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How Do We Fix The O-Line?

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Ethnicsands said:
How is the star thing still confusing to you?

The measure of talent is talent. Stars reflect other people’s assessment of the future potential of kids we are recruiting. They’re directionally accurate but wrong in the individual instance often enough. And they do not reflect our staff’s evals, in any case. That is why evaluations matter so much. Because once a kid gets here, it doesn’t matter what he was ranked. We find out what they can do. They may outperform or underperform or live up to expectations.

So when @PalyCane points out our recruiting for ‘20 is underwhelming on OL right now, stars are an indication. But when a kid gets here and isn’t good, it’s pointless to insist he is talented because he was given so many stars as a prospect. Maybe he was overrated. maybe we blew the EVALUATION. Maybe he’s a bad fit for our system. Maybe Florida evaluated kids better than we do.

Stars look forward, worth whatever you want to think. Looking backwards, you see what you've got. Most here have seen our OL over years now and noticed we don’t got what we need.
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You must be confusing yourself because you are the one bringing up Zion’s star rating.

We have guys very early in their development. They may never develop. They may end up in the NFL like so many of our OL who were branded on here as talentless scrubs after tough losses.

Anybody making proclamations on their careers this early is ignoring the developmental nature of the position.
 
Ethnicsands said:
Yep. But also, diamonds in the rough are supposed to take a few years to polish. Wtf are we doing throwing them out there before they’re ready?

Our OL recruiting, evaluations, development and coaching has been a disaster.
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DMoney said:
You must be confusing yourself because you are the one bringing up Zion’s star rating.

We have guys very early in their development. They may never develop. They may end up in the NFL like so many of our OL who were branded on here as talentless scrubs after tough losses.

Anybody making proclamations on their careers this early is ignoring the developmental nature of the position.
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I know I'm preaching to the converted but you're both right about the developmental aspect of OL. No sense rehashing how we got here with Searels and Richt. But given how early Barry is in the process, the challenge is how to jumpstart the process without tanking the season. We're not going to get high ceiling types if we don't show a marked improvement this year.

I believe we have bite the bullet and take to long view which by definition is going to take a couple of years to get them ready. But this year, we still have to field a team. And judging based on last night, we have to throw them a life preserver. If not, we can expect more of the same.

I'm not an X's and O's guy, I just recognize the importance of the line (on both sides). All I keep hearing about is we can scheme around it, chip with the tight ends, run the spread, etc. It sounds like people are guessing, throwing things against the wall to see what gets them the most 👍. I know you can't artificially speed up the clock. But is there anything that can be realistically done to solidify the line while giving them a chance to develop.
 
NorthEastCane said:
I know I'm preaching to the converted but you're both right about the developmental aspect of OL. No sense rehashing how we got here with Searels and Richt. But given how early Barry is in the process, the challenge is how to jumpstart the process without tanking the season. We're not going to get high ceiling types if we don't show a marked improvement this year.

I believe we have bite the bullet and take to long view which by definition is going to take a couple of years to get them ready. But this year, we still have to field a team. And judging based on last night, we have to throw them a life preserver. If not, we can expect more of the same.

I'm not an X's and O's guy, I just recognize the importance of the line (on both sides). All I keep hearing about is we can scheme around it, chip with the tight ends, run the spread, etc. It sounds like people are guessing, throwing things against the wall to see what gets them the most 👍. I know you can't artificially speed up the clock. But is there anything that can be realistically done to solidify the line while giving them a chance to develop.
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Watch the Cleveland Browns games after Week 8 when Freddie Kinchens (the current coach) became the team’s interim OC.
 
DMoney said:
You must be confusing yourself because you are the one bringing up Zion’s star rating.

We have guys very early in their development. They may never develop. They may end up in the NFL like so many of our OL who were branded on here as talentless scrubs after tough losses.

Anybody making proclamations on their careers this early is ignoring the developmental nature of the position.
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It looks to me like you are trying too hard to win a rhetorical argument at the expense of logic and the obvious reality.

I brought up Zion’s star rating AND his other offers because it is absolutely notable that we are starting a true frosh at LT who had no other major offers, was a 2!* kid, and was just 235 lbs less than a year ago. A kid who got abused by UF, moreover. If you don’t see why that is notable, I really don’t know how to discuss any of this with you. It doesn’t mean he can’t develop or succeed eventually. This is not that complex.

Secondly, and for the 100th time, for that matter, it doesn’t prove the talent of the OL we sent out yesterday that Zion might be in the NFL in 5 years. We played the game yesteray, not in 2024. You keep talking about nfl creds without even once pausing to acknowledge that it matters a lot whether a kid is game ready or not. I certainly have not made a proclamation about Zion’s career. To the contrary, I defended him in another thread from critics. He wasn’t ready. Not his fault he was asked to start before he was ready. That’s on our staff, and reflects the lack of game ready talent on our roster.

You can define talent however you want, I guess. For me, it means talent at the time you are playing for us, that game, that day. Zion’s talent yesterday doesn’t become magically higher if he develops into a high caliber kid down the line. We did not have enough OL talent to play effectively against UF. That is obvious.
 
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DMoney said:
This is the inconsistency I keep seeing. If the measure of talent is recruiting interest from other programs, we should be in better shape than most. We have four 4*s and a borderline 4* in our top 8. These guys had legit SEC and Big 10 offers.

Last night was a perfect example. Our OL had a higher recruiting ranking than UF’s OL and DL. The biggest difference was age. UF starts three guys on its DL from the class of 2015. That’s five summer weight programs. Their OL, while unimpressive, was also older.

Watching the tackles in person, I saw strength issues and horrible timing with the snap. The latter is something that can improve significantly with experience. The strength can also come with the right body type, which I think they have.

Will it come together? Who knows. They aren’t there right now and there are no guarantees they will improve. But I expected major growing pains at tackle, and my only disappointment is that we didn’t do more to help them.
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Our problem
Ethnicsands said:
How is the star thing still confusing to you?

The measure of talent is talent. Stars reflect other people’s assessment of the future potential of kids we are recruiting. They’re directionally accurate but wrong in the individual instance often enough. And they do not reflect our staff’s evals, in any case. That is why evaluations matter so much. Because once a kid gets here, it doesn’t matter what he was ranked. We find out what they can do. They may outperform or underperform or live up to expectations.

So when @PalyCane points out our recruiting for ‘20 is underwhelming on OL right now, stars are an indication. But when a kid gets here and isn’t good, it’s pointless to insist he is talented because he was given so many stars as a prospect. Maybe he was overrated. maybe we blew the EVALUATION. Maybe he’s a bad fit for our system. Maybe Florida evaluated kids better than we do.

Stars look forward, worth whatever you want to think. Looking backwards, you see what you've got. Most here have seen our OL over years now and noticed we don’t got what we need.
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Yeah, I'm not sure what point D$ is making.

1. His OP seems to indicate we're talented enough on OL, it's just that our guys need experience. I don't know what he's basing that on. Last night we saw both tackles get manhandled. And that's all we know about them right now. We know that they are capable of being manhandled.

Maybe/hopefully (I'm rooting for this as hard as anyone) D$ is correct and they become cornerstone tackles in years to come. But that's pure speculation. Sure maybe his statement is correct that: "(they can) improve (their timing) significantly with experience. The strength can also come with the right body type, which I think they have." Or maybe not. There's no evidence right now that'll be the case. Only hopeful thinking.

2. Our two best OL from 2017/2018) are the two by far the highest rated guys by the metric of how many/all top-10/20 teams wanted them. It's not a perfect metric, in that no one bats 100%, but it's the best one I'm aware of. Of the four highest rated guys, Donaldson and Sciafe are players. Herbert and Reed haven't shown anything (though Reed might). So we're 2 of 4 with the highest rated guys.

In terms of the other guys not in that top four, we're 0-fer or maybe .5-fer (Gaynor) based on last night from the pool of (Hillery, Dykstra, Gaynor, and Campbell out of the 2017/2018 guys . We have guys we had to play last night. But except for Donaldson and Sciafe (for the 2 out of 4 top guys) the three guys from the lower ranked group were varying degrees of adequate (Gaynor) to terrible (Campbell (and Nelson from 2019)). These are the guys that few if any top-10 teams wanted. Maybe things change as those guys mature (and maybe Reed matures as well giving us 3 out of 4 for the top highly sought after recruits). But right now it's more wishing on D$'s part (and mine as well) than anything evidenced based.

And remember, that in excusing Campbell's terrible performance by saying he needs time to mature it is also the case that Sciafe...the more desired recruit from the same class...played better as a true Fresh and certainly last night. And the same is true of Donaldson's fresh and soph year. Again, while not 100% certain, recruiting from the pool of the most highly sought after guys will yield the greatest probability of not having to witness what we saw last night.

D$ every year you have a tendency to project the potential and future of our guys beyond what the evidence suggests. And then, after the fact you acknowledge the problems that you had previously argued away, as you're doing now. We don't want our OL to come form a pool of Hillery, Dykstra, Gaynor, Campbell and Nelson. It's not clear that any of them are top-10 team caliber OL. We want our OL to come from a pool of Donaldson, Sciafe, Reed and Herbert. At least from the latter group we're batting :500 in terms of top-10 team OL. with the former group we're batting .5 out of 4 (nic Nelson as he's a true fresh) so far.

3. This then should all culminate with an honest discussion about the probability we can build an OL worthy of our top-10 aspirations by recruiting guys like the lower two ranked recruits in the 2020 class. D$ thinks we can return to top-10 status by recruiting those guys, who are similar in terms of their (lack of) desirability by top-10 programs to guys like Hillery, Dykstra, Gaynor, Campbell and Nelson. I do not. Yes, some of those guys can occasionally pan out. But our experience in recent years, and so far this year, informs us that it's a low probability way of ending up with a top-10 quality OL compared to getting the Donaldson's and Sciafe's.

Again, it's not about "stars" per se, it's about the guys who coaches of top-10 programs think are good. There's been zero evidence that our recent OL coaches are smarter than top-10 team OL coaches, and better at identifying future stars out of the less desired guys. It's about probability, probility and probability.

4. Now what if we can't reliably and consistently get the Donaldson's and Sciafe's? Then we can't run the offensive system Enos is trying to run. Which I think is the case.It's not a fit given our perennial OL woes. But that's a whole 'nother story
 
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WhatTheHell said:
Serious schematic/personnel discussions only.

Short of building a time machine and making guys like Evan Neal sign at gunpoint the last 3 seasons, what are our options?

1. Any chance Cleveland Reed be put at guard and Scaife/Donaldson be kicked out to Tackle? Are either of them versatile enough to slide out? How ready is Reed?

2. Herbert and Hillery should be given snaps vs UNC without a doubt. See how they respond in-game. I know people use this line a lot, but this time, it might actually be impossible to play worse than our tackles did last night.

3. Enos needs to go back to the drawing board. Spread the field, wider splits, stop trying to power run people like you’re at Bama. I believe our best runs of the night were made by DeeJay breaking 35 tackles out of the wildcat. We’re not bulldozing anyone in traditional offensive schemes.

4. Enos needs to help the tackles more. These guys were on islands a majority of the night. I think I saw some chipping and releasing toward the end, but let’s keep a tight end or a back in more often to help. Late in the 4th quarter, for example, DeeJay had one of the most beautiful blitz pickups I’ve ever seen.

5. I’d say more screens as an initial reaction to this issue, but I feel like we threw several.


So can we reconfigure the line and move a guard out to tackle? If not, Hillery and Herber have to get snaps vs UNC early. Find someone who can even put up a fight.

We allowed 16 tackles for loss, 11 sacks, and 5 QB hurries. Something has to change if we want any success in conference this year.

What’s your solution?
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Let them play their *** out of it. That carousell don't work. If it didnt work before the season during Spring Summer and Fall, what makes you think it going to change during the start of the season?
 
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scrantoncane said:
Per Athelon, UF has No 3 DL unit in SEC. obviously the SEC is a better conference than the ACC.

The ACC DL rankings we face are as follows:

UNC 8
VT 7
UVA 9
GT 14
Pitt 6
FSU 4
Lville 11
Duke 10

We simply aren’t gonna face that talent again. Taken in conjunction with a freshman seeing live bullets for first time and a new OC/system, and It was a recipe for disaster.

OL shouldn’t be as much of an issue moving forward, I hope.
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The offensive line got completely obliterated by what is probably the best DL we will face. It will merely struggle mightily vs. the rest.

Leaving aside the recruiting issue, the entire playbook has to be written- and plays called- around the fact that our tackles are totally useless.
 
Anyone suggest we bring in Soldinger sitting on Kehoe's shoulders to fix the problem yet? They only count as one "legend" added to the staff if Soldy's feet never touch the ground.
 
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After 24 hours of rigorous thinking and projectile vomiting here's what I'm officially suggesting/expecting in practice this week:

LT Nelson
LG Donaldson
C Gaynor
RG Campbell
RT Scaife
 
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You can mask one young/inexperienced/ inefficient tackle. Can't mask 2. When one End was being chipped the other end was smoking our other OT. Imo Nelson looked better than Campbell. Campbell had what 2-3 false starts and 2 holds if I recall correctly. That doesn't include sacks. Kick Scaife to RT and continue to let Nelson be assisted.
 
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WhatTheHell said:
Serious schematic/personnel discussions only.

Short of building a time machine and making guys like Evan Neal sign at gunpoint the last 3 seasons, what are our options?

1. Any chance Cleveland Reed be put at guard and Scaife/Donaldson be kicked out to Tackle? Are either of them versatile enough to slide out? How ready is Reed?

2. Herbert and Hillery should be given snaps vs UNC without a doubt. See how they respond in-game. I know people use this line a lot, but this time, it might actually be impossible to play worse than our tackles did last night.

3. Enos needs to go back to the drawing board. Spread the field, wider splits, stop trying to power run people like you’re at Bama. I believe our best runs of the night were made by DeeJay breaking 35 tackles out of the wildcat. We’re not bulldozing anyone in traditional offensive schemes.

4. Enos needs to help the tackles more. These guys were on islands a majority of the night. I think I saw some chipping and releasing toward the end, but let’s keep a tight end or a back in more often to help. Late in the 4th quarter, for example, DeeJay had one of the most beautiful blitz pickups I’ve ever seen.

5. I’d say more screens as an initial reaction to this issue, but I feel like we threw several.


So can we reconfigure the line and move a guard out to tackle? If not, Hillery and Herber have to get snaps vs UNC early. Find someone who can even put up a fight.

We allowed 16 tackles for loss, 11 sacks, and 5 QB hurries. Something has to change if we want any success in conference this year.

What’s your solution?
Click to expand...
@OriginalCanesCanesCanes the shamelessness is always surprising.
 
WhatTheHell said:
Serious schematic/personnel discussions only.

Short of building a time machine and making guys like Evan Neal sign at gunpoint the last 3 seasons, what are our options?

1. Any chance Cleveland Reed be put at guard and Scaife/Donaldson be kicked out to Tackle? Are either of them versatile enough to slide out? How ready is Reed?

2. Herbert and Hillery should be given snaps vs UNC without a doubt. See how they respond in-game. I know people use this line a lot, but this time, it might actually be impossible to play worse than our tackles did last night.

3. Enos needs to go back to the drawing board. Spread the field, wider splits, stop trying to power run people like you’re at Bama. I believe our best runs of the night were made by DeeJay breaking 35 tackles out of the wildcat. We’re not bulldozing anyone in traditional offensive schemes.

4. Enos needs to help the tackles more. These guys were on islands a majority of the night. I think I saw some chipping and releasing toward the end, but let’s keep a tight end or a back in more often to help. Late in the 4th quarter, for example, DeeJay had one of the most beautiful blitz pickups I’ve ever seen.

5. I’d say more screens as an initial reaction to this issue, but I feel like we threw several.


So can we reconfigure the line and move a guard out to tackle? If not, Hillery and Herber have to get snaps vs UNC early. Find someone who can even put up a fight.

We allowed 16 tackles for loss, 11 sacks, and 5 QB hurries. Something has to change if we want any success in conference this year.

What’s your solution?
Click to expand...

First things first, Get rid of that CLAP snap B.S.

Second, now that the Oline coach has plenty of film to correct the issues and mistakes let him go to work the real coaching starts now.
If the kid's don't progress and get better find their replacements via transfer portal or recruiting or and evaluate the coach.
Now, as far as coach Enos goes I would like to see him create more plays spreading the field with quick throws. Here's an idea that I think would work great. Spread the field with Jordan or Mallory on the outside and take advantage of them out there and throw some screens to JT4 and Harley. Besides that, I want to see less of Martell and more of Wiggins, Hightower, Harley, and Etc. We need to give these kids more snaps regardless of the risk of a Martell transfer. On another note, I'm not a big fan of head fakes or dancing when running routes at the receiver position. I've seen a few times where some of our receivers start doing head fakes and dance at the line instead of trusting their speed to create space. My thoughts are if your bigger than your opposition use your body and positioning to beat your man. If you're smaller and got speed trust your speed quick feet to beat your defender of the breaks.

To be completely honest, I think this is going to have to be a whole offensive effort to help the O-line, there's absolutely no subsitute for experience except let them play and coach them. That's why I say the effort will have to come from ENOS and the whole coaching staff.
Overall, I feel confident that we got great coaches that know how to adjust and not just create excuses! We have almost two weeks to prepare for UNC so I am more than confident that this team is ready to turn it around.


[]_[] Go Canes!
 
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