Development

[AlexCane]

The bigger problem is that since Butch, the head coaches haven't been good enough but also haven't been able to establish roots here (Coker was exception in that regard). Ideally, your 3rd and 4th year+ players establish a culture/standard/system that is passed down to the younger players and it carries on. Because of constant turnover at the HC position, we've had lots of departures (both staff+players) and continually small [and unproductive] senior classes.

It's why I'm crossing my fingers that Manny succeeds. Because we can't build anything with head coaches that are only here for 3-4 years.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

There’s been an endless discussion on these boards about development. Specifically, do we do it well or not. Some of our high ranked kids have underachieved for a long time. But over the same time, we’ve had other kids who managed to get to the NFL. Did we ‘develop’ them? Did they get there on their own?

Sometimes people quote NFL stats to suggest we have had top level talent. If our kids are on NFL rosters at that level, does that mean we are good at development? Why do we keep hearing we’re bad at it?

I’m not looking for the ‘we’re terrible’ or ‘all’s great.’ Genuinely interested in what people think the real issues have been. I have a view which I will come back and share.

Also - I distinguish development from game situations. A kid can be well developed but not play in an offense that utilizes his talents well. That’s a separate issue, mostly, from did he learn his craft and position well and is he physically developed. IMO.

Some positions require more development than other positions. Quarterback is at the high end of "requires development". OLs require development because they are usually not very well taught/coached at the HS level. CBs may not require as much technical development, more a process of how the college coaches play them and put them in position to succeed. Some kids just need to be unleashed.

You also can have issues with college coaches spending time on teaching certain skills that will pay off later. For instance, Soldinger was infamous for not playing RBs until they learned how to block. Had nothing to do with their actual running ability. Thus, some of our RBs seems to "develop" later, but it was more because they were not given starts until they became better blockers.

I think that there is very inconsistent HS teaching/coaching when it comes to skills, particularly in SoFla, so sometimes a kid needs a lot of work in college to unlock the natural ability.

Lots of talent in Florida HS football. Sometimes kids/coaches have to be patient. You have to figure out a reasonable definition of "development". It's not that college coaches "make" every kid a better player. Sometimes it is a mix of building confidence, providing reps, teaching a kid how to use his abilities in a more natural football way, etc.

I think college coaches have to be flexible. Not every kid needs to be "developed" in the same way. Some kids need a lot of polishing, some may just need to be set loose and given the chance to succeed or fail.

 

[Canes2082]

Which group of Golden recruits specifically are you referring to when you say 'relative good performance' in the pros?

Im thinking the offensive line... 2013 was last time we had a solid Oline IMO... 3 guys are still starters in the league

Flowers (dolphins) , Feliciano ( bills) , McDermott (practice squad), Linder (jags), Henderson (2014-2019 bills and texans)

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

Im thinking the offensive line... 2013 was last time we had a solid Oline IMO... 3 guys are still starters in the league

Flowers (dolphins) , Feliciano ( bills) , McDermott (practice squad), Linder (jags), Henderson (2014-2019 bills and texans)

Feliciano, Linder, & Henderson were Shannon recruits.

 

[Canes2082]

Feliciano, Linder, & Henderson were Shannon recruits.

Yes but are we talking recruiting, developing or both

 

[AlexCane]

Im thinking the offensive line... 2013 was last time we had a solid Oline IMO... 3 guys are still starters in the league

Flowers (dolphins) , Feliciano ( bills) , McDermott (practice squad), Linder (jags), Henderson (2014-2019 bills and texans)

There were some productive NFL players from the Golden era. Flowers. Allen Hurns. Walford. Duke. Dorsett. Stephen Morris has also hung around the league. Olivier Vernon. Sean Spence. Perryman. Travis Benjamin. Mike James. Lamar Miller. Deon Bush. Artie Burns. Rayshawn Jenkins. Ray-Ray Armstrong had a little stint in the NFL too. Malcolm Lewis was on the Fins practice squad for a while too. Chick. Corn Elder and Trent Harris were also freshman in his last year here.

(And I'll go to my grave that Eddie Johnson should have been a stud.)

 

[Brains]

There’s been an endless discussion on these boards about development. Specifically, do we do it well or not. Some of our high ranked kids have underachieved for a long time. But over the same time, we’ve had other kids who managed to get to the NFL. Did we ‘develop’ them? Did they get there on their own?

Sometimes people quote NFL stats to suggest we have had top level talent. If our kids are on NFL rosters at that level, does that mean we are good at development? Why do we keep hearing we’re bad at it?

I’m not looking for the ‘we’re terrible’ or ‘all’s great.’ Genuinely interested in what people think the real issues have been. I have a view which I will come back and share.

Also - I distinguish development from game situations. A kid can be well developed but not play in an offense that utilizes his talents well. That’s a separate issue, mostly, from did he learn his craft and position well and is he physically developed. IMO.

I am a firm believer that the coaches need to evaluate, and then sell, the best players to come here. Then, you put them in the right scheme, call the right plays, and make proper substitution. "Development," a rather vague term, comes after all of this on the importance hierarchy.

I think the notion of "development" is overrated. The staff must identify- and sell- the brightest, most athletic, most self-motivated guys. The "development" will come mostly from within (i.e. player work ethic first, supplemented by coaches' methods).

TL;DR: As always, it all comes down to recruiting.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

I've written a lot about evaluations, so wanted to try to focus on development, since I hear back a lot that the issue isn't recruiting, it's development. I'm not saying evaluations haven't been an issue, I'm just focusing on the development piece here.

The interesting thing to me is that guys 'developed' all the way through the 'dark ages' at UM. Some guys made it to the NFL. Some guys 'develop' at random schools without serious programs. But then top recruits came to UM and didn't 'develop.' What's the explanation?

IMO it comes back to culture. The kids we had who 'developed' were likely the self-motivated kids. The kids we had who didn't 'develop' as well were kids who were sucked in by the Country Club Coker, Ice Cream Social, Call it what you want culture. (Or perhaps we were just recruiting too many kids for whom that culture was appealing?)

We clearly need a more competitive, mission-driven culture like we had when we were winning, and like other top programs have. But for the purpose of this discussion, I'm interested in knowing whether people think the 'high recruits' who don't progress in mediocre cultures would do well with better cultures ... or just wash out faster in them? Would kids who aren't self-motivated but have athletic talent succeed at Alabama, because culture? Or would they just never get recruited by Alabama, because Saban knows what personality traits he's looking for, and can identify kids who will do the work? Are we missing a screen in recruiting ... or is it really 'development'? If the latter, can we get to the bottom of what this means?

@LuCane; @Rellyrell

I believe the bests staffs can do both: identify and recruit self-motivated kids with good intangible traits, and instill/teach/cultivate those traits in kids with high athletic potential but who may lack the desired intangibles. Obviously depends on the kid, but I have little doubt that some of the highly rated ones who fizzle out at mediocre programs would have done better in a more competitive, disciplined, and regimented program. But I tend to believe that values like hard work and self-discipline can be taught to young people, though it admittedly becomes more and more difficult the older they get.

If forced to choose one over the other, I am in the camp that there are intangible/personality traits the better staffs are looking for in their recruits. Mostly because I think it is easier to spot hard-working, self-motivated 17-18 year olds than it is to teach kids ages 18-22 those traits.

In the particular case of Alabama, I expect accurately identifying those traits has less to do with Saban himself being some sage evaluator and has more to do with the amount of resources and support personnel Alabama invests into recruiting/evaluating. I am sure he sets the tone regarding the weight Alabama places on personality/intangibles, but determining which kids "have it" is surely helped in large part by the sheer amount resources that school dedicates to recruiting.

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

(And I'll go to my grave that Eddie Johnson should have been a stud.)

And Gabe Terry, Blue, & Figueroa...but Golden wasn't a very good judge of character at the LB position.

 

[AlexCane]

I believe the bests staffs can do both: identify and recruit self-motivated kids with good intangible traits, and instill/teach/cultivate those traits in kids with high athletic potential but who may lack the desired intangibles. Obviously depends on the kid, but I have little doubt that some of the highly rated ones who fizzle out at mediocre programs would have done better in a more competitive, disciplined, and regimented program. But I tend to believe that values like hard work and self-discipline can be taught to young people, though it admittedly becomes more and more difficult the older they get.

If forced to choose one over the other, I am in the camp that there are intangible/personality traits the better staffs are looking for in their recruits. Mostly because I think it is easier to spot hard-working, self-motivated 17-18 year olds than it is to teach kids ages 18-22 those traits.

In the particular case of Alabama, I expect accurately identifying those traits has less to do with Saban himself being some sage evaluator and has more to do with the amount of resources and support personnel Alabama invests into recruiting/evaluating. I am sure he sets the tone regarding the weight Alabama places on personality/intangibles, but determining which kids "have it" is surely helped in large part by the sheer amount resources that school dedicates to recruiting.

It's culture/system.

I have an acquaintance who was S&C director for 2 programs. He said that once you build a system and teach kids the fundamentals of lifting, how to train, etc., the upper-classmen are teaching the freshmen. At that point, they're on auto-pilot. Bama can likely recruit kids with questionable character, habits . . . once they come in and see what is expected of them, either they ship up and meet the standards or they're out.

I know some folks are meh about our returning kids, but I for one and am pleased that guys like Cam, Harley, McCloud, etc. are back. I am hopeful that they establish a culture for the younger players in terms of work ethic, training, watching film, etc. And that the young guys carry the torch when they're at that stage.

 

[JgDaCane]

Development is overrated. The idea that one man can "develop" another is actually insulting. But that's what happens when you coddle an entire generation from the time they're in the cradle, telling them what special little snowflakes they are every day. We have a whole soft-*** generation in this country still living at home in their 30's.

These are the same people who think everything bad that happens to them is somebody else's fault, and that the world owes them ****.

Nobody owes you a god**** thing. And it's nobody's job to develop you except YOURS. Whether you succeed or fail is on YOU, not on anyone else. The players who make it big are those who are either really gifted, or they have it within THEMSELVES to work hard. They come in after practice, get extra reps. They wake up early and get extra time in the film room.

Lol, no it's not. Taking an 18 year old kid & teaching him proper technique/intricacies about his position to max his ability is far from insulting. That's what development is.

 

[The_tbj]

I think we are finally getting to a point recruiting and depth wise where we will not have to take high talent kids that aren’t quite ready and throw them into the fire ready or not.

This should help development immensely.

Not only will it give kids time to get stronger faster before playing it will allow guys to be more mentally mature before playing. Consistently recruiting high level talent will push kids to work harder while they’re waiting for their turn to make sure they don’t get passed over on depth chart.

In recent years we have had depth that fosters development at certain positions mainly DE, TE, and RB. But now I think our QB room Safety Room WR are also there with our CB room and LB room not yet where they need to be. (I expect that to be close to fixed with 22 class).

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

It's culture/system.

I have an acquaintance who was S&C director for 2 programs. He said that once you build a system and teach kids the fundamentals of lifting, how to train, etc., the upper-classmen are teaching the freshmen. At that point, they're on auto-pilot. Bama can likely recruit kids with questionable character, habits . . . once they come in and see what is expected of them, either they ship up and meet the standards or they're out.

I know some folks are meh about our returning kids, but I for one and am pleased that guys like Cam, Harley, McCloud, etc. are back. I am hopeful that they establish a culture for the younger players in terms of work ethic, training, watching film, etc. And that the young guys carry the torch when they're at that stage.

Teaching a kid proper technique (in the gym or elsewhere) isn't anywhere near as hard as teaching a kid that he needs to be in the gym (or elsewhere) working on maximizing his ability. Getting them to do it "on their own time" is where it gets difficult. Some kids walk through the door with that work ethic, others need to have it instilled in them.

 

[AlexCane]

I think we are finally getting to a point recruiting and depth wise where we will not have to take high talent kids that aren’t quite ready and throw them into the fire ready or not.

This should help development immensely.

Not only will it give kids time to get stronger faster before playing it will allow guys to be more mentally mature before playing. Consistently recruiting high level talent will push kids to work harder while they’re waiting for their turn to make sure they don’t get passed over on depth chart.

In recent years we have had depth that fosters development at certain positions mainly DE, TE, and RB. But now I think our QB room Safety Room WR are also there with our CB room and LB room not yet where they need to be. (I expect that to be close to fixed with 22 class).

Case in point: Zion Nelson.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Im thinking the offensive line... 2013 was last time we had a solid Oline IMO... 3 guys are still starters in the league

Flowers (dolphins) , Feliciano ( bills) , McDermott (practice squad), Linder (jags), Henderson (2014-2019 bills and texans)

Okay, now I understand the confusion. Of that group, I hope you realize that Linder, Henderson and Feliciano were not Golden recruits. And Shane McDermott wasn't either (KC was).

 

[Ethnicsands]

I believe the bests staffs can do both: identify and recruit self-motivated kids with good intangible traits, and instill/teach/cultivate those traits in kids with high athletic potential but who may lack the desired intangibles. Obviously depends on the kid, but I have little doubt that some of the highly rated ones who fizzle out at mediocre programs would have done better in a more competitive, disciplined, and regimented program. But I tend to believe that values like hard work and self-discipline can be taught to young people, though it admittedly becomes more and more difficult the older they get.

If forced to choose one over the other, I am in the camp that there are intangible/personality traits the better staffs are looking for in their recruits. Mostly because I think it is easier to spot hard-working, self-motivated 17-18 year olds than it is to teach kids ages 18-22 those traits.

In the particular case of Alabama, I expect accurately identifying those traits has less to do with Saban himself being some sage evaluator and has more to do with the amount of resources and support personnel Alabama invests into recruiting/evaluating. I am sure he sets the tone regarding the weight Alabama places on personality/intangibles, but determining which kids "have it" is surely helped in large part by the sheer amount resources that school dedicates to recruiting.

I agree 100% with you. Those are two points I've been trying to make on this board for a long time.

 

[pacusmc]

We keep living in the past and suffering from the ineptitudes of past coaching staffs.

We keep thinking that some coach is gonna show up here and start grabbing recruits nobody knew about and make them nfl players.
Very few players fly under the radar and if it was so easy to spot what a player may grow into or turn into then everyone would do it.

No program or coach has a long standing history of turning low rated players into draft picks.
It’s the reason Antonio Brown and Khalil Mack end up at the schools that they did.

What Golden and D-no did with that 2013 squad is straight criminal.
And ever since then we’ve been bleeding talent that never would’ve left if we had a proper coaching staff in place.

We’ve had very few players that can actually be called elite can’t miss prospects but we can’t say it’s the programs fault if they weren’t first rounders or became pro-bowers.

There are too many examples of first rounders who didn’t need elite competition in practice to become elite players. There are players form lower p5 and even g5 teams who’s coaches never produced one draft pick to say development is a coach’s fault.
There are plenty of “elite “ players that went in the first 2 rounds that went to Bama lsu and osu and never saw a second co tract.

Gerald Willis was a monster the minute he stepped on campus.
Rj McIntosh went through 2 different systems and coaches and still made the league.
Ahmon Richards didn’t need 3 years of coaching and development.

Bama right now has over 70 players that are 4 stars and above and most of them wont start for them or make the league. But no one in here questions them about development cause every year several of their players go on day one.
But if any 4 or 5 star player of ours doesn’t go day on or two then our staff is a failure.

You guy left want us to “develop” first round talent while missing the boat on getting elite athletes first.
Njoku was “developed” but in reality he’s just a freak and there are tight ends that are even more freakish.
Ohio state’s secondary consistently recruits kids that run 4.4’s. You’re not teaching or developing that. Any 6foot db that has cover skills and runs that fast has a high probability of going high. Ps2 has way more and way better film than TC. And tc will still likely go in the 1st round.
Nobody is gonna draft a 4.6 corner in the 1st when some lineman are running 4.8’s now a days.
Don’t expect every blue chip recruit to be an nfl talent then go blaming a coaching staff.

This program created a self inflicted wound by hiring the wrong coaches. Then it survived that wound due to due the sheer amount of kids that grew up cane fans. As that wound kept bleeding the kids that came up had no idea or memory of UM as an upper echelon or elite football program and had no problem heading out of town.
The past 5 years there has been a disconnect between the fans and the young players.
Mae say “why the **** don’t you want to come to UM” while they say things like “I wouldn’t come even if you paid me”.

The players that were reveleant in the league kept dwindling until they just became some players from another era of football that some kids can’t even name.
Now every elite player south of I4 wants to go to to a top group of teams that all have one thing in common: They hoard elite talent and let the best ones start.

What Butch did isn’t happening again for a variety of reasons. One being the fact that it will be impossible to amass enough talent to match those squads and have most of them be “under the radar guys” or “ switch their position” or “develop”.
There is too much film and too much exposure and if you offer now a days everyone is looking at who you offered right away and the player is letting everyone now about that offer on social media.

Every time i bring this up people want to say “we never recruited like those schools when we won”.
And that’s true. But that was also 20 years ago when a palm pilot was the coolest tech on earth.

 

[Midlo Cane Fan]

 

[SpikeUM]

View attachment 143191

I was actually about to make a comment along the same lines. Bill B., Charlie Weis and countless other Patriots OC's were geniuses, until they didnt have Tom Brady. So having the Jimmy's and Joe's appears to be at least equally as important as coaching/development.

 

[NicKane]

#1 is difficult because players are impatient and have options now and just look at the amount of leeway Manny has been given to develop 3 years out. People were calling for his head after the second game of his first season.

People want instant results based on instant information. We know what recruits are/ are not interested and overanalyze tweets when 20+ years ago we only heard things from sports radio or the like. We see the same problem in a lot of areas. When people could only check stock prices once a week in the Sunday paper, there was a lot less focus on short term gains at the expense of long term stability. Instant gratification and short memory are the problem.

That wasn’t his first season, that was his fourth season here. The three as DC still count regardless of the people that like to scream it’s only “season one bro” and he “needs more time to get his players bro” nonsense!