Development

[Ethnicsands]

Great answer. I’ll try to partially rebut my own point by saying, for all those words … ****, I don’t know. lol. But, there’s debate as to whether it’s unlearned or just the ability to process mounds of information quickly. I can say that because no one knows. I mentioned Gladwell … he has a book “Blink” that touches on “thin-slicing” the “unlearned” IT ( though he never goes all in and says it‘s “unlearned”), he’s then critiqued by actual scientists …

In Think!: Why Crucial Decisions Can't Be Made in the Blink of an Eye (Simon and Schuster, 2006), Michael LeGault argues that "Blinklike" judgments are not a substitute for critical thinking. He criticizes Gladwell for propagating unscientific notions:


Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman, author of Thinking, Fast and Slow which speaks to rationality's advantages over intuition, says:


In an article titled "Understanding Unconscious Intelligence and Intuition: Blink and Beyond", Lois Isenman agrees with Gladwell that the unconscious mind has a surprising knack for 'thinking without thinking' but argues that its ability to integrate many pieces of information simultaneously provides a much more inclusive explanation than thin-slicing. She writes:

Great discussion.

I think the criticism of gladwell is mostly misplaced jealousy by ‘experts’ who lack his commercial instincts or writing talent. Kahneman is right that gladwell himself doesn’t claim what people blame him for. And the idea he’s doing a disservice by discussing these ideas openly is crazy. I enjoy his books, but I know they’re pop lit, not academic tomes.

I personally think there are multiple factors in play in this and as usual it’s not all thin slice or holistic. There are a lot of signals we pick up but don’t learn to talk about, and gladwell understands how the mind can grasp them but not necessarily explain them. He also understands, correctly, that logical analysis almost inevitably is built on excluding some variables and signals, and so can miss important inputs. I thought his discussion of the difference between panicking and choking was good in this respect.

But in any case, there is a growing body of science around personality, and much of it is an effort to quantify and define what some people can intuit - which people will run through a wall, which kids will fold up and quit. The DOD does research on this, too. If you can’t tolerate error, you need the special forces training programs to rule out those who can’t make it through. But in most endeavors, just being better than others at making predictions is worth a lot.

 

[CaneDog66]

Finally a great discussion thread without the usual suspects of name calling and chest thumping. Just a good old fashion debate on development. Thanks @Ethnicsands

 

[Tetragrammaton Cane]

Great discussion.

I think the criticism of gladwell is mostly misplaced jealousy by ‘experts’ who lack his commercial instincts or writing talent. Kahneman is right that gladwell himself doesn’t claim what people blame him for. And the idea he’s doing a disservice by discussing these ideas openly is crazy. I enjoy his books, but I know they’re pop lit, not academic tomes.

I personally think there are multiple factors in play in this and as usual it’s not all thin slice or holistic. There are a lot of signals we pick up but don’t learn to talk about, and gladwell understands how the mind can grasp them but not necessarily explain them. He also understands, correctly, that logical analysis almost inevitably is built on excluding some variables and signals, and so can miss important inputs. I thought his discussion of the difference between panicking and choking was good in this respect.

But in any case, there is a growing body of science around personality, and much of it is an effort to quantify and define what some people can intuit - which people will run through a wall, which kids will fold up and quit. The DOD does research on this, too. If you can’t tolerate error, you need the special forces training programs to rule out those who can’t make it through. But in most endeavors, just being better than others at making predictions is worth a lot.

I’m a Gladwell fan and agree with your post completely. He details the difficulty of those predictions in his story about the first congressional Medal of Honor winner of WWII, Sandy Nininger.

Personality Plus

ANNALS OF PSYCHOLOGY about personality tests… Writer tells about Alexander (Sandy) Nininger, who was posthumously awarded the first Congressional Medal …

www.newyorker.com

…Nininger, who was posthumously awarded the first Congressional Medal of Honor in the Second World War for feats of bravery during fighting in Bataan. Writer notes that there was no way to predict that Ninninger would turn into a fierce soldier under combat conditions. He was quiet by nature, loved the theatre, and used to sit in his commanding officer’s room drinking tea and listening to Tchaikovsky… Over the course of the last century, psychology has been consumed with the search for a psychological instrument that would allow you to get to the heart of someone’s personality.…​

 

[Tetragrammaton Cane]

Finally a great discussion thread without the usual suspects of name calling and chest thumping. Just a good old fashion debate on development. Thanks @Ethnicsands

The thread on Cane v Cane 86 v 91 v 01, etc was great as well.

OT/ 86 Miami vs 01 Miami

This is what I grew up on. I’m only 20 so I just hear from my dad. But he says the two best miami teams ever were 89 and 91 so I’ll ride with that. Sonny Lubicks 89-91 Defenses defined Ruthlessness...Baddest *** DC in UM History....His Defenses were the definition of UM FB....

www.canesinsight.com

 

[Rellyrell]

I've written a lot about evaluations, so wanted to try to focus on development, since I hear back a lot that the issue isn't recruiting, it's development. I'm not saying evaluations haven't been an issue, I'm just focusing on the development piece here.

The interesting thing to me is that guys 'developed' all the way through the 'dark ages' at UM. Some guys made it to the NFL. Some guys 'develop' at random schools without serious programs. But then top recruits came to UM and didn't 'develop.' What's the explanation?

IMO it comes back to culture. The kids we had who 'developed' were likely the self-motivated kids. The kids we had who didn't 'develop' as well were kids who were sucked in by the Country Club Coker, Ice Cream Social, Call it what you want culture. (Or perhaps we were just recruiting too many kids for whom that culture was appealing?)

We clearly need a more competitive, mission-driven culture like we had when we were winning, and like other top programs have. But for the purpose of this discussion, I'm interested in knowing whether people think the 'high recruits' who don't progress in mediocre cultures would do well with better cultures ... or just wash out faster in them? Would kids who aren't self-motivated but have athletic talent succeed at Alabama, because culture? Or would they just never get recruited by Alabama, because Saban knows what personality traits he's looking for, and can identify kids who will do the work? Are we missing a screen in recruiting ... or is it really 'development'? If the latter, can we get to the bottom of what this means?

@LuCane; @Rellyrell

This is the type of discussions I like the see in the off season.

Culture cannot be emphasized enough. Some fans say u need to recruit better, thats y we’re at where we’re at. OK, let’s discuss: We just played Little Oklahoma in a bowl game and got beat. Just looking at a 10 yr window (2011 - 2020):

-Miami: #33, #10, #14, #12, #27, #22, #12, #8, #27, and #16th ranked classes.
Avg class: 16th in the nation

-Lil Oklahoma: #25, #31, #31, #27, #40, #45, #38, #34, #38, and #40th ranked classes.
Avg. class: 35th in the nation

Yet, we’ve gone 76-50 during this time w/ one divisional crown, one bowl victory, one NY6 bowl invite.

Meanwhile, Lil Oklahoma has gone 89-37 during this same period, w/ 2 divisional crowns, 1 conference crown, 8 bowl victories, 3 NY6 bowl invites.

So it can’t just be all about recruiting. Coaching matters. I think @Tetragrammaton Cane said it best in his post; it’s a combination of things. Two forms of development:
1. Are they stronger, faster now than they were before signing, or are they are about the same?

2. How’s the IQ? Are their eyes more disciplined today than yesterday? Are they more proactive or reactive from film?

Of course the player’s want is key, evaluation is key, but coaching matters. The culture matters, but the culture starts & stops at the top.

I put it like this: once upon a time I use to body build; not professionally or even amateur, but I was simply tired of being, at that time, 155 lbs. OK, so I hit the gym, meet a guy who’s in phenomenal shape. We hook up; I was there every day, dedicated, following his lead. Results? Not so much; got stronger & more muscle definition, but didn’t bulk up. OK, find another guy who’s also in phenomenal shape. He sees me lifting & goes, u know let me show u a better way to lift to maximize ur muscle growth. Started working out w/ him, he puts me on a totally different diet regimen & boom, I grow immediately (& yes, it was all natural. Lol)

Point being, despite my dedication & drive, I needed guidance to take me to the next level. One guy got me stronger, sure, but the other guy got me the look (which I completely tricked off once I got married. Lol....but on my way back to those days)

I’m sure part of our development or lack thereof is due to poor evaluations, not getting the right guys to fit our system. I’ve also questioned what “is” our identity, and maybe that’s another problem. For instance, as a note, we’re now running a tempo version of a spread offense where mobility from our QBs r important; yet, we recruited two Pro-Style QBs in back-to-back classes. Now I know pro-style doesn’t mean lack of mobility, but typically the best QBs in a spread are Dual QBs & the data backs that up if u look at the most successful QBs since 2010 per 247. Regardless, the ? is are they a true fit for what we’re running?

I’ve heard hom....fans, say in defending Coach X “I’ll trust our coaching staff’s evaluation over some keyboard warrior.” Well, we’re a habitual 7-9 win team based upon Coach X, Y, & ax’s evaluations over the past 10 yrs, alone.

At the end of the day, it’s not all about x’s & o’s or it’s not all about Jimmy & Joe’s when it comes to development; it’s a combination of the two. Players have to play, but it’s the coaches job to put them in the most optimal position to succeed, and sometimes a player being constantly played out of position can f w/ their psyche. Also, if a certain standard is not maintained, it’s much easier to loaf or not be as dedicated.

Jmo, of course.

 

[Lazarre]

I always felt that the development hit its ceiling here because we lack consistent competition at ever position within the team.

 

[Tit-e-skr]

All your Manny questions regarding development and recruiting will be answered Sept 4th. Manny has been here as DC and HC long enough to have an impact on the team and it’s future.

Manny is returning a lot more starters to work with than Bama.

 

[Tony Perps]

Just went for the heck of it and re-watched Ray Lewis UM highlights. (Also NFL.)

What an amazing tackler he was. Instincts, lateral ability, can shed blockers, diagnose plays, can find ball, all great. But dammit the guy always made the play, whether it was a hit, or a wrap, or even a grab. His hands were steel. If he grabbed you, you were caught.

And say what you want, he wasn't 'development' - dude was balling out in his first game at Miami a few weeks after he arrived on campus.

He had DESIRE.

I don't know what Butch would say he looked for - I'd like to know. But IMO guys who have that desire, will work out more than the others.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

So maybe it's not clear the point I'm making here. Coaches have a vital role to play, but the RESPONSIBILITY AND CREDIT for how well a player develops is on the PLAYER.

Nobody is developed. They develop themselves using their coaches as tools along the path.

The difference is the mindset. You either believe your success/failure is someone else's fault, or you man up and take responsibility for your own self, never leaving your fate up to anyone else but yourself. It's a big difference.

This whole theory of yours is self-defeating and contradictory.

The truth is it is on both the player and the coach. I mean, are you actually saying player development is solely the responsibility of the player, and not the coach getting paid six (or seven) figures to maximize each player's potential as part of his job? And shouldn't these coaches also "man up" and be accountable?

As far as developing yourself using coaches as tools, you can't sharpen a knife with a box of crayons. If an athlete's coaches are **** fools and consistently teach the athlete subpar technique, he can work as hard as he wants at it, but he'll just be really good at doing it the wrong way.

Accountability is great, but it is a two way street. Yes, players need to be accountable for their own development. But so do their coaches.

 

[SWFLHurricane]

Great comment. This is exactly the discussion I wanted to have in this thread. I agree with you and think that the better evaluators know how to see this in kids. They may or may not even be able to articulate what they're looking for, but they know it when they see it. I'm sure Butch would be able to talk about this. @caneinorlando may have a view here.

One of the things that's been nagging on me on this topic is people love to talk about the high rated kids we get who under-perform (we all know this list). But then we know we've also gotten some high rated kids who performed (Duke Johnson, e.g.) ... and some lower rated kids who did relatively well (Rousseau, Rayshawn, Jaquan). So what gives? @Rellyrell and I were talkimbout this in a thread recently, and he's asking me how it can be that all our top kids fail, it's gotta be our 'development', because the ratings services can't all be wrong all the time.

Of course, they're not wrong 'all the time.' But it could well be the case that we are too often winning highly rated kids that other top schools de-prioritize ... and maybe that in itself is a sign of what they screen for that we don't screen for? It could also be a self-selection thing, where kids who value work ethic are more drawn to programs that exude it, and the country club ice cream social atmosphere we've had for too long repels some kids we should want. Becomes self-fulfilling, I guess.

Anyhow, long winded response but interested in other takes.

Butch just had an eye for talent like no one else....Butch gave zero Fs about the * system...(alot different today)....Nothing he hated worse than if a recruit started that "I wanna start"...and "Whats the depth like" BS....If you weren't ready to compete...then he had absolutely no time for you....

 

[TheOriginalCane]

All your Manny questions regarding development and recruiting will be answered Sept 4th. Manny has been here as DC and HC long enough to have an impact on the team and it’s future.

Manny is returning a lot more starters to work with than Bama.

Go fvck yourself, mope. The only thing we will know on September 4th is whether we are better than Alabama.

 

[DTP]

This is the type of discussions I like the see in the off season.

Culture cannot be emphasized enough. Some fans say u need to recruit better, thats y we’re at where we’re at. OK, let’s discuss: We just played Little Oklahoma in a bowl game and got beat. Just looking at a 10 yr window (2011 - 2020):

-Miami: #33, #10, #14, #12, #27, #22, #12, #8, #27, and #16th ranked classes.
Avg class: 16th in the nation

-Lil Oklahoma: #25, #31, #31, #27, #40, #45, #38, #34, #38, and #40th ranked classes.
Avg. class: 35th in the nation

Yet, we’ve gone 76-50 during this time w/ one divisional crown, one bowl victory, one NY6 bowl invite.

Meanwhile, Lil Oklahoma has gone 89-37 during this same period, w/ 2 divisional crowns, 1 conference crown, 8 bowl victories, 3 NY6 bowl invites.

So it can’t just be all about recruiting. Coaching matters. I think @Tetragrammaton Cane said it best in his post; it’s a combination of things. Two forms of development:
1. Are they stronger, faster now than they were before signing, or are they are about the same?

2. How’s the IQ? Are their eyes more disciplined today than yesterday? Are they more proactive or reactive from film?

Of course the player’s want is key, evaluation is key, but coaching matters. The culture matters, but the culture starts & stops at the top.

I put it like this: once upon a time I use to body build; not professionally or even amateur, but I was simply tired of being, at that time, 155 lbs. OK, so I hit the gym, meet a guy who’s in phenomenal shape. We hook up; I was there every day, dedicated, following his lead. Results? Not so much; got stronger & more muscle definition, but didn’t bulk up. OK, find another guy who’s also in phenomenal shape. He sees me lifting & goes, u know let me show u a better way to lift to maximize ur muscle growth. Started working out w/ him, he puts me on a totally different diet regimen & boom, I grow immediately (& yes, it was all natural. Lol)

Point being, despite my dedication & drive, I needed guidance to take me to the next level. One guy got me stronger, sure, but the other guy got me the look (which I completely tricked off once I got married. Lol....but on my way back to those days)

I’m sure part of our development or lack thereof is due to poor evaluations, not getting the right guys to fit our system. I’ve also questioned what “is” our identity, and maybe that’s another problem. For instance, as a note, we’re now running a tempo version of a spread offense where mobility from our QBs r important; yet, we recruited two Pro-Style QBs in back-to-back classes. Now I know pro-style doesn’t mean lack of mobility, but typically the best QBs in a spread are Dual QBs & the data backs that up if u look at the most successful QBs since 2010 per 247. Regardless, the ? is are they a true fit for what we’re running?

I’ve heard hom....fans, say in defending Coach X “I’ll trust our coaching staff’s evaluation over some keyboard warrior.” Well, we’re a habitual 7-9 win team based upon Coach X, Y, & ax’s evaluations over the past 10 yrs, alone.

At the end of the day, it’s not all about x’s & o’s or it’s not all about Jimmy & Joe’s when it comes to development; it’s a combination of the two. Players have to play, but it’s the coaches job to put them in the most optimal position to succeed, and sometimes a player being constantly played out of position can f w/ their psyche. Also, if a certain standard is not maintained, it’s much easier to loaf or not be as dedicated.

Jmo, of course.

This topic comes up quite a bit when talking Miami football. Why are teams that recruit at a lower level more successful? It’s a few reasons and they’re really obvious when you look at them.

First and foremost, OKSU hired a known offensive innovator and QB specialist to be their head coach. With the game making a big shift towards offense over the last 10-15 years, that’s the smart move for a non traditional power program. The Cowboys have been lighting up scoreboards (and not always with NFL quarterbacks) while until 2020, Miami has been praying to hold their opponent under 20 points to have a chance to win. It used to be that a good defense could keep you in every game but nowadays when evenly matched teams play, it’s usually a shootout.

Secondly, of Miami’s 20-25 incoming freshman every year, how many stay in the program 4-5 years? Not just guys leaving for the draft either, guys transferring, guys getting kicked off the team, for a while we signed a bunch of guys who never even made it into school. So if you sign the 15th ranked recruiting class but a third of them are no longer with your program by the time they should be juniors and making significant contributions, is your class really still the 15th ranked class? Only if you’re doing gator mathz. So while one team has a steady stream of juniors and seniors who have been in the system for years and have the benefit of four years of strength and nutrition the other program is constantly plugging holes in their ship with stop gap transfers and unprepared underclassmen. It’s why Miami often struggles with ACC also-rans like Pitt and Virginia. They’re trotting out grown men who while maybe not as talented, are certainly not going to hurt themselves with stupid mistakes. They’re going to make you work to beat them and if you’re sloppy and have a bunch of turnovers and penalties, they’re going to win.

Lastly, (and you can consider this an extension of the first point) QB play here has been at best, mediocre. It’s the most important position in ANY sport and we’ve been behind the 8 ball there for a long time. Our best QB seasons in recent years would just be average for the Cowboys. Now most of this credit is to Gundy. He coaches one of the positions where development is paramount and his guys are always solid. Even if they’re not NFL caliber. Lots of position coaches in college football are just recruiters. Yes, there’s techniques that you can teach players but let’s be real, there’s no top secret coaching technique for running backs or defensive linemen. Quarterback is a different animal and having a legit QB coach is a big deal in college football.

 

[Tetragrammaton Cane]

…Yes, there’s techniques that you can teach players but let’s be real, there’s no top secret coaching technique for running backs or defensive linemen…

More than just QB. Coaching matters for every position group (I know, not exactly what you said…)

It‘s not that the techniques themselves are “top secret” it’s how they’re conveyed and how they resonate with people. The real “horse whisperer” types know what they’re doing; the others, not as much.

The term “football is a game of inches” is true for most disciplines in life. Inch more credibility, luck, intelligence, intuition, strength, insight…the list is long can make a tremendous difference on the ultimate output/performance. Degrees matter. Even among the elites, in any profession there are the ELITE of the elite that the others recognize. Good … have success once in a while. Great … have success more. Elite … have an extremely low failure rate, comparative to the other groups — with consistency.

Elite technical coaches see the little things that good, or even great coaches don’t see. Those little things lead to big results. @Rellyrell gave the example of his bodybuilding experience … it applies to every walk of life.

How the techniques are applied and in what order and in what volumes and with how much rest … matters.

 

[jw410]

There were some productive NFL players from the Golden era. Flowers. Allen Hurns. Walford. Duke. Dorsett. Stephen Morris has also hung around the league. Olivier Vernon. Sean Spence. Perryman. Travis Benjamin. Mike James. Lamar Miller. Deon Bush. Artie Burns. Rayshawn Jenkins. Ray-Ray Armstrong had a little stint in the NFL too. Malcolm Lewis was on the Fins practice squad for a while too. Chick. Corn Elder and Trent Harris were also freshman in his last year here.

(And I'll go to my grave that Eddie Johnson should have been a stud.)

Jenkins, Elder, Lamar, Bush, Horns, Perryman, Benjamin, Vernon, Flowers, Linder, and Duke

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

Just went for the heck of it and re-watched Ray Lewis UM highlights. (Also NFL.)

What an amazing tackler he was. Instincts, lateral ability, can shed blockers, diagnose plays, can find ball, all great. But dammit the guy always made the play, whether it was a hit, or a wrap, or even a grab. His hands were steel. If he grabbed you, you were caught.

And say what you want, he wasn't 'development' - dude was balling out in his first game at Miami a few weeks after he arrived on campus.

He had DESIRE.

I don't know what Butch would say he looked for - I'd like to know. But IMO guys who have that desire, will work out more than the others.

It also helped that Ray wrestled in HS, you could see His wrestling background in the way He tackled.

He also played RB in HS, you know who else played RB in HS?...Morgan & ST26.

You just don't see that multi-sport &/or multi-position abilty in the kids that we recruit these days.

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

I don't know what Butch would say he looked for - I'd like to know. But IMO guys who have that desire, will work out more than the others.

And BTW, Butch didn't recruit Ray, Erickson did.

People overexaggerate Butch's "eye for talent" LOL, Butch simply had a talented coaching staff that did the grunt work...that's it, no more, no less.

 

[Ethnicsands]

In any given draft year, there is a hair over 250 draft picks.

Rough math, Miami in a bad year gets like 5 Top 250-ish prospects...in a good year, like 10. If we're just shooting par, we should have guys that make NFL rosters at some level. This is whats lost in the "development" and even "evaluation" discussions...like we should be doing better than shooting par, which is what we do at best of recent vintage.

I assume youre just saying par means average development. Obviously no development wouldn’t lead to draft picks because other schools are developing and HS rankings don’t guarantee nfl outcomes. I agree we’re about average in this categry.

I also think the nfl measure and ‘nflu’ monicker have confused people around the program. Our goal isn’t draft picks, it’s winning games in college. I think plenty of other programs have figured out how to find kids who won’t be nfl players but who will be really good college players. We’ve struggled at that model as a program.

 

[TruCane81]

The biggest key to development is confidence. To play football well, you ask guys to make sound decisions INSTANTLY. The ability to make those decisions is created by a mix of factors, but true internal belief that success can be achieved is the foundation all those other factors are built on. If you don’t believe, your physical abilities, knowledge, and time put in will be inconsequential.

Miami has been hampered by poor game planning and strategy for a long time. We clung to complicated “pro style” systems that didn’t match the athletes we were recruiting. We are the national champions of square pegging players and running head first into our weaknesses. When you do this I layers lose confidence in themselves and their coaches and only the most self motivated and poised can overcome the ensuing disfunction.

Outside the elite teams, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Most teams play to their blue chip level. Some play slightly above it, but more play well below. Miami has been in the latter group unfortunately.

Culture is the most important issue and is literally determined by having the right head coach IF there is no interference from the administration and boosters. If the administration and boosters have created a toxic environment, you are dead before you were born. So we will assume that these are not a problem to move the discussion.

The job of the head coach is to make everyone under his authority believe that success in his stated goals are attainable. Without this, nothing else can save the program. People don’t work hard when they are poorly led and/trained. It’s the 10-80-10 rule. With a properly designed system top 10%ers can make the top guys in the 80% look like top 10%ers. Bottom 10%ers get shown the door.

We use terms like “discipline” ,“hard work”, “dogs” too often to coddle bad coaches with poor intangibles and terrible strategy. Even if they teach the right technique, they will fail because the structure of the program isn’t optimized for winning. The idea that everyone is self motivated and self reliant is a fallacy spewed by people that are mainly conservatives who are too stubborn Or lazy to do the hard work of FIXING SYSTEMS and leading 80%ers properly.

The championship coaches understand 10-80-10. They build their systems around it, getting as many Top 10% personalities as they can and then giving believable leadership to the rest. This type structure produces RESULTS and those results reinforce the belief of everyone in the organization.

I don’t like using nfl results as the litmus test of college development. The reasons why are obvious. The sign of a well developed team is fundamental soundness and playing hard through adversity most of the time. When a team does this, THEN you can judge their athletic talent. We are getting better and playing through adversity. The fundamentals need a lot of work though. Give us that and some better athletes, we will perform much closer to the Miami standard.

 

[SWFLHurricane]

And BTW, Butch didn't recruit Ray, Erickson did.

People overexaggerate Butch's "eye for talent" LOL, Butch simply had a talented coaching staff that did the grunt work...that's it, no more, no less.

That's such a Crock of Sh*t, that I honestly wouldn't know where to start....

 

[awill510]

I’ve been watching a few games of Auburn since we hired T-Will. I think our backers will see a big jump. Especially Flagg, Troutman(big fan of), Austin Cave and Huff. Auburn LBs were small but fast af. Reminded me of Spence and Denzel. I’m only 24 so those are great backers that come to mind for me when watching Miami. All in all I think our LBs will forsure get the necessary development. I even read an article where a senior said T-Will benched him after he had a lackluster practice, “he doesn’t care if you’re a transfer senior, graduating senior, or all conference he’ll bench you if you’re not living up to the standard”.