UM's Plan To Reopen

[Pentagon Cane]

Excellent post. Hope the simps take time to read it...

BTW, the Chinese Communist Party doing their thing. This just published on FoxNews.


Chinese authorities on Sunday arrested a constitutional lawyer for posting an open letter on social media that criticized the government’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic and its suppression of free speech, according to reports.

In his letter posted on WeChat, Zhang Xuezhong, 43, said China’s absence of nonstate media and the prevention of medical experts from providing advice to the public showed that “the government’s long-term tight control society and people has almost completely destroyed the organization and self-help capabilities of Chinese society.”

Chinese President Xi Jinping delivers an important speech at a symposium on securing a decisive victory in poverty alleviation in Beijing. (Ju Peng via Getty Images)
He denounced China’s government as backward and said “the outbreak and spread of the COVID-19 epidemic is a good illustration of the problem.”

“The best way to fight for freedom of expression is for everyone to speak as if we already have freedom of speech,” Zhang wrote on the WeChat post alongside the letter.

The letter, addressed to the National People’s Congress (NPC), was circulated online, according to the South China Morning Post.

The next day, three police cars arrive at this house in Shanghai and arrested him, Wen Kejian, an independent political analyst, told the paper.

Zhang’s arrest has highlighted China’s zero-tolerance approach to dissidents. Since the outbreak of COVID-19 late last year, hundreds of people, including doctors, journalists and lawyers, have been arrested in China for merely speaking out about the virus, according to reports from human rights activists.

A security guard carries supplies past a reopened restaurant in Beijing Tuesday, May 12, 2020. (AP)
Statistics cited by China Digital Times show that between Jan. 1 and April 4, nearly 500 hundred individuals were charged with crimes for speaking out.

In some cases, the “speaking out” appeared completely innocuous. Last month, a lawyer in China’s Henan province was punished for reposting an article about long lines at a funeral home in Wuhan, where the virus originated.

CHINA PUT PRESSURE ON WHO TO SCALE BACK CORONAVIRUS WARNING TO STOCKPILE, CIA BELIEVES: REPORT

Many doctors, too, have been silenced for trying to raise an alarm on the threat posed by the coronavirus. Most egregiously, perhaps, was the case of Dr. Li Wenliang, a 34-year-old ophthalmologist at Wuhan Central Hospital in China’s Hubei Province who was reprimanded by authorities for trying to warn others about the disease in late December.

Li was “summoned” by police and forced to sign a letter stating that he made false comments about the virus. His ironic death from the virus at a hospital in Wuhan – where he treated patients and likely contracted the virus – renewed longstanding anger about the communist party’s alleged lies and suppression of information in the country.

The 2020 World Press Freedom Index, released last month by Reporters Without Borders (RSF), ranked China fourth from last place (in front of Eritrea, Turkmenistan and North Korea) in terms of press freedom.

RSF estimates that China has approximately 100 Chinese journalists in jail – the highest number in the world.

 

[1LuvCane]

BTW, the Chinese Communist Party doing their thing. This just published on FoxNews.


Chinese authorities on Sunday arrested a constitutional lawyer for posting an open letter on social media that criticized the government’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic and its suppression of free speech, according to reports.

In his letter posted on WeChat, Zhang Xuezhong, 43, said China’s absence of nonstate media and the prevention of medical experts from providing advice to the public showed that “the government’s long-term tight control society and people has almost completely destroyed the organization and self-help capabilities of Chinese society.”

Chinese President Xi Jinping delivers an important speech at a symposium on securing a decisive victory in poverty alleviation in Beijing. (Ju Peng via Getty Images)
He denounced China’s government as backward and said “the outbreak and spread of the COVID-19 epidemic is a good illustration of the problem.”

“The best way to fight for freedom of expression is for everyone to speak as if we already have freedom of speech,” Zhang wrote on the WeChat post alongside the letter.

The letter, addressed to the National People’s Congress (NPC), was circulated online, according to the South China Morning Post.

The next day, three police cars arrive at this house in Shanghai and arrested him, Wen Kejian, an independent political analyst, told the paper.

Zhang’s arrest has highlighted China’s zero-tolerance approach to dissidents. Since the outbreak of COVID-19 late last year, hundreds of people, including doctors, journalists and lawyers, have been arrested in China for merely speaking out about the virus, according to reports from human rights activists.

A security guard carries supplies past a reopened restaurant in Beijing Tuesday, May 12, 2020. (AP)
Statistics cited by China Digital Times show that between Jan. 1 and April 4, nearly 500 hundred individuals were charged with crimes for speaking out.

In some cases, the “speaking out” appeared completely innocuous. Last month, a lawyer in China’s Henan province was punished for reposting an article about long lines at a funeral home in Wuhan, where the virus originated.

CHINA PUT PRESSURE ON WHO TO SCALE BACK CORONAVIRUS WARNING TO STOCKPILE, CIA BELIEVES: REPORT

Many doctors, too, have been silenced for trying to raise an alarm on the threat posed by the coronavirus. Most egregiously, perhaps, was the case of Dr. Li Wenliang, a 34-year-old ophthalmologist at Wuhan Central Hospital in China’s Hubei Province who was reprimanded by authorities for trying to warn others about the disease in late December.

Li was “summoned” by police and forced to sign a letter stating that he made false comments about the virus. His ironic death from the virus at a hospital in Wuhan – where he treated patients and likely contracted the virus – renewed longstanding anger about the communist party’s alleged lies and suppression of information in the country.

The 2020 World Press Freedom Index, released last month by Reporters Without Borders (RSF), ranked China fourth from last place (in front of Eritrea, Turkmenistan and North Korea) in terms of press freedom.

RSF estimates that China has approximately 100 Chinese journalists in jail – the highest number in the world.

Anything the communist do doesn't surprise me....
My family educated me well on those mofos.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I must have mistaken your meaning when you said this:


Testing does take man-hours and does have a cost associated with it, I don't know why you'd think otherwise. It's not like hospitals or labs have dozens of extra people and equipment sitting around waiting for something to do.

I've never said to open it up all right away. A phased approach is prudent, but expecting FL to follow the same schedule as NY ignores the facts surrounding the two. There is no reason for FL to stay closed because NY is still having a problem. Period.

I've noticed your tone has become more mean-spirited as this thread has gone on. If this conversation upsets you, we can let it go right now.

It's always funny when the self-described "rugged individualists" who claim they admire a "straight-talking/locker-room-talk" president start to whine about "tone" becoming "more mean-spirited".

First, I didn't pit any states against each other, I simply described a simple situation whereby if we start letting people in "less populated states", which have NOT YET had as many cases, start to travel around the country freely to states with greater population which HAVE had more cases, you are clearly going to have additional transmission. You just will. That's not "pitting states against each other". That's saying that if you don't have a NATIONAL plan for testing, then when some family from Wyoming comes down to Florida to visit Disney World, all of the sacrifices we made to "flatten the curve" will go by the wayside.

Second, nobody ever argued AGAINST the phased approach, that's your straw man, you own it. I simply stated that we need a NATIONAL PLAN for how to reopen with consistency (even if phased), and it has already been established that the reports that have been created regarding reopening guidelines are being buried by the White House.

Ultimately, the real issue is that we will very possibly have wasted not only the months of February and March (as far as our response) but also the months of April and May (as far as our quarantining) if we try to piecemeal this problem too quickly.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

I agree with @Pentagon Cane , pointing fingers is not right way to go now . But if you deign to point fingers, pointing them at the NIH/CDC, full of and run and managed by lifetime unelected government employees.

Fauci was more reactive and behind than he should’ve ever been. Saying this is nothing to worry about until late January, recommending that people should go on cruises in March, recommending that people should meet online partners and have ***, while now saying he hopes nobody ever shake hands again ever. The guy has just been all over the place. Do you know what, he was working on limited information. But it just goes to show you, the so-called savior and genius, was saying all the wrong things right in until late March. Does that totally discredit him? No. But we should look at all statements and all predictions with an opened and not a closed mind.

 

[JD08]

It's always funny when the self-described "rugged individualists" who claim they admire a "straight-talking/locker-room-talk" president start to whine about "tone" becoming "more mean-spirited".

First, I didn't pit any states against each other, I simply described a simple situation whereby if we start letting people in "less populated states", which have NOT YET had as many cases, start to travel around the country freely to states with greater population which HAVE had more cases, you are clearly going to have additional transmission. You just will. That's not "pitting states against each other". That's saying that if you don't have a NATIONAL plan for testing, then when some family from Wyoming comes down to Florida to visit Disney World, all of the sacrifices we made to "flatten the curve" will go by the wayside.

Second, nobody ever argued AGAINST the phased approach, that's your straw man, you own it. I simply stated that we need a NATIONAL PLAN for how to reopen with consistency (even if phased), and it has already been established that the reports that have been created regarding reopening guidelines are being buried by the White House.

Ultimately, the real issue is that we will very possibly have wasted not only the months of February and March (as far as our response) but also the months of April and May (as far as our quarantining) if we try to piecemeal this problem too quickly.

I've been polite and respectful this whole conversation. You've gotten more upset with each post and your responses reflect that. I've also never claimed to be a rugged individualist or admire any president, but since you're fond of strawmen...

If you really want to push the one size fits all approach, then let's go there. Maybe the federal government require that nursing home patients who test positive can't return back to the nursing home. Might as well mandate that all public transportation vehicles get disinfected daily.

It isn't the lack of a national policy thats the problem. It's mismanagement at the state level.

 

[NC_Canes_11]

I agree with @Pentagon Cane , pointing fingers is not right way to go now . But if you deign to point fingers, pointing them at the NIH/CDC, full of and run and managed by lifetime unelected government employees.

Fauci was more reactive and behind than he should’ve ever been. Saying this is nothing to worry about until late January, recommending that people should go on cruises in March, recommending that people should meet online partners and have ***, while now saying he hopes nobody ever shake hands again ever. The guy has just been all over the place. Do you know what, he was working on limited information. But it just goes to show you, the so-called savior and genius, was saying all the wrong things right in until late March. Does that totally discredit him? No. But we should look at all statements and all predictions with an opened and not a closed mind.

What is missing from the the conversation around Fauci is more than one opinion of him can be right. People who believe he has everyone’s health in mind can be right, but people who don’t want to listen to him bc they want to go back to work to feed their family can also be right. This isnt black and white. It’s more than fair to criticize someone who has no accountability to voters. He wasn’t elected and he doesn’t seem to be worried about the financial side of these lockdowns. No matter what side of this you’re on, the only people who were 100% right are the ones who said unemployment would skyrocket.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

What is missing from the the conversation around Fauci is more than one opinion of him can be right. People who believe he has everyone’s health in mind can be right, but people who don’t want to listen to him bc they want to go back to work to feed their family can also be right. This isnt black and white. It’s more than fair to criticize someone who has no accountability to voters. He wasn’t elected and he doesn’t seem to be worried about the financial side of these lockdowns. No matter what side of this you’re on, the only people who were 100% right are the ones who said unemployment would skyrocket.

I appreciate your response but I am not on any side for the purposes of this discussion. I’m on the side of what’s best for this country. I can’t even think about two months from now much less the next election. I don’t even care. I want for us to start getting better next week in two weeks and three weeks, in a month. That’s all I’m interested in right now

 

[NC_Canes_11]

I appreciate your response but I am not on any side for the purposes of this discussion. I’m on the side of what’s best for this country. I can’t even think about two months from now much less the next election. I don’t even care. I want for us to start getting better next week in two weeks and three weeks, in a month. That’s all I’m interested in right now

I understand that and that’s what I was getting at. It’s ok to be on either side or no side. Just gotta respect why that person is where they are at. Agreeing to disagree is fine.

 

[Mandingo]

Anyone who wants a test can get a test. Testing is beautiful.

 

[Mandingo]

We back . . . ?

We byke.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Fauci took the position on China transparency as early as late January. That is not opinion that is fact. Again, Fauci is the expert and again you listen to your experts. As late as February Fauci was stating the U.S. had nothing to worry about. As late as March 9th, he advised that it was okay to go cruising unless you were at risk, such as immune deficient, etc. I don't blame Fauci he was working on his 40 years of experience. We just did not know.

BTW, the first confirmed case in Great Britain looks to trace back to late October according to a Telegraph article from six days ago. U.S intelligence confirms China shut down major roads in and out of Wuhan and particularly around the lab in mid-October. I posted an article below that is fair. BTW, the U.S. was working on test kits and they knew they had a problem on January 27th. You think it is easy to mobilize a nation of 355 million? In 1941 the nation rallied around President Roosevelt and we were grossly unprepared. 79 years later all we do is snipe. It's bull****. Again, China is to blame. You want to get political. I refuse to be part of the bed ******* crowd.

How South Korea Successfully Battled COVID-19 While the U.S. Didn’t

Share on PinterestExperts say South Korea introduced testing and other measures more quickly and efficiently than the United States in response to the COVID-19 outbreak. SeongJoon Cho/Bloomberg via Getty Images

• The United States is reporting 15 times more confirmed COVID-19 cases and deaths than South Korea despite having only about six times the population.
• Experts say the disparity is due to South Korea ramping up testing more quickly and implementing preventive measures, such as school closures, earlier.
• South Korea is making tentative plans to reopen some public facilities next week while the United States is expected to keep social distancing mandates in place for at least another month.

All data and statistics are based on publicly available data at the time of publication. Some information may be out of date. Visit our coronavirus hub and follow our live updates page for the most recent information on the COVID-19 outbreak.
The COVID-19 outbreak was identified in South Korea and in the United States on the same day.
In the more than 2 months since then, South Korea has reduced its rate of new daily cases to one-tenth of its peak while the United States likely won’t see that peak for weeks.
South Korea is also tentatively planning to re-open some public facilities as early as next week.
The United States, on the other hand, is likely to have social distancing measures until at least the end of April.
The reasons for the disparity in the two countries’ outcomes have to do with more than just size, experts say.
It has more to do with the United States missing a critical window to ramp up testing and implement precautionary procedures to get on top of the virus.
The United States has more than six times the population of South Korea, but it’s reporting more than 15 times the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases and deaths.
As of Sunday, the United States was listed as having more than 150,000 known COVID-19 cases and more than 2,400 deaths.
As of today, March 30, South Korea is listed as having 9,661 cases and 158 deaths.
Hospital morgues in New York City are expected to reach or surpass capacity soon.
Cities across the country are locked down, a last-ditch step that South Korea was able to avoid.
Experts say things might be different in the United States if the country had taken earlier actions — about a month or two ago — closer to what South Korea did.
Examining this alternate reality might also shed light on where the United States can go from here and whether at least parts of the country can still learn from and catch up with South Korea.
January 19: The same starting point

On January 19, a man checked into an urgent care clinic north of Seattle, Washington, put on a mask, and sat in the waiting room.
The 35-year-old nonsmoker had experienced a cough and a fever for the previous four days. Twenty minutes later, he was taken to an examination room.
The patient told medical personnel he had returned from Wuhan, China, four days earlier.
A battery of tests for various illnesses came back negative. A test for COVID-19 came back positive.
On the same day (January 20 in South Korea), a woman, also 35, arrivedTrusted Source at Incheon International Airport outside Seoul with a fever.
Like the man at the Seattle clinic, she had arrived from Wuhan, where she lived. She was taken to a hospital, where she also tested positive for COVID-19.
“It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine,” President Donald Trump told Americans on January 22.
Late January: Tests come online

On January 27, after four confirmed cases of COVID-19, South Korean health officials met with medical companies.
The officials told the companies they needed them to develop tests for the coronavirus and that they’d rapidly approve new tests.
A week later, the first test was approved.
In early February, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved a coronavirus test developed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
However, it would prove unreliable and mostly unusable.
“We bought ourselves some precious time early on when we closed travel to and from China. That was very important because we reduced introduction. So, we were really in excellent shape at that time,” Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease expert at the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine in Tennessee, told Healthline.
“But we were hampered shortly thereafter because our capacity to test was so curtailed, both on the public and private side,” Schaffner added. “So we didn’t know how widespread the virus was in our country because there wasn’t testing.”

Breaking down both of your posts, we are in agreement on about 80-85%. Where we do disagree can be summed up fairly easily.

Your first post:

First, like you, I don't trust the Chinese either. Long history of insular thinking, lack of sharing, and out-and-out dishonesty. I was JOKINGLY trying to point out Trump's comments about Chinese transparency.

As far as WHEN the Chinese knew anything, you are arguing October, I am citing November (from prior articles I've read). At most, you and I differ by one month. Therefore, the question becomes whether it was negligence/stupidity (the Chinese really didn't know what they were dealing with) vs. bad intent (the Chinese lied about it to purposely infect the world). Or, the more likely explanation, they didn't want to acknowledge that they had a problem on their hands, so they tried to deal with it for a month (or two). Ultimately, you have to analyze the simple concept of "if this was some intentional desire to lie to the world, why did the Chinese government allow the December disclosure to WHO". We are not talking about a year-long cover-up. We are talking about a 6-10 week time period, between when ANYONE in China had any clue that they had a problem until the ultimate disclosure of the problem to WHO.

Finally, in your first post, you state that you don't blame anyone in the US for "Covid 19 and the response". And that's nice. But that conclusion ignores the fact that South Korea, with just as much "hey, we don't know what we have on our hands", took a much more pro-active and aggressive approach. So, yeah, maybe Fauci was saying "no problem guys" for a little while, but that runs counter to what WHO did (warn the world, genome-type the virus, send out the blueprint for the testing kit) and that runs counter to what South Korea did.

And at a certain point, you can't divorce the political reality from what actually happened. WHY would Fauci say "no problem guys". Was it because he tried to say something and the entire administration ignored him? This is a guy who has served under multiple presidents, of both parties. Obama's 8 years involved 3 separate pandemics. So Fauci was just completely wrong? Or did he have pushback in a political sense?

Now, let's move on to your second post.

I won't even address the part of your second post above the photo. Again, you are working overtime to NOT blame the administration. That is your prerogative.

Below the photo, all of the stuff about South Korea is legit.

So ask yourself the REAL question.

Why did South Korea act? Why did the US not act? We can COMPLETELY agree that we would have been far better off doing what South Korea did. Do you think that China secretly gave South Korea more information? Even if that happened, we knew that South Korea was acting more aggressively. They aren't North Korea. We knew what they were doing and we could have followed suit. This is where the VALID criticism of the US response comes from. There was some combination of political and/or structural arrogance that made us think that we were not in danger.

Why?

It's one thing to say "hey, we are an ocean apart". But American business is VASTLY dependent on China for raw materials and manufactured goods, and there is a massive amount of business travel between the US and China. For you to make the comment that China "let their people travel the world", it is just a wild mischaracterization of how world travel occurs and why. You don't take into account AMERICANS who are in China for valid reasons who are returning in the normal course of business. Coronavirus spread not simply because Chinese people travelled, but because ALL people traveled to and from China.

Occam's Razor.

China's leadership (regardless of "communism") is very comparable to the US leadership currently: negligent, arrogant, unwilling to admit to error, secretive, and cover-up oriented (blame anyone but yourself).

DNA/genome evidence supports that this is a zoonotic disease that came from bats. Up to 60% of known infectious diseases in the human population are believed to be zoonotic. Even assuming a mid-October to mid-November start date and a late-December worldwide report date, and with the disorganized nature of the Chinese governmental system, it is very likely that the Chinese had very little idea of what was truly going on at the outset. YES, it was then made worse by Chinese secrecy and a refusal to share the nature of the problem with the world community.

And (for now) setting aside the China portion of the blame, by late December, the world was informed of the problem. South Korea took it seriously. The US did not. We can have further conversations to break down the various forms and percentages of blame to assign to the US and its institutions, but the fact remains, the US did not take the correct actions. For you to say that you don't blame anyone in the US, simply because China didn't speak up for 6-10 weeks, is a farce.

It's also silly to blame Fauci for saying "it's all good, man". There were other intelligence sources, several that warned the President and the administration of the emerging problem. All of those reports were ignored.

To pretend that we had NO INFORMATION...that this entire thing was a SURPRISE...that we couldn't possibly PREPARE...or do anything different...is just a joke, particularly when you yourself cite the aggressive approach taken by South Korea. Which worked a lot better than our "like a miracle, it will disappear when the weather is warmer" approach.

We all know that the US didn't "create" the coronavirus problem. But when we had the chance to act, we wasted months. That is on us, regardless of whether Fauci had some positive things to say at one time. People in positions of power had the information, they chose to ignore it. That's the truth, no matter how much we try not to talk about "politics".

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

View attachment 116950

This is fantastic. Where can I get this? Do they have a peach flavored one?

 

[1LuvCane]

View attachment 116950

You're so caught up with that old man. Seems like you have a geriatric fetish...

 

[JD08]

South Korea had a scare with SARS so they planned ahead to make sure theyd be prepared. In addition to rapidly developing a test (without ******** it up and having to start over), they use EHR data in a way that would violate HIPAA here, and track people via their cell phones. Then, when a person tests positive, they text everyone that they might have crossed paths with and suggest they get tested.

There is a way that could be implemented here without violating privacy laws, but it would require some trust.

 

[gruntking]

I understand that and that’s what I was getting at. It’s ok to be on either side or no side. Just gotta respect why that person is where they are at. Agreeing to disagree is fine.

On CIS let's agree to disagree is taboo. If you think differently... you are a mongoloid, a moron or have low IQ.

 

[gruntking]

On CIS let's agree to disagree is taboo. If you think differently... you are a mongoloid, a moron or have low IQ.

Bro I'm not being funny!

 

[Empirical Cane]

Don't you realize that the only countries in the world that shut down are ones where Democrats are in charge?

Don't you realize that the only countries in the world that shut down are ones where morons are in charge?

I fixed it.

 

[Empirical Cane]

On CIS let's agree to disagree is taboo. If you think differently... you are a mongoloid, a moron or have low IQ.

Truth hurts.

 

[Empirical Cane]

I didn't say we should use China's test, but you do know that a lot of our medication is made in China. You can thank our US pharmaceutical companies for that.

Actually, you can thank decades of our politicians who gave waiver after waiver to critical NSSP item's sourcing.

 

[Tad Footeball]

Look, I do not claim to be an expert in whether China has been transparent, but I have 100% trust and faith in what this very stable genius has to say:

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!” Trump wrote in a tweet.

I've seen dudes contort themselves into positions not seen since Candi Fisher's last gang bang to blame China for not being transparent.....and then giving Orange Jesus a pass for the YUGE level of negligence and gullibility for even be remotely in the position TO be deceived by China. That's their excuse. President "Only I Can Fix It" was too trusting.

It's all irrelevant though. This quote exists and will always exist and is the discussion ender:

“And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."