Development

[Ethnicsands]

There’s been an endless discussion on these boards about development. Specifically, do we do it well or not. Some of our high ranked kids have underachieved for a long time. But over the same time, we’ve had other kids who managed to get to the NFL. Did we ‘develop’ them? Did they get there on their own?

Sometimes people quote NFL stats to suggest we have had top level talent. If our kids are on NFL rosters at that level, does that mean we are good at development? Why do we keep hearing we’re bad at it?

I’m not looking for the ‘we’re terrible’ or ‘all’s great.’ Genuinely interested in what people think the real issues have been. I have a view which I will come back and share.

Also - I distinguish development from game situations. A kid can be well developed but not play in an offense that utilizes his talents well. That’s a separate issue, mostly, from did he learn his craft and position well and is he physically developed. IMO.

 

[TrueFloridian]

Development is getting the younger, more talented players to know what they are doing and playing fast. Lack of development is playing bodies that know what they’re doing simply because they’ve been in the system for 3 plus years. It’s plain and simple.

 

[Empirical Cane]

There’s been an endless discussion on these boards about development. Specifically, do we do it well or not. Some of our high ranked kids have underachieved for a long time. But over the same time, we’ve had other kids who managed to get to the NFL. Did we ‘develop’ them? Did they get there on their own?

Sometimes people quote NFL stats to suggest we have had top level talent. If our kids are on NFL rosters at that level, does that mean we are good at development? Why do we keep hearing we’re bad at it?

I’m not looking for the ‘we’re terrible’ or ‘all’s great.’ Genuinely interested in what people think the real issues have been. I have a view which I will come back and share.

Also - I distinguish development from game situations. A kid can be well developed but not play in an offense that utilizes his talents well. That’s a separate issue, mostly, from did he learn his craft and position well and is he physically developed. IMO.

Miami's Recruiting + Training + Retaining process flow is clearly not working as well as some other programs.

I would initially focus efforts on:

1) "are we identifying the athlete capabilities we need 3 years from now?"
2) "are we getting the right athlete to match the way we train?"
3) "are training methodologies optimized to install what is needed?"
4) "if we fail at #1, are we not adjusting and then further failing at #2 and #3?

 

[Arro]

This argument about development is obsolete. For the past year athletes have been free to transfer to another school without penalty. If our kids thought they would get better coaching elsewhere, they would have left. Yet, we have had more talent transfer in than out.

During the Richt/Diaz era, the ones who have left haven’t exactly set the world on fire either. Lingard? Patchan? The same goes for the ones who left here and went to the NFL. The pros have the best coaches, and they have gotten a close look at some of the guys whom we thought were talented but never developed. Jeff Thomas? The NFL said “meh”.

The story was different during prior coaching staffs. I seem to remember kids leaving here and balling at other schools. We lost 5+ games in a season and a bunch of the kids got drafted by the NFL. A DE who looked mediocre under Onofrio, goes on to blossom in the NFL as a LB. Many players who looked mediocre suddenly took a leap when Diaz came on board.

In summary, while development might still have room for improvement here, the bigger problem lately is that we haven’t been recruiting the talent. There has been a drop off in talent over the past five years as the Golden recruits left. Manny finally started to address that last month.

 

[Skitz305]

I don't think we are developing them at the peak of other programs. The high ranked kids that underperform here but produce in the NFL I think is a matter of some of these kids being physical freaks and had high rankings in part because of physical talent. So a team will take a flyer on a kid just off okay college tape but have crazy workout numbers. They get to the NFL with proper coaching, system, and many guys excel.

 

[SPAMM]

Of the top 100 current NFL players, how many would be from Miami? This is based on current ability, hence, Gore would not be on the list.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Of the top 100 current NFL players, how many would be from Miami? This is based on current ability, hence, Gore would not be on the list.

Zero?

 

[Ethnicsands]

I don't think we are developing them at the peak of other programs. The high ranked kids that underperform here but produce in the NFL I think is a matter of some of these kids being physical freaks and had high rankings in part because of physical talent. So a team will take a flyer on a kid just off okay college tape but have crazy workout numbers. They get to the NFL with proper coaching, system, and many guys excel.

Who are the many guys who you say underproduced at UM then excelled in the NFL?

 

[Ethnicsands]

Miami's Recruiting + Training + Retaining process flow is clearly not working as well as some other programs.

I would initially focus efforts on:

1) "are we identifying the athlete capabilities we need 3 years from now?"
2) "are we getting the right athlete to match the way we train?"
3) "are training methodologies optimized to install what is needed?"
4) "if we fail at #1, are we not adjusting and then further failing at #2 and #3?

I've written a lot about evaluations, so wanted to try to focus on development, since I hear back a lot that the issue isn't recruiting, it's development. I'm not saying evaluations haven't been an issue, I'm just focusing on the development piece here.

The interesting thing to me is that guys 'developed' all the way through the 'dark ages' at UM. Some guys made it to the NFL. Some guys 'develop' at random schools without serious programs. But then top recruits came to UM and didn't 'develop.' What's the explanation?

IMO it comes back to culture. The kids we had who 'developed' were likely the self-motivated kids. The kids we had who didn't 'develop' as well were kids who were sucked in by the Country Club Coker, Ice Cream Social, Call it what you want culture. (Or perhaps we were just recruiting too many kids for whom that culture was appealing?)

We clearly need a more competitive, mission-driven culture like we had when we were winning, and like other top programs have. But for the purpose of this discussion, I'm interested in knowing whether people think the 'high recruits' who don't progress in mediocre cultures would do well with better cultures ... or just wash out faster in them? Would kids who aren't self-motivated but have athletic talent succeed at Alabama, because culture? Or would they just never get recruited by Alabama, because Saban knows what personality traits he's looking for, and can identify kids who will do the work? Are we missing a screen in recruiting ... or is it really 'development'? If the latter, can we get to the bottom of what this means?

@LuCane; @Rellyrell

 

[rok]

Recruiting and competitive fire were staples here from 83-03. That hard-assedness left with Vilma, Williams, Wilfork, Taylor after 2003. Once those last of a dying breed of fierce competitors were gone the NFL-U culture infected the program while Coker and Shannon enabled the cancerous CC mentality that's been hard to remove. It begins with competition imo, and is amplified by low-rent coaching, facilities and 'get yo 3 and flee' mentality.

 

[SPAMM]

The on the field results of the Golden era tend to blind the fans to the relative good performance of his recruits in the pros.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Recruiting and competitive fire were staples here from 83-03. That hard-assedness left with Vilma, Williams, Wilfork, Taylor after 2003. Once those last of a dying breed of fierce competitors were gone the NFL-U culture infected the program while Coker and Shannon enabled the cancerous CC mentality that's been hard to remove. It begins with competition imo, and is amplified by low-rent coaching, facilities and 'get yo 3 and flee' mentality.

rok, is it okay if I call you by a nickname, or should I call you Mr. rukulika?

In any case, do you think the low-rent facilities were an issue?

I am with you on the culture point, 100%

 

[Ethnicsands]

The on the field results of the Golden era tend to blind the fans to the relative good performance of his recruits in the pros.

Which group of Golden recruits specifically are you referring to when you say 'relative good performance' in the pros?

 

[NC_Canes_11]

I would say it’s a mixed bag. We’ve obviously had a bunch of guys underperform, but we just don’t have many freak athletes. On the other side guys like JJ, Redwine, Toolbox, Adrian Colbert, Bandy (when put in his correct position) outplayed their perceived potential.

 

[rok]

rok, is it okay if I call you by a nickname, or should I call you Mr. rukulika?

In any case, do you think the low-rent facilities were an issue?

I am with you on the culture point, 100%

Before we had an IPF the team would pile into the volleyball stadium whenever the lightning alarm went off, and the day's work would be lost. Everything else was probably always adequate when it comes to developing athletes but it still feels like we're playing catch-up.

 

[RightSaidFred]

Development is overrated. The idea that one man can "develop" another is actually insulting. But that's what happens when you coddle an entire generation from the time they're in the cradle, telling them what special little snowflakes they are every day. We have a whole soft-*** generation in this country still living at home in their 30's.

These are the same people who think everything bad that happens to them is somebody else's fault, and that the world owes them ****.

Nobody owes you a god**** thing. And it's nobody's job to develop you except YOURS. Whether you succeed or fail is on YOU, not on anyone else. The players who make it big are those who are either really gifted, or they have it within THEMSELVES to work hard. They come in after practice, get extra reps. They wake up early and get extra time in the film room.

 

[Rellyrell]

This argument about development is obsolete. For the past year athletes have been free to transfer to another school without penalty. If our kids thought they would get better coaching elsewhere, they would have left. Yet, we have had more talent transfer in than out.

During the Richt/Diaz era, the ones who have left haven’t exactly set the world on fire either. Lingard? Patchan? The same goes for the ones who left here and went to the NFL. The pros have the best coaches, and they have gotten a close look at some of the guys whom we thought were talented but never developed. Jeff Thomas? The NFL said “meh”.

The story was different during prior coaching staffs. I seem to remember kids leaving here and balling at other schools. We lost 5+ games in a season and a bunch of the kids got drafted by the NFL. A DE who looked mediocre under Onofrio, goes on to blossom in the NFL as a LB. Many players who looked mediocre suddenly took a leap when Diaz came on board.

In summary, while development might still have room for improvement here, the bigger problem lately is that we haven’t been recruiting the talent. There has been a drop off in talent over the past five years as the Golden recruits left. Manny finally started to address that last month.

Kids transfer for many reason, but typically they transfer due to playing time, home sick (allegedly), losing a starting position, or playing a position they don’t want.

 

[JD08]

Miami's Recruiting + Training + Retaining process flow is clearly not working as well as some other programs.

I would initially focus efforts on:

1) "are we identifying the athlete capabilities we need 3 years from now?"
2) "are we getting the right athlete to match the way we train?"
3) "are training methodologies optimized to install what is needed?"
4) "if we fail at #1, are we not adjusting and then further failing at #2 and #3?

#1 is difficult because players are impatient and have options now and just look at the amount of leeway Manny has been given to develop 3 years out. People were calling for his head after the second game of his first season.

People want instant results based on instant information. We know what recruits are/ are not interested and overanalyze tweets when 20+ years ago we only heard things from sports radio or the like. We see the same problem in a lot of areas. When people could only check stock prices once a week in the Sunday paper, there was a lot less focus on short term gains at the expense of long term stability. Instant gratification and short memory are the problem.

 

[Ironmanfootball]

Kids transfer for many reason, but typically they transfer due to playing time, home sick (allegedly), losing a starting position, or playing a position they don’t want.

I would also add being sold lies from the staff during recruitment, and then the staff acts completely different once you show up. Some players don't heed the warning about X or Y coach/program not being real with you.

 

[TrueFloridian]

Who are the many guys who you say underproduced at UM then excelled in the NFL?

Big issue to me is not putting guys in places to succeed and utilizing their skill sets with Dorito and Golden on defense. Shields, Armstrong, and Chickillo are prime examples. You say the name Golden to Chick and he cringes. Say F Golden then he smiles and laughs.