A Plea for Rationality

[Gardenstatecane]

You want context?

Golden has fielded 3 Top 20 defenses (not even Top 10 or 5) during his entire tenure as a football coach (coordinator or head coach).

But yeah, adding some nice recruits who won't contribute here for another 2-3 years is going to pay dividends next year.

Yes, even your reply here doesn't give context.

Who were the teams, what state were they in before Al took over?

Virginia as DC (where he did pretty well when you factor in that fact it's Virginia)
Temple who almost got eliminated as a football program they were so bad.

So yes, please provide context. He brought a temple team that was what, 0-11 and on the brink of disbanding to the top of the MAC and a respectable program. And the minute he leaves, how is Temple now?

Virginia, here's more context:

Named defensive coordinator by Virginia head coach Al Groh in 2001, Golden became the youngest defensive coordinator in Division I-A.[1] He had spent the previous season at his alma mater, Penn State University, serving as linebackers coach and recruiting coordinator under Joe Paterno.[1] From 2001 to 2004, the Cavaliers' defense improved under his tutelage, ranking 108th in total defense in his first year to ranking 18th in total defense in 2004. In the same time period, Virginia's scoring defense went from 74th in the nation (27.6 ppg) to 17th (17.7 ppg) utilizing Golden's 3–4 defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Golden_(American_football)

 

[Gardenstatecane]

I don't understand why we need NFL draft picks all over our defense to not give up over 450 ypg against FBS opponents.

What about to Golden's eye for talent everybody was creaming over when he was hired? Muhammad Wilkerson! Terrance Knighton!

Straw man...

We don't need " NFL draft picks ALL OVER our defense" but there wasn't 1 outside of Perrymen that was an upper classmen. Not 1. Maybe Gunter.

Name 1 senior from last year on defense that is making an NFL team in a significant role next year? You will be found wanting.

Rice had the 30th ranked defense. How many NFL draft picks they putting out in this draft?

Southern Alabama had the 50th ranked defense. How many NFL draft picks they churning out this year?

Where were their recruiting classes the past 5 years in comparison to ours?

Rice?! What was Rice's schedule?

Do you consider who Rice plays vs who we play?

Is this reality? Stop just looking at NUMBERS and making DIRECT COMPARISONS and drawing fuzzy conclusions! CONTEXT. My god. Learn it.

Rice's Schedule:

T A&M (gave up 52 pts)
Kansas
Houston
Florida Atlantic
Tulsa
UTSA
New Mexico
UTEP
North Texas
Louisiana Tech
UAB
Tulane
Marshall
Mississippi (bowl game gave up 44)

What would our record be and what would our defense be if we played this schedule? CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

I don't understand why we need NFL draft picks all over our defense to not give up over 450 ypg against FBS opponents.

What about to Golden's eye for talent everybody was creaming over when he was hired? Muhammad Wilkerson! Terrance Knighton!

Straw man...

We don't need " NFL draft picks ALL OVER our defense" but there wasn't 1 outside of Perrymen that was an upper classmen. Not 1. Maybe Gunter.

Name 1 senior from last year on defense that is making an NFL team in a significant role next year? You will be found wanting.

Rice had the 30th ranked defense. How many NFL draft picks they putting out in this draft?

Southern Alabama had the 50th ranked defense. How many NFL draft picks they churning out this year?

Where were their recruiting classes the past 5 years in comparison to ours?

Rice?! What was Rice's schedule?

Do you consider who Rice plays vs who we play?

Is this reality? Stop just looking at NUMBERS and making DIRECT COMPARISONS and drawing fuzzy conclusions! CONTEXT. My god. Learn it.

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

What would our record have been if we played Temple's grueling schedule under Golden?

 

[RiDLer80]

I don't understand why we need NFL draft picks all over our defense to not give up over 450 ypg against FBS opponents.

What about to Golden's eye for talent everybody was creaming over when he was hired? Muhammad Wilkerson! Terrance Knighton!

Straw man...

We don't need " NFL draft picks ALL OVER our defense" but there wasn't 1 outside of Perrymen that was an upper classmen. Not 1. Maybe Gunter.

Name 1 senior from last year on defense that is making an NFL team in a significant role next year? You will be found wanting.

Why do they have to be seniors that make a significant role in the NFL? Just making the NFL is an accomplishment in itself. I expect a couple of our players to get a shot in the NFL. They probably won't be long stints but guys like Porter, Robinson, Gilbert and Gaines will probably get a shot in the NFL.

Not to mention our juniors last year who will be seniors this season will probably get looks in the NFL. Perryman, Chick, Pierre and Gunter to name a few. No, that's not a bunch of first rounders like our NFL heyday but it's certainly enough talent to to ranked higher than 89 in total defense.

Now, how many of those offenses that we allowed 400+ yards against have that many players who will even get a shot in the NFL?

 

[Gardenstatecane]

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

No! Because you are comparing TEMPLE TO TEMPLE in that Scenario! Holy ****! All you are saying when you bring up Al's tenure at Temple is where was the defense when he started vs where it was when he left. Why would you factor UM's schedule? Are you thinking before you post?

 

[Gardenstatecane]

I don't understand why we need NFL draft picks all over our defense to not give up over 450 ypg against FBS opponents.

What about to Golden's eye for talent everybody was creaming over when he was hired? Muhammad Wilkerson! Terrance Knighton!

Straw man...

We don't need " NFL draft picks ALL OVER our defense" but there wasn't 1 outside of Perrymen that was an upper classmen. Not 1. Maybe Gunter.

Name 1 senior from last year on defense that is making an NFL team in a significant role next year? You will be found wanting.

Why do they have to be seniors that make a significant role in the NFL? Just making the NFL is an accomplishment in itself. I expect a couple of our players to get a shot in the NFL. They probably won't be long stints but guys like Porter, Robinson, Gilbert and Gaines will probably get a shot in the NFL.

Not to mention our juniors last year who will be seniors this season will probably get looks in the NFL. Perryman, Chick, Pierre and Gunter to name a few. No, that's not a bunch of first rounders like our NFL heyday but it's certainly enough talent to to ranked higher than 89 in total defense.

Now, how many of those offenses that we allowed 400+ yards against have that many players who will even get a shot in the NFL?

You are not following the argument. You keep creating red herrings.

I am saying that this defense is a complicated defense. It requires a few years to learn it. Our guys who had that opportunity (the ones I named) are sub par athletes. They were borderline kids. Some of them probably shouldn't have played at Miami.

The ones you named, notice were all Juniors except Gaines. Perryman, Chick, Pierre, Gunter all juniors. Some of them never burned a shirt.

Porter, Robinson, Gilbert and Gaines... If you think they will ever sniff an NFL roster and make a significant impact I got a bridge to sell you in North Jersey.

Porter is an injury risk and is not that good. Robinson took 4 years off and finally decided to play last year and he's a diva (see his fathers call to radio stations), Gilbert ran a 4.9 and has a foot that is about to fall off. Gaines is a decent athlete. Nothing special. 4.77 (probably more of a 4.8 guy) aint cutting it in the NFL.

I love these guys for being Canes, but can we be honest here. Who out of those names scares any opposing offenses? Were any of them ever even named 3rd Team All ACC?

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

No! Because you are comparing TEMPLE TO TEMPLE in that Scenario! Holy ****! All you are saying when you bring up Al's tenure at Temple is where was the defense when he started vs where it was when he left. Why would you factor UM's schedule? Are you thinking before you post?

No, you are just a little slow. You brought up Al Golden at Temple to prove your point that Al Golden can coach a defense. No? Yet you don't consider that he played a joke of a schedule, with some of the worst offenses in college football to get that defensive ranking in year 4.

On the other hand, you want to downplay other teams who also have respectable defensive rankings merely because they played an easy schedule.

I apologize if you cannot see your scattered thought process.

 

[niner]

I don't understand why we need NFL draft picks all over our defense to not give up over 450 ypg against FBS opponents.

What about to Golden's eye for talent everybody was creaming over when he was hired? Muhammad Wilkerson! Terrance Knighton!

Straw man...

We don't need " NFL draft picks ALL OVER our defense" but there wasn't 1 outside of Perrymen that was an upper classmen. Not 1. Maybe Gunter.

Name 1 senior from last year on defense that is making an NFL team in a significant role next year? You will be found wanting.

Rice had the 30th ranked defense. How many NFL draft picks they putting out in this draft?

Southern Alabama had the 50th ranked defense. How many NFL draft picks they churning out this year?

Where were their recruiting classes the past 5 years in comparison to ours?

Rice?! What was Rice's schedule?

Do you consider who Rice plays vs who we play?

Is this reality? Stop just looking at NUMBERS and making DIRECT COMPARISONS and drawing fuzzy conclusions! CONTEXT. My god. Learn it.

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

What would our record have been if we played Temple's grueling schedule under Golden?

Let me get this straight, in one post, you mention Rice and Southern Alabama as having top 50 defenses.

Then on another post, you question who Temple played?

 

[Gardenstatecane]

All ACC 2013:

FIRST TEAM
OFFENSE
QB_Jameis Winston, Florida State (191)
RB_Andre Williams, Boston College (195)(asterisk)(asterisk)
RB_Devonta Freeman, Florida State (126)
WR_Sammy Watkins, Clemson (191)
WR_Jamison Crowder, Duke (172)
WR_Rashad Greene, Florida State (126)
TE_Eric Ebron, North Carolina (178)
OT_Cameron Erving, Florida State (148)
OT_James Hurst, North Carolina (118)
OG_Tre’ Jackson, Florida State (160)
OG_Shaq Mason, Georgia Tech (96)
C_Bryan Stork, Florida State (181)
DEFENSE
DE_Vic Beasley, Clemson (161)
DE_Kareem Martin, North Carolina (159)
DT_Aaron Donald, Pittsburgh (171)
DT_Nikita Whitlock, Wake Forest (156)
LB_Kelby Brown, Duke (146)
LB_Denzel Perryman, Miami (124)
LB_Kevin Pierre-Louis, Boston College (123)
CB_Lamarcus Joyner, Florida State (172)
CB_Ross ****rell, Duke (145)
S_Anthony Harris, Virginia (142)
S_Jeremy Cash, Duke (129)
SPECIAL TEAMS
PK_Nate Freese, Boston College (124)
P_Pat O’Donnell, Miami (135)
SP_Ryan Switzer, North Carolina (155)
___
SECOND TEAM
OFFENSE
QB_Tajh Boyd, Clemson (132)
RB_Kevin Parks, Virginia (117)
RB_Duke Johnson, Miami (104)
WR_Michael Campanaro, Wake Forest (102)
WR_Allen Hurns, Miami (102)
WR_Tyler Boyd, Pittsburgh (100)
TE_Nick O’Leary, Florida State (126)
OT_Brandon Thomas, Clemson (104)
OT_Matt Patchan, Boston College (92)
OG_Laken Tomlinson, Duke (90)
OG_Brandon Linder, Miami (80)
C_Macky MacPherson, Syracuse (61)
DEFENSE
DE_Jeremiah Attaochu, Georgia Tech (121)
DE_Kenny Anunike, Duke (98)
DT_Timmy Jernigan, Florida State (124)
DT_Derrick Hopkins, Virginia Tech (73)
LB_Telvin Smith, Florida State (105)
LB_Jack Tyler, Virginia Tech (93)
LB_Christian Jones, Florida State (83)
CB_Kendall Fuller, Virginia Tech (91)
CB_Bashaud Breeland, Clemson (69)
S_Terrence Brooks, Florida State (97)
S_Tre Boston, North Carolina (86)
SPECIAL TEAMS
PK_Roberto Aguayo, Florida State (123)
P_A.J. Hughes, Virginia Tech (79)
SP_Jamison Crowder, Duke (80)
___
THIRD TEAM
OFFENSE
QB_Stephen Morris, Miami (24)
RB_Roderick McDowell, Clemson (85)
RB_Jerome Smith, Syracuse (53)
WR_Devin Street, Pittsburgh (80)
WR_Alex Amidon, Boston College (70)
WR_Kelvin Benjamin, Florida State (68)
TE_Braxton Deaver, Duke (51)
OT_Perry Simmons, Duke (80)
OT_Morgan Moses, Virginia (76)
OG_Tyler Shatley, Clemson (65)
OG_Josue Matias, Florida State (57)
C_Andy Gallik, Boston College (52)
DEFENSE
DE_Kasim Edebali, Boston College (65)
DE_Mario Edwards Jr., Florida State (56)
DT_Jay Bromley, Syracuse (68)
DT_Luther Maddy, Virginia Tech (56)
LB_Steele Divitto, Boston College (78)
LB_Stephone Anthony, Clemson (73)
LB_Spencer Shuey, Clemson (57)
CB_Kyle Fuller, Virginia Tech (58)
CB_Brandon Facyson, Virginia Tech (53)
S_Durell Eskridge, Syracuse (53)
S_Nate Andrews, Florida State (44)
SPECIAL TEAMS
PK_Chandler Catanzaro, Clemson (69)
P_Will Monday, Duke (73)
SP_DeVon Edwards, Duke (57)

LMAO! 1 Defensive Player

 

[Gardenstatecane]

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

No! Because you are comparing TEMPLE TO TEMPLE in that Scenario! Holy ****! All you are saying when you bring up Al's tenure at Temple is where was the defense when he started vs where it was when he left. Why would you factor UM's schedule? Are you thinking before you post?

No, you are just a little slow. You brought up Al Golden at Temple to prove your point that Al Golden can coach a defense. No? Yet you don't consider that he played a joke of a schedule, with some of the worst offenses in college football to get that defensive ranking in year 4.

On the other hand, you want to downplay other teams who also have respectable defensive rankings merely because they played an easy schedule.

I apologize if you cannot see your scattered thought process.

haha... my scattered thought process?! Twighlight Zone... aka CIS

 

[RiDLer80]

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

No! Because you are comparing TEMPLE TO TEMPLE in that Scenario! Holy ****! All you are saying when you bring up Al's tenure at Temple is where was the defense when he started vs where it was when he left. Why would you factor UM's schedule? Are you thinking before you post?

No, you are just a little slow. You brought up Al Golden at Temple to prove your point that Al Golden can coach a defense. No? Yet you don't consider that he played a joke of a schedule, with some of the worst offenses in college football to get that defensive ranking in year 4.

On the other hand, you want to downplay other teams who also have respectable defensive rankings merely because they played an easy schedule.

I apologize if you cannot see your scattered thought process.

haha... my scattered thought process?! Twighlight Zone... aka CIS

How are you not understanding?

On one hand, you dismiss Rice's defensive accomplishments because they played an easy schedule, but on the other hand you tout Golden's top defense at Temple without acknowledging they most likely played an equally weak schedule, if not worse.

 

[Dghustla]

we lost to Duke man..we failed to win the coastal when it was gift wraped to us. Our defense has been one of the worst in history. I like Al golden too but....

 

[Sabetta]

On that chart id argue every one of those teams had better talent and depth than us..

 

[NVA CANE]

We shall see come this fall.

Top 25 defense
10 wins
Win the Coastal

I believe everyone agrees those are the bare minimum?

 

[canecountry3]

We shall see come this fall.

Top 25 defense
10 wins
Win the Coastal

I believe everyone agrees those are the bare minimum?

All three of those may not happen.

 

[RiDLer80]

We shall see come this fall.

Top 25 defense
10 wins
Win the Coastal

I believe everyone agrees those are the bare minimum?

All three of those may not happen.

Is asking for any of those things in Golden's fourth year at Miami irrational?

 

[NVA CANE]

We shall see come this fall.

Top 25 defense
10 wins
Win the Coastal

I believe everyone agrees those are the bare minimum?

All three of those may not happen.

I'll overlook the top 25 defense if we get to 10 wins and win the coastal. But if those two happen then I assume the defense improved significantly enough to be in the top 30 or so range so it will be close enough.

 

[Gardenstatecane]

Do you consider who Temple played vs. who we play when going on your rant about Temple's defense under Golden?

Is this reality?

No! Because you are comparing TEMPLE TO TEMPLE in that Scenario! Holy ****! All you are saying when you bring up Al's tenure at Temple is where was the defense when he started vs where it was when he left. Why would you factor UM's schedule? Are you thinking before you post?

No, you are just a little slow. You brought up Al Golden at Temple to prove your point that Al Golden can coach a defense. No? Yet you don't consider that he played a joke of a schedule, with some of the worst offenses in college football to get that defensive ranking in year 4.

On the other hand, you want to downplay other teams who also have respectable defensive rankings merely because they played an easy schedule.

I apologize if you cannot see your scattered thought process.

haha... my scattered thought process?! Twighlight Zone... aka CIS

How are you not understanding?

On one hand, you dismiss Rice's defensive accomplishments because they played an easy schedule, but on the other hand you tout Golden's top defense at Temple without acknowledging they most likely played an equally weak schedule, if not worse.

It's you who do not understand the fallacy you've committed.

You brought up Rice's 2013 defensive numbers to compare directly to Miami's 2013 defensive numbers. That means that I can say to you that the strength of schedule is much much harder for Miami playing in the ACC vs. Rice's division.

When I bring up Temple to show Al's progression, I am only pointing to year 1 at temple to year 5 at temple. That's it. I am not saying that it should translate to Miami. I am simply showing that he IMPROVED A DEFENSE WHILE THERE. HE WAS THE ONLY THING THAT CHANGED AT TEMPLE.

Same as Virginia. He was the only thing that changed regarding that defense.

Do you finally get it. You are committing the comparative fallacy, I am not. My comparisons are isolated to his time frame at the institutions he coached at and showing improvement. Your comparison compares 2 different teams with 2 different schedules playing 2 different levels of competition.

And the funny part about Rice is that every time they played a BCS level team, they got routed. Please just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[FG305]

All ACC 2013:

FIRST TEAM
OFFENSE
QB_Jameis Winston, Florida State (191)
RB_Andre Williams, Boston College (195)(asterisk)(asterisk)
RB_Devonta Freeman, Florida State (126)
WR_Sammy Watkins, Clemson (191)
WR_Jamison Crowder, Duke (172)
WR_Rashad Greene, Florida State (126)
TE_Eric Ebron, North Carolina (178)
OT_Cameron Erving, Florida State (148)
OT_James Hurst, North Carolina (118)
OG_Tre’ Jackson, Florida State (160)
OG_Shaq Mason, Georgia Tech (96)
C_Bryan Stork, Florida State (181)
DEFENSE
DE_Vic Beasley, Clemson (161)
DE_Kareem Martin, North Carolina (159)
DT_Aaron Donald, Pittsburgh (171)
DT_Nikita Whitlock, Wake Forest (156)
LB_Kelby Brown, Duke (146)
LB_Denzel Perryman, Miami (124)
LB_Kevin Pierre-Louis, Boston College (123)
CB_Lamarcus Joyner, Florida State (172)
CB_Ross ****rell, Duke (145)
S_Anthony Harris, Virginia (142)
S_Jeremy Cash, Duke (129)
SPECIAL TEAMS
PK_Nate Freese, Boston College (124)
P_Pat O’Donnell, Miami (135)
SP_Ryan Switzer, North Carolina (155)
___
SECOND TEAM
OFFENSE
QB_Tajh Boyd, Clemson (132)
RB_Kevin Parks, Virginia (117)
RB_Duke Johnson, Miami (104)
WR_Michael Campanaro, Wake Forest (102)
WR_Allen Hurns, Miami (102)
WR_Tyler Boyd, Pittsburgh (100)
TE_Nick O’Leary, Florida State (126)
OT_Brandon Thomas, Clemson (104)
OT_Matt Patchan, Boston College (92)
OG_Laken Tomlinson, Duke (90)
OG_Brandon Linder, Miami (80)
C_Macky MacPherson, Syracuse (61)
DEFENSE
DE_Jeremiah Attaochu, Georgia Tech (121)
DE_Kenny Anunike, Duke (98)
DT_Timmy Jernigan, Florida State (124)
DT_Derrick Hopkins, Virginia Tech (73)
LB_Telvin Smith, Florida State (105)
LB_Jack Tyler, Virginia Tech (93)
LB_Christian Jones, Florida State (83)
CB_Kendall Fuller, Virginia Tech (91)
CB_Bashaud Breeland, Clemson (69)
S_Terrence Brooks, Florida State (97)
S_Tre Boston, North Carolina (86)
SPECIAL TEAMS
PK_Roberto Aguayo, Florida State (123)
P_A.J. Hughes, Virginia Tech (79)
SP_Jamison Crowder, Duke (80)
___
THIRD TEAM
OFFENSE
QB_Stephen Morris, Miami (24)
RB_Roderick McDowell, Clemson (85)
RB_Jerome Smith, Syracuse (53)
WR_Devin Street, Pittsburgh (80)
WR_Alex Amidon, Boston College (70)
WR_Kelvin Benjamin, Florida State (68)
TE_Braxton Deaver, Duke (51)
OT_Perry Simmons, Duke (80)
OT_Morgan Moses, Virginia (76)
OG_Tyler Shatley, Clemson (65)
OG_Josue Matias, Florida State (57)
C_Andy Gallik, Boston College (52)
DEFENSE
DE_Kasim Edebali, Boston College (65)
DE_Mario Edwards Jr., Florida State (56)
DT_Jay Bromley, Syracuse (68)
DT_Luther Maddy, Virginia Tech (56)
LB_Steele Divitto, Boston College (78)
LB_Stephone Anthony, Clemson (73)
LB_Spencer Shuey, Clemson (57)
CB_Kyle Fuller, Virginia Tech (58)
CB_Brandon Facyson, Virginia Tech (53)
S_Durell Eskridge, Syracuse (53)
S_Nate Andrews, Florida State (44)
SPECIAL TEAMS
PK_Chandler Catanzaro, Clemson (69)
P_Will Monday, Duke (73)
SP_DeVon Edwards, Duke (57)

LMAO! 1 Defensive Player

****, Al's being thoroughly out coached...We used to be NFLU but now we're ExcuseU...smh.

 

[JHallCanes]

I don't understand why we need NFL draft picks all over our defense to not give up over 450 ypg against FBS opponents.

What about to Golden's eye for talent everybody was creaming over when he was hired? Muhammad Wilkerson! Terrance Knighton!

Straw man...

We don't need " NFL draft picks ALL OVER our defense" but there wasn't 1 outside of Perrymen that was an upper classmen. Not 1. Maybe Gunter.

Name 1 senior from last year on defense that is making an NFL team in a significant role next year? You will be found wanting.

How many Duke players were invited to the combine?

How many draft picks will they have?