Want To Win A Title?

[Handsome Squidbum]

The narrative on here has been, just get top 5 classes and even Mario won’t be able to mess that up.

Brother, that's the narrative because it's literally the only possible way Cristobal is going to be successful. Have to give the fanbase some flicker of hope.

Cristobal is not going to learn how to be a better coach or try to hire innovative coordinators after 10 plus years.

 

[Handsome Squidbum]

@Memnon literally told us verbatim what the Cristobal era was going to be

Psssst

 

[CaneTheGaytors]

Brother, that's the narrative because it's literally the only possible way Cristobal is going to be successful. Have to give the fanbase some flicker of hope.

Cristobal is not going to learn how to be a better coach or try to hire innovative coordinators after 10 plus years.

I agree. It’s like a defense mechanism that the MarioBro’s have.

But now suddenly some of these posters are saying that Michigan has top talent, which is laughable. Miami was ranked 12th on the composite in overall blue chip ratio the last 5 years, meaning that Miami has more blue chip players than Michigan, which blows up that narrative out of the water.

So now the goal posts have been moved. All of a sudden we don’t need top 5 classes for Mario to win anymore, just top 15. But, wait, that would mean that Mario has gone 12-13 his first 2 seasons here while having more blue chippers than the National Champion and way more blue chippers than the runner-up.

But apparently, the posters defending Mario don’t want to see the flaws in their argument.

 

[Manfred_Cane]

Michigan is the ultimate retort to the Mario Bros. Jim Harbaugh recruits at a Manny level.

No he doesn't lol you can try to base this off rankings but Harbaugh recruits kids with way better character and skill traits than Manny ever did

 

[Handsome Squidbum]

No he doesn't lol you can try to base this off rankings but Harbaugh recruits kids with way better character and skill traits than Manny ever did

Most recruits out of HS are the same as high school kids anywhere. They have good attitudes when they are winning and bad attitudes when they are losing.

Harbaugh has had winning seasons every year he has been at Michigan except the covid year. And in his first 2 years he won 10 games each season mostly with Brady Hokes players. Richt won 9 games his first season, then 10 mostly with Al Goldens players, then with a team mostly of his own recruits, went 7-6. So did Al Golden recruit higher character players than Mark Richt?

 

[Angry Ibis]

I love how people reach for outliers and think it's some kind of valid argument. Yes, TCU had a magical season, but look what happened when all their seniors left, they reverted right back to mediocrity, because they can't successfully reload high end talent. Michigan doesn't recruit as well as Alabama or Georgia and due to how top heavy the B1G is, they don't have to, they tower over the rest of that conference talent wise(Outside of Ohio State), because most of their peeer schools recruit like trash. It also helps to have a guy that was inches away from a Super Bowl leading your program. That said, I wouldn't be shocked if Michigan took a step back this fall, because they are going to lose a fair amount of experienced talent. What happens when Michigan loses Harbaugh and a less talented coach takes over, with the talent on the roster? Exactly.

The whole Mario experiment is about SUSTAINABILITY. If we want an elite program that lasts, and isn't a "One Year Wonder", Miami will have to stack classes, develop that high end incoming talent along with hitting the portal for needs as they arise. That's pretty much the only proven way to do this thing. Look at Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, Texas, etc. Guess what those programs do year in and year out? They recruit, and outside of Texas, they have been in the hunt for years on end. Yes, you do need quality coaching, and that's something that can be corrected by building a strong staff. That's on your program CEO, and to be honest, Mario has had a mixed bag in regards to hiring. He's had some terrible ones(Gattis), some meh(Dawson) and a some strong ones(Guidry). The question is whether he can find the combo that works, and whether he can build a system that limits his shortcomings(Game management). If Miami is beating teams by a score regularly and not in dogfights against weaker teams, it won't matter if Mario botches a TO or gets flustered and doesn't call victory formation. Keep in mind, Jim Harbaugh, a **** good coach has just as many titles as Gene Chizik and Ed Orgeron. It's a lot easier to be the last team standing if you stack high end talent, compared to hoping you hit on an elite coach.

Uses top heavy conference excuse to defend the guy who's achievements were standing on top of a top heavy conference....

 

[Manfred_Cane]

Most recruits out of HS are the same as high school kids anywhere. They have good attitudes when they are winning and bad attitudes when they are losing.

Harbaugh has had winning seasons every year he has been at Michigan except the covid year. And in his first 2 years he won 10 games each season mostly with Brady Hokes players. Richt won 9 games his first season, then 10 mostly with Al Goldens players, then with a team mostly of his own recruits, went 7-6. So did Al Golden recruit higher character players than Mark Richt?

Most recruits out of HS are the same as high school kids anywhere. They have good attitudes when they are winning and bad attitudes when they are losing.

Harbaugh has had winning seasons every year he has been at Michigan except the covid year. And in his first 2 years he won 10 games each season mostly with Brady Hokes players. Richt won 9 games his first season, then 10 mostly with Al Goldens players, then with a team mostly of his own recruits, went 7-6. So did Al Golden recruit higher character players than Mark Richt?

What's funny about this, is that Richt kicked off Jermaine Grace and Al-Quadin Muhammad before spring balll lmaooo

 

[Canegrad89]

i wonder if he can make that change ??? also staff needs to be a mix of teachers and recruiters.... we seem to have all talent acquisition type assistants

The bold part is absolutely not true. On D, I’d say:

Guidry - very strong at Xs & Os. Better teacher than recruiter…and I think he’s a very good teacher.

JT - very strong as both a teacher & a recruiter.

Coach Joe - was previously taking heat for not being a great recruiter. I don’t know all the details on who led the recruitment for J. Scott & A. Jones (and the NC State kid from the Portal who was previously a Top-150 type) but have to give Coach Joe his props on the recruiting front for this most recent class. Our Rush D was also stout for most of the yr (with a few wobbles against UNC in the 2nd half, UL and Rutgers). Were missing talent like LT at DT against Rutgers. It showed. UNC was mostly one bad half. He seems solid as a developer.

Coach D Nich - potential star on the Defensive staff. LBs were greatly improved yr-o-yr under his tutelage. Massive difference on Run D from one yr to the next. Recruiting some studs at LB such as Aldarius Hayes & Melendez (really excited about both of them).

Addae: very good teacher/technician. He’s a better Developer than he is recruiter.

I think we have very good teachers on the Defensive side of the ball.

OL: Mario & Mirabal are among the best in the nation at coaching up the OL. Have crushed it in recruiting also.

RB: Harris has recruited well & his RBs have been solid. Grade TBD as a Developer only because he hasn’t been here that long but most people around the program seem high on him.

TE: recruiting good. Development as blockers good. Want to see our stable of TEs play a much more active role in the passing game next yr & thrive. Honestly not happy here that our TEs didn’t play a much bigger role. They must going forward. They made the Offense look light yrs better & more balanced against BC.

WR: Beard is a very strong technician and a great teacher. Crushing it in recruiting & in development.

OC/QB: idk re recruiting. Seems solid as a QB coach.

How can one possibly come to the conclusion that we have “all talent acquisition type assistants”? There are some great teachers on the staff (including two of the very best for OL). We have great teachers at every level of the Defense and the results proved that as we made a major jump in the defensive rankings. We have at least three great teachers on offense.

 

[WndyCityCane]

Title? I would just like to finish the ACC with a winning record.

Mario is a .500 coach.

 

[Glow]

But now suddenly some of these posters are saying that Michigan has top talent, which is laughable.

Michigan has top talent, they didn't recruit at Bama/UGA level to get there though.

 

[mcnaire2004]

No he doesn't lol you can try to base this off rankings but Harbaugh recruits kids with way better character and skill traits than Manny ever did

I used rankings because the Art of War says I should always leave my enemy a way out. Giving people the ability to say "Mario is a great recruiter." That argument only works if you judge on recruiting rankings. I guess I was trying to throw the Mario Bros a bone.

That said, you are absolutely right about not going off of rankings entirely. Character matters. Manny recruited Tate Martel to a Dan Enos offense which at the time was seen as knocking it out of the park. We know how that ended.

 

[Post Tropical Cyclone]

Michigan is the ultimate retort to the Mario Bros. Jim Harbaugh recruits at a Manny level.

This thread is full of silly, knee-jerk takes, but this is the worst one. It belongs on the UF 247 board with their other smooth-brained math.

Manny was notorious for his desperate, showy recruiting classes that didn't address core team needs. A much better comp here is Norvell, who seems to recruit on skill position talent ranking irrespective of roster makeup. Jim Harbaugh is a very good recruiter who is elite at identifying talent and player development.

The only similarity between Diaz and Harbaugh from a recruiting standpoint is the numerical average of scouting scores given to ALL signees out of high schools. If you're still confused, go ahead and watch last night's game and then spend five minutes looking up the backgrounds of the key contributors.

 

[mcnaire2004]

This thread is full of silly, knee-jerk takes, but this is the worst one. It belongs on the UF 247 board with their other smooth-brained math.

Manny was notorious for his desperate, showy recruiting classes that didn't address core team needs. A much better comp here is Norvell, who seems to recruit on skill position talent ranking irrespective of roster makeup. Jim Harbaugh is a very good recruiter who is elite at identifying talent and player development.

The only similarity between Diaz and Harbaugh from a recruiting standpoint is the numerical average of scouting scores given to ALL signees out of high schools. If you're still confused, go ahead and watch last night's game and then spend five minutes looking up the backgrounds of the key contributors.

The point isn't comparing Manny and Jim. The point is that coaching matters. It's a fight against the narrative that goes like "Mario may not be a good GameDay coach but he's a great recruiter. That's all you need to win a championship."

 

[Negro-Wan Kanobi]

The bold part is absolutely not true. On D, I’d say:

Guidry - very strong at Xs & Os. Better teacher than recruiter…and I think he’s a very good teacher.

JT - very strong as both a teacher & a recruiter.

Coach Joe - was previously taking heat for not being a great recruiter. I don’t know all the details on who led the recruitment for J. Scott & A. Jones (and the NC State kid from the Portal who was previously a Top-150 type) but have to give Coach Joe his props on the recruiting front for this most recent class. Our Rush D was also stout for most of the yr (with a few wobbles against UNC in the 2nd half, UL and Rutgers). Were missing talent like LT at DT against Rutgers. It showed. UNC was mostly one bad half. He seems solid as a developer.

Coach D Nich - potential star on the Defensive staff. LBs were greatly improved yr-o-yr under his tutelage. Massive difference on Run D from one yr to the next. Recruiting some studs at LB such as Aldarius Hayes & Melendez (really excited about both of them).

Addae: very good teacher/technician. He’s a better Developer than he is recruiter.

I think we have very good teachers on the Defensive side of the ball.

OL: Mario & Mirabal are among the best in the nation at coaching up the OL. Have crushed it in recruiting also.

RB: Harris has recruited well & his RBs have been solid. Grade TBD as a Developer only because he hasn’t been here that long but most people around the program seem high on him.

TE: recruiting good. Development as blockers good. Want to see our stable of TEs play a much more active role in the passing game next yr & thrive. Honestly not happy here that our TEs didn’t play a much bigger role. They must going forward. They made the Offense look light yrs better & more balanced against BC.

WR: Beard is a very strong technician and a great teacher. Crushing it in recruiting & in development.

OC/QB: idk re recruiting. Seems solid as a QB coach.

How can one possibly come to the conclusion that we have “all talent acquisition type assistants”? There are some great teachers on the staff (including two of the very best for OL). We have great teachers at every level of the Defense and the results proved that as we made a major jump in the defensive rankings. We have at least three great teachers on offense.

 

[Post Tropical Cyclone]

The point isn't comparing Manny and Jim. The point is that coaching matters. It's a fight against the narrative that goes like "Mario may not be a good GameDay coach but he's a great recruiter. That's all you need to win a championship."

I'm not trying to get into a ****ing contest, but you wrote that "Harbaugh recruits at a Manny level". I completely agree that you can't be a **** coach and win with talent alone. But it's also disingenuous to suggest that Michigan was playing with Manny Diaz-led Miami talent and dominating teams through gameday coaching.

The boring reality is that Michigan has great talent, championship-caliber depth, and solid gameday coaching. DeBoer looks like the best in the biz and Penix was the most impressive passer I've seen this season. It didn't matter when the Joe Moore Award-winning OL was getting Oklahoma-drilled into the pocket after half a second.

 

[CaneTheGaytors]

Michigan has top talent, they didn't recruit at Bama/UGA level to get there though.

They only have two composite 5-Stars, and only 13 Top 150 composite players. That is NOT “top talent.” Top talent is what Jawja, Baga, Taint, aTm, Texas and Oregon recruit on a yearly basis.

Michigan is not even top 10 in talent the last 5 years. Coaching, scheme, play calling and development is where they shine. Credit given where credit is due.

 

[Glow]

They only have two composite 5-Stars, and only 13 Top 150 composite players. That is NOT “top talent.” Top talent is what Jawja, Baga, Taint, aTm, Texas and Oregon recruit on a yearly basis.

Michigan is not even top 10 in talent the last 5 years. Coaching, scheme, play calling and development is where they shine. Credit given where credit is due.

I can't tell if people are trolling, why is everyone talking about recruiting ratings as if they are the same thing as ratings of developed players on a roster that have have played games and been evaluated based on their p5 tape? It's the same logic as finding some 5* QB on Bama's roster and insisting he is better than Penix.

And Michigan doesn't even have a bunch of low-rated players starting for them, they just signed fewer bluechip players overall but hit and developed at a very high rate on the guys they signed. Bluechip recruits are like tickets with a percent chance to hit, you can roll high and hit more than someone with twice as many tickets, that doesn't mean the long run aggregate odds won't skew to the bigger ticket pot.

 

[CaneTheGaytors]

I can't tell if people are trolling, why is everyone talking about recruiting ratings as if they are the same thing as ratings of developed players on a roster that have have played games and been evaluated based on their p5 tape? It's the same logic as finding some 5* QB on Bama's roster and insisting he is better than Penix.

And Michigan doesn't even have a bunch of low-rated players starting for them, they just signed fewer bluechip players overall but hit and developed at a very high rate on the guys they signed. Bluechip recruits are like tickets with a percent chance to hit, you can roll high and hit more than someone with twice as many tickets, that doesn't mean the long run aggregate odds won't skew to the bigger ticket pot.

I completely disagree. Do you know what the chances are that a team hits on all of their recruits at this rate when not having Top 10 classes. It’s almost impossible.

The more logical and rational explanation is that their coach recruits players of a certain type, size, demeanor, and then he and his staff get the most out of them through great coaching, scheme fit, and play calling.

I’ve already seen several posts on social media lauding their defensive scheme/play calling, and saying that it’s NFL level with the concepts that they’re running.

Whether you believe it or not, our Canes have recruited just as well, but have not put our players in the best position to win repeatedly. This problem has been plaguing our team for almost 2 decades.

This game isn’t complicated. Recruit talented players and scheme to their greatest strengths, while not shooting yourself on the foot with horrible game day coaching and poor decision making and play calling. All of our coaches during the last 2 decades have tried to fit squares into circles and have failed miserably while trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Coach Macho]

Guess we'll just forget that the best recruiting teams have won the last, like, 15 national championships.

 

[mcnaire2004]

If only EA sports can put out a **** game again so we can argue another way.