Development

It seems like every year somebody Tweets a stat like this. Shouldn't surprise anyone, or lead to any groundbreaking conclusions.

There were about 2600 HS players signed to FBS in the 2020 class. Only about 30 5*, plus about 370 4* players. So there were about 2200 HS players signed that were ranked 3* or less, versus about 400 players ranked 5* or 4*. It's a fact there are more 3* players in the NFL vs. 5*/4* players, but it is equally true that your odds of making the league as a 5* > 4* > 3*.
 
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This argument gets made by the “stars don’t matter” crowd a lot. The reason there’s more three star players in the NFL than four or five stars is because there’s a significantly larger number of players assigned a three star grade. There are 32 five star players every year on 247. There’s roughly 350 four star guys. I believe there are well over 1000 three star players every year.
 
That wasn’t his first season, that was his fourth season here. The three as DC still count regardless of the people that like to scream it’s only “season one bro” and he “needs more time to get his players bro” nonsense!
My comment applies to the changing landscape of college football, not Manny in particular. I used him as an example because of the 0-2 start in 2019 and the people calling for his head at that time.

You can only play one note and you hit it on every post. Geez. It's not always all about Manny.
 
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Those 3 star recruits range form p5 all the way to low g5 teams and are spread out all over the country and many from coaches that may have never coached one nfl player.
Evaluations are hard and many “elite coaches” didn’t even offer many of those 2 and 3 star players.

The playoff teams have nfl talent on them but they mostly win because they have huge number of above average cfb players.
We got 9 players drafted a few years ago so “nfl talent” wasn’t the issue. The problem was the low amount of above average cfb talent compared to the playoff teams
 


This is SUCH a bullsh!te stat.

First, if you go back to the 2010 ESPN 150 (the first year that ESPN has star-rankings, compared to Rivals/Scout since 2002), they only gave TWELVE 5-star rankings. Rivals/Scout/247 routinely give two to three times as many 5-star rankings.

2010 - 12 ESPN 5-stars
2011 - 14 ESPN 5-stars
2012 - 11 ESPN 5-stars
2013 - 11 ESPN 5-stars
2014 - 15 ESPN 5-stars (Fournette's year)
2015 - 20 ESPN 5-stars
2016 - 9 ESPN 5-stars
2017 - 15 ESPN 5-stars (Jaelan Phillips is one, and he is just now going in the NFL draft, along with a bunch of other dudes)
2018 - 13 ESPN 5-stars (a bunch who are going in the NFL draft this year)

So, really, we are talking about ESPN giving 5-star rankings for 7 years of time (2010-2016) for guys who are CURRENTLY in the NFL. So that is 92 guys, and assuming that ALL of them made it to the NFL (which did not happen, of course), you MIGHT expect 3 guys per team (except for, you know, the short average NFL career of all players, so a bunch of those guys from 2010 and 2011 are already retired).

So I'm not sure why it is such a surprise that out of 92 ESPN 5-star guys from 2010 to 2016, only one played in the Super Bowl yesterday.

Not to mention the fact that the Super Bowl is just 2 teams out of 32. And there is a salary cap. So, unlike say, Alabama/Clemson, the two best NFL teams are not loaded with blue-chippers at every position.

But, yeah, let's post some more misleading and meaningless stats.
 
It seems like every year somebody Tweets a stat like this. Shouldn't surprise anyone, or lead to any groundbreaking conclusions.

There were about 2600 HS players signed to FBS in the 2020 class. Only about 30 5*, plus about 370 4* players. So there were about 2200 HS players signed that were ranked 3* or less, versus about 400 players ranked 5* or 4*. It's a fact there are more 3* players in the NFL vs. 5*/4* players, but it is equally true that your odds of making the league as a 5* > 4* > 3*.
So the schools that get all these 3 star players must be really good at “developing” as opposed to the top programs?
I guess there are a bunch of coaches out there that are better than Corey Raymond considering the ammonia rod 3 star corners in the league.
 
Lol, no it's not. Taking an 18 year old kid & teaching him proper technique/intricacies about his position to max his ability is far from insulting. That's what development is.

First, an 18 year old is NOT a "kid." At 18, you're a legal adult. You're old enough to drive, you're old enough to ****, you're old enough to work, buy a house, and go to war. You're an ADULT. At that age, you need to take responsibility for yourself.

Second, it IS insulting. It's taking credit for someone else's accomplishments. Do you think some coach "developed" Tom Brady or Ed Reed? No... they put in the work themselves.

Blaming the teacher is the lamest thing ever. Develop your own **** self and handle your own **** ****. Anything else is just soft, plain and simple.
 
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This is SUCH a bullsh!te stat.

First, if you go back to the 2010 ESPN 150 (the first year that ESPN has star-rankings, compared to Rivals/Scout since 2002), they only gave TWELVE 5-star rankings. Rivals/Scout/247 routinely give two to three times as many 5-star rankings.

2010 - 12 ESPN 5-stars
2011 - 14 ESPN 5-stars
2012 - 11 ESPN 5-stars
2013 - 11 ESPN 5-stars
2014 - 15 ESPN 5-stars (Fournette's year)
2015 - 20 ESPN 5-stars
2016 - 9 ESPN 5-stars
2017 - 15 ESPN 5-stars (Jaelan Phillips is one, and he is just now going in the NFL draft, along with a bunch of other dudes)
2018 - 13 ESPN 5-stars (a bunch who are going in the NFL draft this year)

So, really, we are talking about ESPN giving 5-star rankings for 7 years of time (2010-2016) for guys who are CURRENTLY in the NFL. So that is 92 guys, and assuming that ALL of them made it to the NFL (which did not happen, of course), you MIGHT expect 3 guys per team (except for, you know, the short average NFL career of all players, so a bunch of those guys from 2010 and 2011 are already retired).

So I'm not sure why it is such a surprise that out of 92 ESPN 5-star guys from 2010 to 2016, only one played in the Super Bowl yesterday.

Not to mention the fact that the Super Bowl is just 2 teams out of 32. And there is a salary cap. So, unlike say, Alabama/Clemson, the two best NFL teams are not loaded with blue-chippers at every position.

But, yeah, let's post some more misleading and meaningless stats.
My question is this: why are there so many 3 star players in the league that weren’t coached by these top coaches or went to playoff teams?
Why are we crowing these coaches that get freaks of nature to coach and they get all the credit while the coaches of these 3 star guys get no love?
Everybody loves Raymond while he gets top 5 corners every year.
Everybody loves saban while he gets freaks too.
But nobody wants Josh Norman’s coach from coastal Carolina.

We never asks how the **** did Josh Norman get Drafted and what he did to get there.
We never ask how AB went unnoticed in sofla. We never asked if we can get his coach from central Michigan to come here and “develop” receivers like he did with AB.
 
There’s been an endless discussion on these boards about development. Specifically, do we do it well or not. Some of our high ranked kids have underachieved for a long time. But over the same time, we’ve had other kids who managed to get to the NFL. Did we ‘develop’ them? Did they get there on their own?

Sometimes people quote NFL stats to suggest we have had top level talent. If our kids are on NFL rosters at that level, does that mean we are good at development? Why do we keep hearing we’re bad at it?

I’m not looking for the ‘we’re terrible’ or ‘all’s great.’ Genuinely interested in what people think the real issues have been. I have a view which I will come back and share.

Also - I distinguish development from game situations. A kid can be well developed but not play in an offense that utilizes his talents well. That’s a separate issue, mostly, from did he learn his craft and position well and is he physically developed. IMO.
We’ve produced some guys. But there’s also been a large amount who haven’t reached their potential on THIS level. Too me that’s most important. Weve had guys who don’t have NFL potential but they certainly have enough talent to do better at this level. @TrueFloridian sam didn’t play under Al and Dorito. RayRay played like 5 game under them. Chick may not have liked his use and development. That’s fair. But he did get drafted here and IMHO his NFL career matched his collegiate production while here under the scheme he chose to commit too. They put bad weight on him too fast and he was clearly a 3/4 Rush LB not a 5 tech
 
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My question is this: why are there so many 3 star players in the league that weren’t coached by these top coaches or went to playoff teams?
Why are we crowing these coaches that get freaks of nature to coach and they get all the credit while the coaches of these 3 star guys get no love?
Everybody loves Raymond while he gets top 5 corners every year.
Everybody loves saban while he gets freaks too.
But nobody wants Josh Norman’s coach from coastal Carolina.

We never asks how the **** did Josh Norman get Drafted and what he did to get there.
We never ask how AB went unnoticed in sofla. We never asked if we can get his coach from central Michigan to come here and “develop” receivers like he did with AB.

I suspect if Josh Norman's coach had put several other Josh Normans in the NFL, you'd know his name.

The ugly truth is there are many reasons why recruits may exceed or fail to meet expectations that have nothing to do with coaching or development.
 
@Ethnicsands , it never ceases to amaze me of the number of people on this site who can’t answer simple questions.

warning: tl;dr

Unfortunately, most schools don’t develop. Like most sales people don’t sell, like most managers don’t manage — most coaches, S&C included, don’t coach. They’re ”coloring by numbers” and hoping for the best. Not necessarily incompetent, but not exactly capable either. Coaching is development. (Recruiting though part of a coaches job is not development — yet it’s brought up every time the topic turns to development.)

Development consists of two things: physical development and mental development. Physical development is measurable and should answer the question of whether the athlete is faster/stronger/more explosive. If they’re not, in comparison to high school, they haven’t been physically developed, or developed to the point to where they’re useful to the program.

Mental development is improving an “athletes IQ”. Recognizing patterns, play calls, balance, situations, weight shift, leverage, eyes and utilizing/overcoming/understanding them to your advantage. Richard Sherman was never the fastest corner, but he knew what to do — something developed athletes all share in common. Reading/watching Clemson talk about defense and they mention “eyes” and “eye discipline“ a thousand times … clearly they believe it’s taught and use 2/3-stars to prove it.

The issue: are these just self-directed and/or ”natural” athletes or are they coached/taught? Obviously the answer is both to an extent, but the prevailing sentiment of the board would imply that “you have to get the right kids” (which usually means better/higher starred kids that in essence do NOT have to be coached) — and I don’t believe that’s true. Any athlete can be made faster/stronger. Any. Every athlete can improve their “IQ”. Every. I’m NOT saying you can give every receiver Tyreek Hill speed or a Metcalfe body... but if kids are leaving your S&C after 3-5 years with similar numbers to when they arrived, then you’ve failed. If your OL can’t identify a blitz or your DL a screen, you’ve failed. If your LB constantly fall for miss direction or can’t defeat blocks, you’ve failed. If your QBs can’t run your offense? You’ve failed.

Your question. My belief: no. My standard for development is higher than “got drafted/made the practice squad”, My standard is significant contributor; they actually play in the NFL. And in the past 4 years Miami has produced very few of them (Temple, Buffalo and UCONN may have drafted more players in the top 4 rounds in the last 4 years than Miami. Hyperbole alert). Also (and this is important because every contributor isn’t going to make the league), have they improved physically/mentally on the college level? And from 3rd/4th year kids not being able to block/get a push, catch, tackle, defeat block, turn head or just understand situational football on a college level … Miami is middling — like **** near every other program in college football. Because a “developed” Miami, given the talent advantage Miami has over all ACC schools not named Clemson (with UNC on the way up and FSU on the way down, temporarily) would go 11-1, 12-0 every year had the kids been properly developed.
 
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First, an 18 year old is NOT a "kid." At 18, you're a legal adult. You're old enough to drive, you're old enough to ****, you're old enough to work, buy a house, and go to war. You're an ADULT. At that age, you need to take responsibility for yourself.

Second, it IS insulting. It's taking credit for someone else's accomplishments. Do you think some coach "developed" Tom Brady or Ed Reed? No... they put in the work themselves.

Blaming the teacher is the lamest thing ever. Develop your own **** self and handle your own **** ****. Anything else is just soft, plain and simple.
Ok, I'll play. So how does a player learn better technique? How do they know their throwing mechanics are off or they're not reading keys correctly?


Would you not say that some position coaches are better at teaching than others?
 
First, an 18 year old is NOT a "kid." At 18, you're a legal adult. You're old enough to drive, you're old enough to ****, you're old enough to work, buy a house, and go to war. You're an ADULT. At that age, you need to take responsibility for yourself.

Second, it IS insulting. It's taking credit for someone else's accomplishments. Do you think some coach "developed" Tom Brady or Ed Reed? No... they put in the work themselves.

Blaming the teacher is the lamest thing ever. Develop your own **** self and handle your own **** ****. Anything else is just soft, plain and simple.
Lol is A 18 year old is a kid. Idc what the American legal says about age and adulthood based on 200 plus years understanding of the law.
Two part Question, have you played sports in HS and then at a collegiate level?
And second, if so can you identify the key differences of what it takes to succeed at each level?
 
First, an 18 year old is NOT a "kid." At 18, you're a legal adult. You're old enough to drive, you're old enough to ****, you're old enough to work, buy a house, and go to war. You're an ADULT. At that age, you need to take responsibility for yourself.

Second, it IS insulting. It's taking credit for someone else's accomplishments. Do you think some coach "developed" Tom Brady or Ed Reed? No... they put in the work themselves.

Blaming the teacher is the lamest thing ever. Develop your own **** self and handle your own **** ****. Anything else is just soft, plain and simple.
Get off the keyboard, gramps.
 
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It's culture/system.

I have an acquaintance who was S&C director for 2 programs. He said that once you build a system and teach kids the fundamentals of lifting, how to train, etc., the upper-classmen are teaching the freshmen. At that point, they're on auto-pilot. Bama can likely recruit kids with questionable character, habits . . . once they come in and see what is expected of them, either they ship up and meet the standards or they're out.

I know some folks are meh about our returning kids, but I for one and am pleased that guys like Cam, Harley, McCloud, etc. are back. I am hopeful that they establish a culture for the younger players in terms of work ethic, training, watching film, etc. And that the young guys carry the torch when they're at that stage.

I agree w/ the 1st paragraph, and ur acquaintance is obviously spot on.

It’s not like we haven’t had older guys come back. Shaq, Pinckney, Mike Jackson, JJ, Redwine, Finley are some of the guys that recently come to mind.

In the past, we’ve had older guys come back. Shaq used to say something, and I love Shaq, but it bothered tf outta me when he said it: he said, ‘we have a “standard” around here, and it’s up to us older guys to uphold that standard.’

The reason that statement bothered me b/c what was the f’ing standard? 9-4, 10-3, 7-6, or 6-7? The peddling of cachet phrases bothered me b/c it sounds good, but it’s empty words. Golden used to say the same thing. So my point being, when u have older guys who don’t know chit about a standard, then how r they leading? That’s y guys like McCloud, Carter, Cam etc. coming back doesn’t move me. They are not & have not been apart of a winning culture, so how can they lead or teach a “standard?”

Typically, it’s ur newer guys that need to buck a trend that their predecessors left. Our standard was broken around the class of ‘04. There’s been no imparting of knowledge or what it means to be apart of the U b/c the guys leading us don’t even fully grasp it.

We’ll need the class of 20 & 21 to break a vicious cycle, b/c the older guys we have now can’t impart chit, and I don’t blame them; it’s a culture they grew up in.
 
@Ethnicsands , it never ceases to amaze me of the number of people on this site who can’t answer simple questions.

warning: tl;dr

Unfortunately, most schools don’t develop. Like most sales people don’t sell, like most managers don’t manage — most coaches, S&C included, don’t coach. They’re ”coloring by numbers” and hoping for the best. Not necessarily incompetent, but not exactly capable either. Coaching is development. (Recruiting though part of a coaches job is not development — yet it’s brought up every time the topic turns to development.)

Development consists of two things: physical development and mental development. Physical development is measurable and should answer the question of whether the athlete is faster/stronger/more explosive. If they’re not, in comparison to high school, they haven’t been physically developed, or developed to the point to where they’re useful to the program.

Mental development is improving an “athletes IQ”. Recognizing patterns, play calls, balance, situations, weight shift, leverage, eyes and utilizing/overcoming/understanding them to your advantage. Richard Sherman was never the fastest corner, but he knew what to do — something developed athletes all share in common. Reading/watching Clemson talk about defense and they mention “eyes” and “eye discipline“ a thousand times … clearly they believe it’s taught and use 2/3-stars to prove it.

The issue: are these just self-directed and/or ”natural” athletes or are they coached/taught? Obviously the answer is both to an extent, but the prevailing sentiment of the board would imply that “you have to get the right kids” (which usually means better/higher starred kids that in essence do NOT have to be coached) — and I don’t believe that’s true. Any athlete can be made faster/stronger. Any. Every athlete can improve their “IQ”. Every. I’m NOT saying you can give every receiver Tyreek Hill speed or a Metcalfe body... but if kids are leaving your S&C after 3-5 years with similar numbers to when they arrived, then you’ve failed. If your OL can’t identify a blitz or your DL a screen, you’ve failed. If your LB constantly fall for miss direction or can’t defeat blocks, you’ve failed. If your QBs can’t run your offense? You’ve failed.

Your question. My belief: no. My standard for development is higher than “got drafted/made the practice squad”, My standard is significant contributor; they actually play in the NFL. And in the past 4 years Miami has produced very few of them (Temple, Buffalo and UCONN may have drafted more players in the top 4 rounds in the last 4 years than Miami. Hyperbole alert). Also (and this is important because every contributor isn’t going to make the league), have they improved physically/mentally on the college level? And from 3rd/4th year kids not being able to block/get a push, catch, tackle, defeat block, turn head or just understand situational football on a college level … Miami is middling — like **** near every other program in college football. Because a “developed” Miami, given the talent advantage Miami has over all ACC schools not named Clemson (with UNC on the way up and FSU on the way down, temporarily) would go 11-1, 12-0 every year had the kids been properly developed.
I disagree to a certain extent on the mental aspect...Football IQ, Having a Feel in basketball to make a play, having the correct approach at the plate at the right time in a big moment etc, can’t be taught. You can talk it, drill it and teach it but some guys, even if they have the requisite athleticism or are smart freeze up under the fire of competition. And the most successful of those players just have it. Very few have the physical and mental to dominate elite comp at this and the pro level...as a coach/ program you want to identify the guys with the athletic ability needed AND guys who love their craft and the mental aspect of the game. Because even at this level talent and coaching only takes u so far
 
@Ethnicsands , it never ceases to amaze me of the number of people on this site who can’t answer simple questions.

warning: tl;dr

Unfortunately, most schools don’t develop. Like most sales people don’t sell, like most managers don’t manage — most coaches, S&C included, don’t coach. They’re ”coloring by numbers” and hoping for the best. Not necessarily incompetent, but not exactly capable either. Coaching is development. (Recruiting though part of a coaches job is not development — yet it’s brought up every time the topic turns to development.)

Development consists of two things: physical development and mental development. Physical development is measurable and should answer the question of whether the athlete is faster/stronger/more explosive. If they’re not, in comparison to high school, they haven’t been physically developed, or developed to the point to where they’re useful to the program.

Mental development is improving an “athletes IQ”. Recognizing patterns, play calls, balance, situations, weight shift, leverage, eyes and utilizing/overcoming/understanding them to your advantage. Richard Sherman was never the fastest corner, but he knew what to do — something developed athletes all share in common. Reading/watching Clemson talk about defense and they mention “eyes” and “eye discipline“ a thousand times … clearly they believe it’s taught and use 2/3-stars to prove it.

The issue: are these just self-directed and/or ”natural” athletes or are they coached/taught? Obviously the answer is both to an extent, but the prevailing sentiment of the board would imply that “you have to get the right kids” (which usually means better/higher starred kids that in essence do NOT have to be coached) — and I don’t believe that’s true. Any athlete can be made faster/stronger. Any. Every athlete can improve their “IQ”. Every. I’m NOT saying you can give every receiver Tyreek Hill speed or a Metcalfe body... but if kids are leaving your S&C after 3-5 years with similar numbers to when they arrived, then you’ve failed. If your OL can’t identify a blitz or your DL a screen, you’ve failed. If your LB constantly fall for miss direction or can’t defeat blocks, you’ve failed. If your QBs can’t run your offense? You’ve failed.

Your question. My belief: no. My standard for development is higher than “got drafted/made the practice squad”, My standard is significant contributor; they actually play in the NFL. And in the past 4 years Miami has produced very few of them (Temple, Buffalo and UCONN may have drafted more players in the top 4 rounds in the last 4 years than Miami. Hyperbole alert). Also (and this is important because every contributor isn’t going to make the league), have they improved physically/mentally on the college level? And from 3rd/4th year kids not being able to block/get a push, catch, tackle, defeat block, turn head or just understand situational football on a college level … Miami is middling — like **** near every other program in college football. Because a “developed” Miami, given the talent advantage Miami has over all ACC schools not named Clemson (with UNC on the way up and FSU on the way down, temporarily) would go 11-1, 12-0 every year had the kids been properly developed.
That’s a good write up. It’s exactly why we have these discussions and are all so frustrated.
 
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