Development

[BoxingRobes]

I assume youre just saying par means average development. Obviously no development wouldn’t lead to draft picks because other schools are developing and HS rankings don’t guarantee nfl outcomes. I agree we’re about average in this categry.

I also think the nfl measure and ‘nflu’ monicker have confused people around the program. Our goal isn’t draft picks, it’s winning games in college. I think plenty of other programs have figured out how to find kids who won’t be nfl players but who will be really good college players. We’ve struggled at that model as a program.

Yeah man, we're just...ok.

I know you were looking for a more in depth discussion...I just don't have the energy for it, but I think that raw total pretty much sums it up for me. We get some Top 250 players in, spit out some Top 250 players...we're shooting par. Nothing special.

Feelings not facts -- I feel like Miami shooting par with the talent down here is like shooting par at Killian Greens. Meh. We were doing that in the 70s, too, and we were cheeks.

 

[TruCane81]

Do you think they're teaching some magic, secret, special techniques at Alabama that we aren't teaching at Miami? Not only that, but players here have access to all kinds of former NFL players who come back and help.

Coaches can provide the opportunity for players to get better, but in the end, it's on the player. It's up to the player to take advantage and make the most of the coaching.

If a player wants to get better at Miami, he can do that as well here as anywhere. The difference between a good player and a JAG comes down to two things - natural ability, and their own desire and work ethic to get better.

The “energy” a coach brings is a huge factor in the overall performance of his group. It isn’t always what you do, but the way you do it.

The devil is in the details. There are countless examples in the classroom, military and most other training venues where a groups performance changed significantly with a different teacher teaching the same material to the same group.

Coaches are not responsible for turning every player into a first round pick. They are responsible for ensuring they perform as a group to their talent level.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

And BTW, Butch didn't recruit Ray, Erickson did.

People overexaggerate Butch's "eye for talent" LOL, Butch simply had a talented coaching staff that did the grunt work...that's it, no more, no less.

Uh, yeah, that's not true.

You need to look into Butch/Pete's 5x7 notecard method. Those guys invented a system to track every kid in SoFla and compile all the data, including interviews with teachers/administrators/Pop Warner coaches, and a focus on things like leadership abilities and perserverance.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Yeah man, we're just...ok.

I know you were looking for a more in depth discussion...I just don't have the energy for it, but I think that raw total pretty much sums it up for me. We get some Top 250 players in, spit out some Top 250 players...we're shooting par. Nothing special.

Feelings not facts -- I feel like Miami shooting par with the talent down here is like shooting par at Killian Greens. Meh. We were doing that in the 70s, too, and we were cheeks.

I've written this many times on this site, but it's worse than you say. Miami football put out much better NFL players in the '70s than the 2010s. That's a pathetic truth. We put out essentially zero impact NFL players in the 2010s. (The only guy from Miami who was an impact NFL player was Jimmy Graham (2010 draft, came to UM in mid-'00s and he was recruited here for basketball).

Anyhow, as I see it, there are a few parts to evaluating, a few parts to recruiting, a few parts to developing, and they're easier to discuss if people can isolate what they're talking about. It's all subjective categorization I guess but here's how it breaks down for me:

Evaluations: physical development potential, readiness to play, skill-level (technique), football IQ/instincts, personal attributes (attitude, long-term drive, cultural fit), position match or switch potential.

Recruiting: winning your share (or more) of the guys you prioritize based on evaluations and probability; selling; changing minds; closing. You can be a good recruiter but target the wrong kids, either because your evals were off or your probability was mis-assessed. T Rob might be a great recruiter, but having him recruit an OL from Iowa is not going to be a good test of that. Priorities and probabilities matter a lot. Spend your time on highest and best uses.

Development: Physical (S&C), technical skills, mental understanding of game and position; also includes learning new positions at times.

Outcomes: live action outcomes that are a result of both the above and coaching, scheme, game planning, play calling and all the other factors that go into live action.

Too often on these discussions, people blend and blame across the areas. Try to talk development, people blame coaching or recruiting, just for example. Try to talk evaluations, people talk recruiting. They're different processes, different skill-sets.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Uh, yeah, that's not true.

You need to look into Butch/Pete's 5x7 notecard method. Those guys invented a system to track every kid in SoFla and compile all the data, including interviews with teachers/administrators/Pop Warner coaches, and a focus on things like leadership abilities and perserverance.

It goes way back before Pete. Butch was working alongside Jimmy in Miami and Dallas. He learned from the goat and became his peer.

 

[Rellyrell]

The biggest key to development is confidence. To play football well, you ask guys to make sound decisions INSTANTLY. The ability to make those decisions is created by a mix of factors, but true internal belief that success can be achieved is the foundation all those other factors are built on. If you don’t believe, your physical abilities, knowledge, and time put in will be inconsequential.

Miami has been hampered by poor game planning and strategy for a long time. We clung to complicated “pro style” systems that didn’t match the athletes we were recruiting. We are the national champions of square pegging players and running head first into our weaknesses. When you do this I layers lose confidence in themselves and their coaches and only the most self motivated and poised can overcome the ensuing disfunction.

Outside the elite teams, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Most teams play to their blue chip level. Some play slightly above it, but more play well below. Miami has been in the latter group unfortunately.

Culture is the most important issue and is literally determined by having the right head coach IF there is no interference from the administration and boosters. If the administration and boosters have created a toxic environment, you are dead before you were born. So we will assume that these are not a problem to move the discussion.

The job of the head coach is to make everyone under his authority believe that success in his stated goals are attainable. Without this, nothing else can save the program. People don’t work hard when they are poorly led and/trained. It’s the 10-80-10 rule. With a properly designed system top 10%ers can make the top guys in the 80% look like top 10%ers. Bottom 10%ers get shown the door.

We use terms like “discipline” ,“hard work”, “dogs” too often to coddle bad coaches with poor intangibles and terrible strategy. Even if they teach the right technique, they will fail because the structure of the program isn’t optimized for winning. The idea that everyone is self motivated and self reliant is a fallacy spewed by people that are mainly conservatives who are too stubborn Or lazy to do the hard work of FIXING SYSTEMS and leading 80%ers properly.

The championship coaches understand 10-80-10. They build their systems around it, getting as many Top 10% personalities as they can and then giving believable leadership to the rest. This type structure produces RESULTS and those results reinforce the belief of everyone in the organization.

I don’t like using nfl results as the litmus test of college development. The reasons why are obvious. The sign of a well developed team is fundamental soundness and playing hard through adversity most of the time. When a team does this, THEN you can judge their athletic talent. We are getting better and playing through adversity. The fundamentals need a lot of work though. Give us that and some better athletes, we will perform much closer to the Miami standard.

Ur paragraph is absolutely spot on. So Richard Sherman is not only my frat, but also my homeboy from Compton. Actually knew his father b4 I knew him. Anyways, what set Richard apart from everyone else was this mindset he was better than u. Didn’t matter if u were faster, didn’t matter if u were quicker, he had uber confidence he was better than u. He also played at a solid high school program at Compton Dominguez where they enjoyed both basketball & football success & he competed against the best in high school. When he went to Stanford & played for Harbaugh, Harbaugh didn’t play that coddle bull chit. His dad was like Harbaugh had the mindset if U’re the best, then prove it. Always had the #1 go against the #1. Rich wanted that, he had that confidence & Harbaugh further fostered it to borderline, OK not borderline, but true ****iness. Lol.

So it didn’t matter if Rich was slower than u in a foot race; he knew technique & IQ wise, he was better than u. That confidence was fostered. Nothing is worst when a player feels defeated or overthink the moment the ball is snapped. That’s an automatic L.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Ur paragraph is absolutely spot on. So Richard Sherman is not only my frat, but also my homeboy from Compton. Actually knew his father b4 I knew him. Anyways, what set Richard apart from everyone else was this mindset he was better than u. Didn’t matter if u were faster, didn’t matter if u were quicker, he had uber confidence he was better than u. He also played at a solid high school program at Compton Dominguez where they enjoyed both basketball & football success & he competed against the best in high school. When he went to Stanford & played for Harbaugh, Harbaugh didn’t play that coddle bull chit. His dad was like Harbaugh had the mindset if U’re the best, then prove it. Always had the #1 go against the #1. Rich wanted that, he had that confidence & Harbaugh further fostered it to borderline, OK not borderline, but true ****iness. Lol.

So it didn’t matter if Rich was slower than u in a foot race; he knew technique & IQ wise, he was better than u. That confidence was fostered. Nothing is worst when a player feels defeated or overthink the moment the ball is snapped. That’s an automatic L.

Confidence is a double-edged sword. T Rob talked well about knowing yourself and your limitations in order to know what to do / work on. The answer isn't always work on your limitations. Some things you can't change. Size, speed, say. You can work out, but if you're not really fast, you're not really fast. If you're not quick twitch, you ain't. His point was once you know your assets and liabilities, you can figure out what strategy to work on. He's right. I'm not disagreeing with the importance of confidence, just noting that blind confidence and lead plenty of people astray. I don't know Richard Sherman like you do but he strikes me as really thoughtful and self-aware, so I'm sure he knows his deficiencies even if he won't say them all out loud.

 

[Coach Macho]

So when you have top talented guys attend Bama with the top coaches, support system etc etc and they don’t pan out what is the reason? Or a kid in the pros with all the talent and a professional atmosphere don’t pan out?
There’s are certain guys who just have “IT” when it comes to performance. And it can’t be taught. If it could there would be way more of Kobe’s, jeters, MJs, lebrons etc etc. and imo opinion a lot of it is self accountability, work ethic, of course elite traits physically, and a hunger to get better.
Preparation is key but at the end of the day it’s about performance during competition. Some guys just shrink. Others rise above it

Some guys (like the ones at Bama) don't pan out because they lack the intangibles to be good football players.
College coaches recruit the best athletes. They don't have time to dig deep into a kid's personality, his level of football smarts, the intangibles, etc.

Their whole squad is full of freak athletes. They all get good coaching. The ones who rise to the top and excel are the ones who have traits that the coaches can't control. (the intangibles)

 

[TheOriginalCane]

It goes way back before Pete. Butch was working alongside Jimmy in Miami and Dallas. He learned from the goat and became his peer.

Cut the crap and cut the attempt to cover up for your bad post.

What Butch/Pete did was their own creation. Butch wasn't in charge of recruiting under JJ. You can't act as if Butch came up with some college recruiting methodology during his time coaching in the NFL.

Five minutes ago, you were claiming that Butch's assistants did everything. Now you are acting as if Butch learned everything from JJ.

Just stop it.

 

[Rellyrell]

Confidence is a double-edged sword. T Rob talked well about knowing yourself and your limitations in order to know what to do / work on. The answer isn't always work on your limitations. Some things you can't change. Size, speed, say. You can work out, but if you're not really fast, you're not really fast. If you're not quick twitch, you ain't. His point was once you know your assets and liabilities, you can figure out what strategy to work on. He's right. I'm not disagreeing with the importance of confidence, just noting that blind confidence and lead plenty of people astray. I don't know Richard Sherman like you do but he strikes me as really thoughtful and self-aware, so I'm sure he knows his deficiencies even if he won't say them all out loud.

U’re actually furthering my point. Again, Rich knew what his strengths & limitations were. Ppl forget he’s a legit smart dude, moms didn’t play that. So what were his strengths: Play recognition, length, bump. Limitations: quickness & long speed

So by formation, he could diagnose the probability of a play design. Therefore, he already has an advantage. If he was tasked to cover a smaller player, he would jam them up, negating their speed, so now he has a step above the route, so by the time the ball is released, he’s even with the speedster.

A player gotta be aware of their strengths & weaknesses which if u r, that will make u more comfortable on the field. Even if u get beat, it’s not a deal breaker. U just congratulate that man & realize next time I got him.

Imo, coaching can help foster a realization of strengths & weakness. Sometimes it takes brutal honesty to help a player understand their strengths & weaknesses. In high school, u may have been the fastest on the team or in ur division, but at the collegiate level, u realize ur athleticism is on the same playing field or some times, it may not be close to being on the same field as others! So what other things are they good at, and u hone in on that.

On the other hand, if u got everyone thinking they r doing great, great practices, u run 20, u run 20, u run 20, everyone is running 20; then come game time & u get smacked dead in the mouth as a guy fly by u or u get picked up by an OLman b/c U’re not as strong as u think, well then u witness demoralization. That’s hard to recover from.

 

[SWFLHurricane]

It goes way back before Pete. Butch was working alongside Jimmy in Miami and Dallas. He learned from the goat and became his peer.

And surpassed his peer in the end....25 1st rounders are more than JJ...Howard and Erickson put into the NFL together....

 

[SWFLHurricane]

It goes way back before Pete. Butch was working alongside Jimmy in Miami and Dallas. He learned from the goat and became his peer.

And surpassed his peer in the end....25 1st rounders are more than JJ...Howard and Erickson put into the NFL together

Cut the crap and cut the attempt to cover up for your bad post.

What Butch/Pete did was their own creation. Butch wasn't in charge of recruiting under JJ. You can't act as if Butch came up with some college recruiting methodology during his time coaching in the NFL.

Five minutes ago, you were claiming that Butch's assistants did everything. Now you are acting as if Butch learned everything from JJ.

Just stop it.

That wasnt @Ethnicsands ....that was @CaneSince4Ever who said that stupidity....

 

[SWFLHurricane]

Lol at Butch's assistants being Elite Recruiters....who tf do you think hired them??....Pagano was a GA at UM in 86 (with Tubberville)...he had a close association with Butch before 95.....
Ask any Asst coach under Butch about his uncanny eye for talent...

 

[JD08]

When you're trying to bring down the guy who assembled the greatest team in the history of college football.

 

[Tetragrammaton Cane]

Some guys (like the ones at Bama) don't pan out because they lack the intangibles to be good football players.
College coaches recruit the best athletes. They don't have time to dig deep into a kid's personality, his level of football smarts, the intangibles, etc.

Their whole squad is full of freak athletes. They all get good coaching. The ones who rise to the top and excel are the ones who have traits that the coaches can't control. (the intangibles)

Athletes rise for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes, it’s because the guy ahead of them graduated or got hurt; sometimes they had to transfer for a fresh set of eyes to evaluate their talent or learn to become more confident.

They all get good culture. Accountability on every level. Your position coach is being coached. Because you have to remember that a bunch of failed coaches have entered Saban’s Finishing School for Coaches. They magically became better or they learned how to look for and coach the details? In their case, it’s that and an overwhelming talent advantage.

When I look at Bama stars who seemed “to rise to the top” and turned out to be less than interested pro players it makes me think that coaching DID control it. Looking at speed skating’s, Dan Jansen and Track and Field’s, Asafa Powell, I’m hesitant to put it all on just being a “freak”.

 

[BoxingRobes]

I've written this many times on this site, but it's worse than you say. Miami football put out much better NFL players in the '70s than the 2010s. That's a pathetic truth. We put out essentially zero impact NFL players in the 2010s. (The only guy from Miami who was an impact NFL player was Jimmy Graham (2010 draft, came to UM in mid-'00s and he was recruited here for basketball).

Anyhow, as I see it, there are a few parts to evaluating, a few parts to recruiting, a few parts to developing, and they're easier to discuss if people can isolate what they're talking about. It's all subjective categorization I guess but here's how it breaks down for me:

Evaluations: physical development potential, readiness to play, skill-level (technique), football IQ/instincts, personal attributes (attitude, long-term drive, cultural fit), position match or switch potential.

Recruiting: winning your share (or more) of the guys you prioritize based on evaluations and probability; selling; changing minds; closing. You can be a good recruiter but target the wrong kids, either because your evals were off or your probability was mis-assessed. T Rob might be a great recruiter, but having him recruit an OL from Iowa is not going to be a good test of that. Priorities and probabilities matter a lot. Spend your time on highest and best uses.

Development: Physical (S&C), technical skills, mental understanding of game and position; also includes learning new positions at times.

Outcomes: live action outcomes that are a result of both the above and coaching, scheme, game planning, play calling and all the other factors that go into live action.

Too often on these discussions, people blend and blame across the areas. Try to talk development, people blame coaching or recruiting, just for example. Try to talk evaluations, people talk recruiting. They're different processes, different skill-sets.

Oh, I definitely agree with you about the quality of player we were putting out in the 70s.

We were even putting out very high NFL Draft picks (Eddie Edwards, Harrah, Foreman, Burgess Owens, OJ Anderson). We've had two guys drafted that high in the past 15 years (Antrel and Ereck Flowers...and they aren't near the quality of the above 70s players in the NFL)...thats crazy to me. Miami was a sub-.500 team in the 70s.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

And surpassed his peer in the end....25 1st rounders are more than JJ...Howard and Erickson put into the NFL together

That wasnt @Ethnicsands ....that was @CaneSince4Ever who said that stupidity....

Sorry if I conflated Ethnicsands and CaneSince4Ever, but there are just SO MANY porsters who have no idea what Butch did and like to diminish the man.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Cut the crap and cut the attempt to cover up for your bad post.

What Butch/Pete did was their own creation. Butch wasn't in charge of recruiting under JJ. You can't act as if Butch came up with some college recruiting methodology during his time coaching in the NFL.

Five minutes ago, you were claiming that Butch's assistants did everything. Now you are acting as if Butch learned everything from JJ.

Just stop it.

You may have a mental issue. What bad post am I covering up for? Everyone else here is having a good discussion. I have all the respect in the world for Butch as an evaluator, but it's a fact (and a good one) that he was evaluating by JJ's side at UM and then again at Dallas.

By the way, you're smoking crack if you think I claimed that Butch's assistants did everything. You may also have a reading comprehension problem.

All that aside, I have no idea why anyone would deny that Butch learned a lot by Jimmy's side. It's just a fact. Since not one person has said he learned 'everything' by JJ's side, I don't even understand what you're sputtering about. But then, neither do you, I guess.

 

[Ethnicsands]

And surpassed his peer in the end....25 1st rounders are more than JJ...Howard and Erickson put into the NFL together....

I have utmost respect for both JJ and Butch as evaluators. JJ also rebuilt a 1-15 NFL team into a dynasty that but for Jerry Jones' ego would have been the Patriots. His eval skills were both college and NFL. I credit Butch in there too because he was in Dallas helping them draft and sort.

Butch's results at UM were obviously unrivaled. But the goal of evals isn't first round picks -- it's college success. So I'm not sure I give as big an edge as you do on this topic. JJ won his title, shoulda won a couple more, won a couple for Dennis, then built Dallas.

 

[Ethnicsands]

And surpassed his peer in the end....25 1st rounders are more than JJ...Howard and Erickson put into the NFL together

That wasnt @Ethnicsands ....that was @CaneSince4Ever who said that stupidity....

That explains it! Was wondering why he was sputtering at me.