Combine Field Trip

[apfenny3]

With so much money involved it's a given there will be tons of shady people involved. I know people get dazzled by a big personality and lots of promises, but if my son needed an agent (and was spineless enough to let me pick) I'd go with someone who laid it out like you have. Probably not you (anybody who fits in here as well as you do probably shouldn't be trusted), but someone like you.


But seriously, I'm confident you're going to do well for yourself.

haha thank you I appreciate it. I'm hungry, driven and passionate

 

[CaneSB]

Sorry if this comes off harsh but recommending to not be represented by an agent is ridiculous. You are over simplifying a very complex process that involve hundreds of variables and events that no 21 year old or their mother (unless she is an agent) is qualified or experienced to navigate without representation. There are ton of good agents/agencies and they handle more than just the negotiation of a contract. Maybe not having an agent is better than having a bad agent, but a good agent is worth the fee. At a minimum, it removes a ton of distractions and allows a player to focus on doing their job really well which is the ultimate revenue maximization plan.

Second, your mother shouldn't be managing your career, especially negotiating endorsement deals with corporations on your behalf. Cut the cord and grow up.

 

[g8rh8rMD]

I'm sure you will talk about this when you guys discuss the options in more detail after the season, but I'd heavily recommend not getting an agent, at the very least for his rookie contract (Lamar Jackson is doing it this yr). His rookie contract is the only one he's guaranteed to get in his life And if he's a 1st round draft pick he'd make a minimum of $9M over 4 yrs.. $270k of which would go to an agent (3%) thats enough money for many people to live 4-5yrs off of.. Now I'm sure Pete and apfenny would disagree with me here, but you absolutely do NOT need an agent in today's NFL, and that can't be more true than for your rookie contract which already has a pay scale in place. Literally all you need to do is:
1. Try to get it as fully guaranteed all 4yrs as possible (1st rounders should only sign ones that are 100% guaranteed all 4yrs).
2. try to get at as much of your bonus within your 1st yr (this is basically what Bosa held out for because chargers were being ****s and didn't want to pay Bosa his bonus until his 2nd yr which is bs).
3. Try to have as little offset language as possible, though only 1st rounder can usually get no offset language (if he gets cut and signs with another team).
4. Don't sign a contract that voids for suspension/FINES. Probably won't be able to leverage not including suspensions, but you definitely gotta fight to not include any voids for fines. Allowing a team to void a potential 4th yr of your fully guaranteed salary just because you showed up 5mins late to one meeting is just bs.

You should really think hard about not getting an agent, and instead get a lawyer to look over your contract for a one time fee...which will be much cheaper. Then maybe you or someone you guys trust can serve as his manager or something. The ONLY thing not having an agent for his rookie contract will be subpar for is potential endorsement deals. but obviously companies will reach out to him/you/whoever his manager is and you can find other similar players that signed endorsement deals or reach out to company's yourself.
Even after your rookie contract, all NFL contracts are public on Spotrac.com, they even have a "market value" tab that lets you check what a free agents market value is. And you obviously will fight for as much guaranteed money as possible. Like if you sign a 5yr-100m deal with only $10m guaranteed, that means you only signed a 1yr-$10m deal. It's not too complicated.

Hope he stays all 4 yrs, but if he's a 1st rounder, he's gotta go. Don't listen to what the agents say he will be.

Agree to disagree.

• The Q's are about the last family that need to be lectured to on how they handle their business. Many players assuredly go into this process unprepared or under prepared. Shaq will not be one of them, in my estimation.
• Hire a professional to handle your business. It's FAR more expensive NOT to. You don't get anywhere really good in life (at least the lawful, moral way) by cutting corners. Be thrifty and frugal, but don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
• Yes, hiring a shyster agent based on who they hang with, the car they drive, or how hot their runner is, is worse than representing yourself. But do your due diligence, negotiate with the agent for a lower commission on the first contract, check references (ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS CHECK REFERENCES), and hire a **** pro to represent your interests and guide you through the process.

This advice is not tailored to football players, it goes for any facet of life. There is nothing at all wrong with specialization of skills. It's what our society is built on. Don't be naive and blind about who you work with, but surrounding oneself with great people, is what turns good to great. Just ask Jimmy Johnson, Steve Jobs, etc, etc...

 

[Cajuncane]

ir

haha thank you I appreciate it. I'm hungry, driven and passionate

I heard that the NFL Players assoc.would represent someone like Jackson even if he didn't have an agent.

Is this reprensentation just with a lawyer to protect him with his contract or do they have actual agent types that take on these duties.

Reason I ask is if the NFLPA IS going to represent him would that not be more reason to go without an agent on his first contract??

Now the many pluses you bring up (stuff outside of football such as endorsements etc) that an agent has access too is worth something IF the player is the personable type that would garner national recognition for commercials or local endorsements is definitely worth something.Sometimes more than the contract depending on the player.Chances are Jackson's mama isn't going to have access to or even know about these types of opportunities.

But VERY FEW players are going to get the big profile endorsements during that first contract.These normally come along after they're established as a " household" name from their accomplishments those first couple years.

I guess there is a reason 99% of players do have an agent.They wouldn't have them if they didn't serve a purpose but as Cali said you have to wonder if having one during the first contract is necessary IF the NFLPA is going to get behind you with quality help.

 

[Calinative]

Sorry if this comes off harsh but recommending to not be represented by an agent is ridiculous. You are over simplifying a very complex process that involve hundreds of variables and events that no 21 year old or their mother (unless she is an agent) is qualified or experienced to navigate without representation. There are ton of good agents/agencies and they handle more than just the negotiation of a contract. Maybe not having an agent is better than having a bad agent, but a good agent is worth the fee. At a minimum, it removes a ton of distractions and allows a player to focus on doing their job really well which is the ultimate revenue maximization plan.

Second, your mother shouldn't be managing your career, especially negotiating endorsement deals with corporations on your behalf. Cut the cord and grow up.

glad to read you drank the cool aid the nfl and agents have been selling.
You do not NEED an agent. whether you think they earn/are worth their money is one thing, I don't think they do on rookie contracts, you can disagree. But you don't NEED them.

 

[apfenny3]

ir


I heard that the NFL Players assoc.would represent someone like Jackson even if he didn't have an agent.

Is this reprensentation just with a lawyer to protect him with his contract or do they have actual agent types that take on these duties.

Reason I ask is if the NFLPA IS going to represent him would that not be more reason to go without an agent on his first contract??

Now the many pluses you bring up (stuff outside of football such as endorsements etc) that an agent has access too is worth something IF the player is the personable type that would garner national recognition for commercials or local endorsements is definitely worth something.Sometimes more than the contract depending on the player.Chances are Jackson's mama isn't going to have access to or even know about these types of opportunities.

But VERY FEW players are going to get the big profile endorsements during that first contract.These normally come along after they're established as a " household" name from their accomplishments those first couple years.

I guess there is a reason 99% of players do have an agent.They wouldn't have them if they didn't serve a purpose but as Cali said you have to wonder if having one during the first contract is necessary IF the NFLPA is going to get behind you with quality help.

I'm having trouble finding info on this, if you have a link you can send please do. Without more knowledge on that, my assumption would be they'd get him in front of one of their lawyers to read the contract. Most mocks have him around late 1st to sometime in the 2nd round, but obviously there's always surprises. If he goes in one of these spots, I would have 0 faith that he'd be able to negotiate a better or equal guaranteed deal with his team than any of the players drafted near him. And he'll lose more potential money than he would've lost having a competent agent.

Being a quarterback and Heisman winner will help with endorsements, and you're right the more established you are in the league, the more he'd make on that front. But I have no doubt I could get multiple times more endorsement money for him than his mom could if I was representing him.

 

[Cajuncane]

I'm having trouble finding info on this, if you have a link you can send please do. Without more knowledge on that, my assumption would be they'd get him in front of one of their lawyers to read the contract. Most mocks have him around late 1st to sometime in the 2nd round, but obviously there's always surprises. If he goes in one of these spots, I would have 0 faith that he'd be able to negotiate a better or equal guaranteed deal with his team than any of the players drafted near him. And he'll lose more potential money than he would've lost having a competent agent.

Being a quarterback and Heisman winner will help with endorsements, and you're right the more established you are in the league, the more he'd make on that front. But I have no doubt I could get multiple times more endorsement money for him than his mom could if I was representing him.

They were talking about it last night on NFL Live.Was said that it made sense to some because the PA would be there for him to help his momma with everything.

I figured it was just with an attorney to protect him with the contract I just didn’t know to what lengths they would go to help him.Thought you might know.

 

[Cajuncane]

They were talking about it last night on NFL Live.Was said that it made sense to some because the PA would be there for him to help his momma with everything.

I figured it was just with an attorney to protect him with the contract I just didn’t know to what lengths they would go to help him.Thought you might know.And there’s no doubt that an agent is going to help him along farther and faster in the endorsement field but if you’re not the Heisman Trophy winner he’s probably not going to get a lot of endorsements right off.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Spoke with Shaq, Ahmon and Joe on Saturday night. They were all have a great time... and what I was thinking about the trip was actually the case. From the onset it was explained that they were not there randomly, they were there because the are projected not only to be at the combine next year, but are projected by some to be in the 32 picks of the 2019 Draft. I asked Shaq was Dexter Lawrence and Ed Olivier there and of course he told me that they were. They had seminars on Social Media the does and don't.... like clean up all your profiles... be careful on who you follow... birds of a feather flock together..., How to find Agents, How Agents are going to find you, Girls..Girls...Girls... Being smart with your money (don't spend it before you get it)... It sounds as if it was very educational. Shaq said there were 5 Linebackers... he was the only ILB the others were OLB/Edges. Haven't talked with him since he got back... interested in what else he has to say. My predictions... Zach stays... Shaq 50/50... Mike 50/50

I would trust a random forum member on this site to evaluate a draft slot for your son over that of an agent.

With that said, from experience, a sit down with the coaches...especially veteran coaches along with the draft advisory provide the most honest feedback without overselling. As you know, draft advisory is mostly front office personnel, not the coaches. You won't get any NFL Coach feedback until its over, but they don't even know who any of these players are until the combine, for the most part. For a select few teams, Shrine and Senior Bowl.

Also, do your own research...there are a few very well respected guys, even on Twitter, if you know who they are, that can provide honest feedback. Most are quack jobs, but there are a few that are good.

One question...is Shaq close to obtaining his degree?

 

[UknowWhat]

I agree with some of what both of you are saying... I have to say I lean more to @calinative umstudent , actually you both pointed out that the CBA has basically slotted the pay scale ... meaning if you are picked here then you are plugged in to this salary. So what is the agent going to negotiate other than the guarantee and bonus payout.. where precedents will be your point of argument. I also agree that pick 1- 64 will not need an agent where 4 - 7th round picks may be better served with an agent. My brother is an Attorney and has a couple of associates that are Contract Attorneys and a two that are Tax Attorneys (which is also a factor to consider). The player will determine 90% of all his contracts with his play on the field and his conduct off. Don't get me wrong I value @apfenny3 position and can see communicating with him some more when the time is appropriate. Ohhh yeah when these agencies front money for these kids pre-draft workouts... its almost like they are spending their money with interest before they make a dime.... and what happens if you get injured and don't even workout at the combine? I agree 100% that all will eventually need an agent if they make it out of their first contract. But for now I want a Natty... Got a letter in the mail for Shaq today, to buy a class ring... I threw it in the garbage and my wife asked why.... I said he is going to win one... for free.

 

[Calinative]

I agree with some of what both of you are saying... I have to say I lean more to @calinative umstudent , actually you both pointed out that the CBA has basically slotted the pay scale ... meaning if you are picked here then you are plugged in to this salary. So what is the agent going to negotiate other than the guarantee and bonus payout.. where precedents will be your point of argument. I also agree that pick 1- 64 will not need an agent where 4 - 7th round picks may be better served with an agent. My brother is an Attorney and has a couple of associates that are Contract Attorneys and a two that are Tax Attorneys (which is also a factor to consider). The player will determine 90% of all his contracts with his play on the field and his conduct off. Don't get me wrong I value @apfenny3 position and can see communicating with him some more when the time is appropriate. Ohhh yeah when these agencies front money for these kids pre-draft workouts... its almost like they are spending their money with interest before they make a dime.... and what happens if you get injured and don't even workout at the combine? I agree 100% that all will eventually need an agent if they make it out of their first contract. But for now I want a Natty... Got a letter in the mail for Shaq today, to buy a class ring... I threw it in the garbage and my wife asked why.... I said he is going to win one... for free.

Got a letter in the mail for Shaq today, to buy a class ring... I threw it in the garbage and my wife asked why.... I said he is going to win one... for free

AYY lets get it

 

[UknowWhat]

I would trust a random forum member on this site to evaluate a draft slot for your son over that of an agent.

With that said, from experience, a sit down with the coaches...especially veteran coaches along with the draft advisory provide the most honest feedback without overselling. As you know, draft advisory is mostly front office personnel, not the coaches. You won't get any NFL Coach feedback until its over, but they don't even know who any of these players are until the combine, for the most part. For a select few teams, Shrine and Senior Bowl.

Also, do your own research...there are a few very well respected guys, even on Twitter, if you know who they are, that can provide honest feedback. Most are quack jobs, but there are a few that are good.

One question...is Shaq close to obtaining his degree?

Yes... that's another thing... He could be eligible for graduation as soon as May 2019. I wouldn't be hurt if he stayed and got his degree.

 

[UknowWhat]

@apfenny3 your example with Artie proves a point that an agent isn't always going to make the best deal for their client. And I'm sure Jackson's mom will not try and lead his marketing campaign but rather help him find some one to help him with that... the same with financial planning and contract proofing. I just have this fear with these mega Agency... a player could find himself working for the Agency versus the Agency working for him. I fear their bottom line is the most important figure in a client relationship. And who will muster the most attention... this years 2nd Round Pick or their other client JJ Watt and when you combine the fact that a number of Agencies are one stop shops... contracts, marketing, financial planning, mentoring etc... a newb could find himself on that back burner for a number of things.... Again not bashing Agents, but being a conscious shopper and would welcome your rebuttal.

 

[apfenny3]

@apfenny3 your example with Artie proves a point that an agent isn't always going to make the best deal for their client. And I'm sure Jackson's mom will not try and lead his marketing campaign but rather help him find some one to help him with that... the same with financial planning and contract proofing. I just have this fear with these mega Agency... a player could find himself working for the Agency versus the Agency working for him. I fear their bottom line is the most important figure in a client relationship. And who will muster the most attention... this years 2nd Round Pick or their other client JJ Watt and when you combine the fact that a number of Agencies are one stop shops... contracts, marketing, financial planning, mentoring etc... a newb could find himself on that back burner for a number of things.... Again not bashing Agents, but being a conscious shopper and would welcome your rebuttal.

If the decision to go with an agent is made, I think trust has to be the biggest factor, along with that comes morals, work ethic and desire. As I'm sure you've seen, some recent players are signing with guys because they're 'flashy' and give off an entertaining persona. This should be business and personal relationship, not one built off of the perception of who might be fun or who can't sell themselves so they have to throw cash out to become appealing. I understand taking a loss leader and paying for a player's training as that is now expected, but agents offering any other inducements just shows me they aren't confident in themselves, and if you're not confident in your brand/product/abilities then how can you be expected to go head to head with an NFL executive for your client and do a great job? Some guys have negotiated big contracts and years of experience, but also many lawsuits or scandals involving former clients, which can be easily found. As you mentioned, you're also seeing some players signing with agents who have 100 clients. Sure they have experience and have been around the game, but do you think they're really taking their time and negotiating hard deals that long into their careers, when they have so many other clients to handle?

As I'm weighing my future job paths I have those same fears, do I go with a small agency or even alone where there's less security but I have more of a voice, or a mega firm where my job is likely safe, but I'm just a number and have little say? I think football contract and marketing negotiations under one roof is beneficial, and can allow the player to work with the same person/ few people rather than another whole team. But I think finances should be separate and act as a form of checks and balances.

I think its all up to the agents personality, his/her background and work ethic. Everybody starts somewhere, Shaq showed up to UM as a freshman with no experience and more experienced guys ahead of him, but he had the mentality and work ethic that he would not be denied, and ultimately he was named the starter and the rest is history. If I was in the NFL, that's the personality trait I would look for when determining who is going to negotiate on my behalf. And I don't see it as bashing, everyone is entitled to their opinions and its a big decision to make. There are some very bad apples in the game that unfortunately give the entire industry a bad rap.

Edit: A thing I missed, if Lamar Jackson stays without an agent; is he going to have the balls for lack of a better term or confidence to tell his GM "no" or whatever it may be when negotiating his offset language? Some guys might but I'd think the vast majority don't. His lawyer can sift through his contract and make any suggestion, but Lamar is the one that has to make the demands to his employer, then go back and forth and listen to his employer tell him why he isn't good enough or worth changing the contract language. Then he has to play for said employer for years and constantly be reminded of what this man truly thinks about him and his worth.

 

[StoneWallLoungeCane]

You bring up good points, I agree with some and obviously disagree with others. First 3% is the maximum, but this fee is negotiable. Your comment, "That's enough for most people to live comfortable for 4-5 years," that number is divided by the number of years of the contract, 4, which on a 3% commission averages to $67,500 per year. Certainly good money but I'd argue that's not exorbitant. As you said, the last CBA has created the slotted spots for rookies and the negotiation portion of an agent's job is much less on the first contract. Although you see a wide range of guaranteed money and some players are getting much less percentage guaranteed than players selected later than them. The offset language can be very tricky and one word you miss can literally change the entire contract, that's why I'd argue someone such as myself who will have a law degree and experience reading contracts can greatly help with that.

Another aspect negotiating if a player doesn't have an agent: It can be very awkward or disheartening for a player to have to negotiate with his employer, and listen to all of the negatives they'll bring up to his face when negotiating against him. Besides the player himself, only a registered agent can negotiate with a team. So Lamar Jackson's mom cannot speak to them on his behalf. The same holds true with a lawyer, he can review the contract, but in a back in forth negotiation, only the player would be able to actually communicate with the team.

As you mentioned, endorsements will be much harder to obtain without someone actively seeking and negotiating fair opportunities. Yes some may come to the player and happen organically, but for the most part this takes a lot of extensive work in reaching out to companies and selling your client.

Another factor is whether the player chooses to train at his school, or go to a facility, in which case the agent will cover the expense. Other benefits are having someone as your spokesperson/representative, which Lamar Jackson really could've used this weekend. Someone who can help guide you through the process, but is more impartial since they are not a relative. Also you have 3-4 years less of a rapport and trust for the rest of your career if you go your first contract without an agent.

To your last comment, that is absolutely correct. I am sick of reading about agents telling a guy they can get him into a higher round to entice them to leave early. The only sort of pull an agent can have in this realm is if he has an undrafted free agent guy, and he can get him a look or camp tryout if he has a good relationship with a scout or executive. Other than that, there is not one agent on the planet, no matter his or her experience, and no matter how close they are with NFL executives, that will get a player drafted higher. NFL front offices invest a ton of money in their scouting departments and go by what they see and feel. The risks are far too great for them to draft a guy just because so and so is their agent. Any agent that makes a promise like this is lying to the player's and family's face, and nothing else they have to say should be taken seriously.

I didn’t know that only registered agents can negotiate with teams but it makes sense. I would say having an agent, and especially an agent that is a lawyer, would make a huge difference. But obviously you need to be careful and that’s where a support system matters. If you’re a kid 21 years old..not sophisticated, you aren’t going to know what’s what. You don’t know what the custom is or what’s typical. You don’t know what is a good deal or what is a bad deal. And the added level of sophistication that an agent with a bar license can provide is invaluable.

My advice is to get some actual experience practicing law if possible because that experience is really invaluable and there’s a lot of questions and services you can provide that other agents cannot.

 

[apfenny3]

I didn’t know that only registered agents can negotiate with teams but it makes sense. I would say having an agent, and especially an agent that is a lawyer, would make a huge difference. But obviously you need to be careful and that’s where a support system matters. If you’re a kid 21 years old..not sophisticated, you aren’t going to know what’s what. You don’t know what the custom is or what’s typical. You don’t know what is a good deal or what is a bad deal. And the added level of sophistication that an agent with a bar license can provide is invaluable.

My advice is to get some actual experience practicing law if possible because that experience is really invaluable and there’s a lot of questions and services you can provide that other agents cannot.

I respect your advice and opinions. I'll have a law degree in May and will be 24 when I pass my certification. I'm young but I think that's an advantage for me. I'm outspoken when necessary and not afraid to share my mind, and back up why I believe I'm right. My whole life I've had to prove people wrong and did what I was told I had no chance at because I'm relentless in what I set my mind to. That's how I got to Miami and eventually saw the field as a 5'7" white boy from Indiana that was unathletic compared to most of the other people here. I study NFL contracts nearly every day so I know what the market is like and what deals are good and bad. I won't argue that passing the bar has value, but the NFLPA Exam has an extensive CBA and other governing rules and passing it shows you know what your're doing.

Maybe I'd consider practicing law as a future career change if need be, but I think I'm better off being able to focus solely on future clients as an agent rather than juggling both. Having practice in school negotiating with legal cases, I think the plain numbers aspect of statistics and previous NFL contracts are much simpler. Yes being a lawyer can be advantageous for the right person, but there's many fellow classmates I have and some adult lawyers I know that I don't think could be convincing or have the 'it' factor when it comes to negotiating.

 

[Gatorhater]

Yes... that's another thing... He could be eligible for graduation as soon as May 2019. I wouldn't be hurt if he stayed and got his degree.

Your son, by everything I’ve seen, is one of the most level headed focused players we have ever had, and many a Cane was exceptional in those things. You and the wife did great job. I expect he, and the two of you, will make excellent decisions.

I did some rep work for couple Dolphins back in the 70s. Tax issues we super important back then and deferred compensation packages very useful with the high interest and high tax rates of the day. I was expert on those matters otherwise I would not have felt competent in sports specialty. Today I would not touch it. Make sure anyone you use brings relevant expertise to the table. I do suspect that the group that brings the NC back to The U will be well treated in NFL draft. They will be marked as “those Miami boys”.

 

[AllAboutTheU]

@apfenny3 Where did you go to law school that you were able to graduate so quickly? Weren't you just playing college ball still as recent as last year? Is it ABA accredited?

 

[apfenny3]

@apfenny3 Where did you go to law school that you were able to graduate so quickly? Weren't you just playing college ball still as recent as last year? Is it ABA accredited?

Drake university, they’re accredited. They have a masters program for people who want legal knowledge without being a lawyer. Its the same classes as the normal JD but I get to pick my schedule. So I focused my schedule on contracts, negotiations, mediation, business associations, and other classes actually more relevant to what I’ll be doing.

The nflpa now requires you to have a post graduate degree to get registered unless you already have some negotiating experience e.g. a certain South Florida agent who burst onto the scene despite never going to college.

In the old days, Rosenhaus signed his first client when he was 22 and still had a year or two left in school and had a dozen clients by the time he was 24.

I knew I didn’t want to practice Law and wanted to get certified ASAP so I was just able to cut out the Crim Law, Civ Pro, etc classes that won’t help me and just add more time.

 

[Calinative]

Drake university, they’re accredited. They have a masters program for people who want legal knowledge without being a lawyer. Its the same classes as the normal JD but I get to pick my schedule. So I focused my schedule on contracts, negotiations, mediation, business associations, and other classes actually more relevant to what I’ll be doing.

The nflpa now requires you to have a post graduate degree to get registered unless you already have some negotiating experience e.g. a certain South Florida agent who burst onto the scene despite never going to college.

In the old days, Rosenhaus signed his first client when he was 22 and still had a year or two left in school and had a dozen clients by the time he was 24.

I knew I didn’t want to practice Law and wanted to get certified ASAP so I was just able to cut out the Crim Law, Civ Pro, etc classes that won’t help me and just add more time.

smart move.