherford was a consistently more-accurate and higher-rated QB for Fitz's two years compared to Reggie Ball for Calvin's 3 years. In Calvin's best year, Reggie Ball had a 44.4% completion rate. Calvin had 76 receptions that year AND THE REST OF THE TEAM COMBINED had 59 receptions. That is just crazy.

In each of his 3 years with Calvin, Reggie Ball was under 50% completion rate EVERY YEAR. And I'm not one to blame the QB for everything. The one bit of credit that I'll give to Reggie Ball was that he got the ball IN THE VICINITY of Calvin Johnson, and then Megatron did the rest. I don't think there are many Calvin Johnson GaTech highlights where he is NOT adjusting to the ball in the air.

And that's not to detract from Fitzpatrick He had tremendous stats. And I can't pinpoint this, but I just FELT like I was more amazed by what I saw Calvin do than what I saw Larry do. AT THE TIME. Clearly, they are both great players, I just felt like Calvin had to do so much more on his own to come down with the ball. And, yes, I played (slow) receiver in Pop Warner/high school, so WR skills really catch my eye.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Look, those are BY FAR Pitt's two most famous football alums (though there have been a couple others who had awesome NFL careers), but I think the point is that with SO MANY Miami greats (far more than 2), the complete omission of any Miami alums is more obvious.

Dorsett I could say "yes", he actually led his team to a national championship. Marino was a HOF player in the NFL, but I'm not sure that I'd call him one of the 20 best college football players of all time.
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TheOriginalCane said:
I'd put Calvin Johnson on the list ahead of Larry Fitzgerald. Sorry. And I watched both of them play Miami.

Calvin Johnson was just stunningly good. That one pass he caught against Miami, I think the QB was just trying to throw the ball away, and Calvin stuck out one hand and palmed the ball. Jaw-dropping.
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i also remember meriweather chasing johnson down from behind. in hindsight that is incredibly impressive
 
Brooklyndee said:
Nah. Not even close when you define COLLEGIATE CAREERS. Calvin coming out of Georgia tech was like all them boys coming out of lsu. Horrible mismanagement. He definitely had some moments. But nowhere close to Fitzgerald. I'll look up stats to see if I'm remembering this accurately or not but I'm pretty sure I am.



So I just looked it up and he had better numbers than I thought. BUT 800 fresh and soph and 1200 jr. Opposed to 1000 fr 1600 soph for Larry. Both **** good considering underclassmen yrs on basic squads. But I'd still go Larry. He was dominant from the second he signed.
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I agree with your overall point. I'd take Fitzgerald over Megatron, but you're splitting hairs. Fitzgerald was route running and the best hands to ever catch a football...Calvin Johnson is one of - if not THE - most physically gifted humans to ever play the sport and a monster statistically.

Statistically, I'd just point to Megatron's unrivaled marketshare numbers. Pretty sure he's one of (if not THE) all-time leaders in marketshare for receptions, yards, and touchdowns during a college career. Imagine if he played with any type of QB above Reggie Ball.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I hear ya. And while I don't dispute any of that, I would just point out that Rod Rutherford was a consistently more-accurate and higher-rated QB for Fitz's two years compared to Reggie Ball for Calvin's 3 years. In Calvin's best year, Reggie Ball had a 44.4% completion rate. Calvin had 76 receptions that year AND THE REST OF THE TEAM COMBINED had 59 receptions. That is just crazy.

In each of his 3 years with Calvin, Reggie Ball was under 50% completion rate EVERY YEAR. And I'm not one to blame the QB for everything. The one bit of credit that I'll give to Reggie Ball was that he got the ball IN THE VICINITY of Calvin Johnson, and then Megatron did the rest. I don't think there are many Calvin Johnson GaTech highlights where he is NOT adjusting to the ball in the air.

And that's not to detract from Fitzpatrick He had tremendous stats. And I can't pinpoint this, but I just FELT like I was more amazed by what I saw Calvin do than what I saw Larry do. AT THE TIME. Clearly, they are both great players, I just felt like Calvin had to do so much more on his own to come down with the ball. And, yes, I played (slow) receiver in Pop Warner/high school, so WR skills really catch my eye.
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reggie ******* ball. if he didnt throw it to calvin he was throwing it out of bounds.
 
BoxingRobes said:
I agree with your overall point. I'd take Fitzgerald over Megatron, but you're splitting hairs. Fitzgerald was route running and the best hands to ever catch a football...Calvin Johnson is one of - if not THE - most physically gifted humans to ever play the sport and a monster statistically.

Statistically, I'd just point to Megatron's unrivaled marketshare numbers. Pretty sure he's one of (if not THE) all-time leaders in marketshare for receptions, yards, and touchdowns during a college career. Imagine if he played with any type of QB above Reggie Ball.
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i still put charles rogers as a collegiate player over both of them

 
Stats02 said:
Obviously, he is the GOAT linebacker for the pros, but I also think Ray Lewis is one of the best linebackers of all time for the college level. I just don't think he had the college career of other linebackers, so he's not on my list according to the requirements. I would still take him over almost any other linebacker at the college level. He was that good.
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Again, I'm not even talking about the NFL. I'm talking about college. Both guys had 3 great years and were dominant BOTH in college and the NFL from their first years at each level. Immediate impact.

Now, each one has unique aspects. Butkus was probably one of the last great two-way players, playing both OL and LB. But he was great at both. Back then, you couldn't play as a freshman, so he dominated as a true sophomore, junior, and senior. The Bears drafted him at #3 overall (and Gale Sayers at #4 overall!) and he immediately defined the linebacker role in the NFL. Butkus finished SIXTH and THIRD in the Heisman balloting during his last 2 years.

Ray Lewis, as almost everyone knows, was a slightly less well-known recruit due to his academics, and he joined Miami late in the spring as a signee. Again, he made an immediate impact as a true freshman and people talk about what a team leader he was, even as an 18 year old. Three great seasons, true freshman, sophomore, and junior. Immediately changed the fortunes of the Ravens. Actually was the runner-up for the Butkus Award (to Kevin Hardy).

I realize that some LBs may have won national championships in their time too, but these two guys dominated for three consecutive years. Just fantastic.
 
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ben said:
i also remember meriweather chasing johnson down from behind. in hindsight that is incredibly impressive
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Yeah, Calvin was big and strong, which were his key attributes over "pure foot speed". He frequently bullied DBs in order to make his receptions. Soooo impressive.
 
Pentagon Cane said:
Luke Luechly had 532 tackles in 3 seasons. That's not a misprint. Never seen anything like him at the college level.

LoL, Ray Lewis had just as many tackles as Bosworth in 3 seasons and Ray did not start until the last 5 games of his freshman season.
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I call this being "Kurt Angle"...you are just so good immediately...its unbelievable...you look like a Hall of Famer the second they step on the football field. No question "phenom" as soon as you see them.

There are two "Kurt Angles" at linebacker. Ray Lewis and Luke Kuechly.
 
BoxingRobes said:
I call this being "Kurt Angle"...you are just so good immediately...its unbelievable...you look like a Hall of Famer the second they step on the football field. No question "phenom" as soon as you see them.

There are two "Kurt Angles" at linebacker. Ray Lewis and Luke Kuechly.
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If you look at Luke, he was on a similar trajectory as Ray until he retired early.

To me a greatest of all-time college player is going to be a Hall of Fame pro. Dominant at any level.

Guys not even discussed are Lee Roy Selmon and Lee Roy Jordan. Jordan had 31 tackles in the Orange Bowl his senior year.
 
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