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Off-Topic Ukraine

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WaterburyCane said:
I appreciate this thread being started @JD08 This is a very dangerous situation with global impact. I try not to get into political/racial/religious discussions on this board. I prefer a cold beer and healthy discussion on my porch for those type of topics that tend to spiral on a message board. But this isnt a political R vs D ****ing match, so I'll chime in with a few points:

1) I have a next level respect for the Ukranian people. These are tough SOB's with a lot of pride and not afraid of a fight or sacrifice.

2) They need immediate help. These sanctions are weak and have no immediate impact. Its great to discuss in our living room, but for people hiding out in a bomb shelter of stuck in a 30 mile traffic jam trying to flee with possibility of not enough food to make it to their destination, more needs to be done that will have immediate impact. A No Fly Zone would be great right now. Tricky part is who to execute. Cant have anyone with a US flag doing it and unfortunately NATO troops cant either. Hopefully the world can help empower the Ukraine military in that aspect. Cant turn back time now, but European countries (and the US for that matter) should have had alternatives in place so they can shut down energy consumption/purchases from Russia. That will hurt as much as anything. That lever should still be pulled, but it gets a little trickier to do in 1 swoop when you dont have backup plans ready to take the wheel immediately with as much as some of these countries are dependent on Russia. There are plenty of other levers to pull as well.

3) US authorized another 350 million in supplies/equipment etc. Thats great and all, but a little late. I do wonder how logistically we get this stuff to them.

4) 1st major war where a guy with a laptop and mouse could have as big/if not bigger impact than the soldier with a gun. Cyberwar is a big part of this and where the outside world can really help, particularly groups like Anonymous that dont have to declare a country. This is the world I operate in, so I'll be following this particularly closely. Putin miscalculated here a bit I believe. From what Im seeing, he didnt do nearly enough pre-invasion on the cyber side to help make the invasion go smoother for his troops. Oh well.

5) Germany is a very important factor. They are now offering supplies and such. They cant be on the sidelines here. @Bender I appreciate all of your posts man and hope you will continue to post more from your viewpoint. But all the countries need to help. Putin WILL NOT stop if/when he gets Ukraine territory. He does not want to be bordered by NATO members. He has Belarus in his pocket but that and the Ukraine is still not enough for him and what he sees as the future of Russia. This needs to stop here and now.

6. I think Putin miscalculated his own people. The Russian people (in general of course) do not want this war either. How will they fight/protest and affect the situation? I wonder what the morale/conviction of his military is like? Its not a matter of if, but when the overtake Kyiv....however Im guessing even people around Putin will be second guessing this move and their loyalty towards country or President as this drags out.

7. Taiwan should be on alert and there should be zero surprises there when it happens. Within 18 months?

8. Grey Goose for me as I pray for the families in the Ukraine
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Awesome post man.
 
SpikeUM said:
It does mean that a majority of the public, including independents and even some Democrats, believe Biden is a weaker leader than Trump. And its not a stretch to think Putin and Xi think the same, especially after Afghanistan.
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That may be true but we’ll never accurately know one way or the other. But thats not what we are talking about though as it relates to the events over the last few days and the events leading up to them over the last few months…
 
WaterburyCane said:
I appreciate this thread being started @JD08 This is a very dangerous situation with global impact. I try not to get into political/racial/religious discussions on this board. I prefer a cold beer and healthy discussion on my porch for those type of topics that tend to spiral on a message board. But this isnt a political R vs D ****ing match, so I'll chime in with a few points:

1) I have a next level respect for the Ukranian people. These are tough SOB's with a lot of pride and not afraid of a fight or sacrifice.

2) They need immediate help. These sanctions are weak and have no immediate impact. Its great to discuss in our living room, but for people hiding out in a bomb shelter of stuck in a 30 mile traffic jam trying to flee with possibility of not enough food to make it to their destination, more needs to be done that will have immediate impact. A No Fly Zone would be great right now. Tricky part is who to execute. Cant have anyone with a US flag doing it and unfortunately NATO troops cant either. Hopefully the world can help empower the Ukraine military in that aspect. Cant turn back time now, but European countries (and the US for that matter) should have had alternatives in place so they can shut down energy consumption/purchases from Russia. That will hurt as much as anything. That lever should still be pulled, but it gets a little trickier to do in 1 swoop when you dont have backup plans ready to take the wheel immediately with as much as some of these countries are dependent on Russia. There are plenty of other levers to pull as well.

3) US authorized another 350 million in supplies/equipment etc. Thats great and all, but a little late. I do wonder how logistically we get this stuff to them.

4) 1st major war where a guy with a laptop and mouse could have as big/if not bigger impact than the soldier with a gun. Cyberwar is a big part of this and where the outside world can really help, particularly groups like Anonymous that dont have to declare a country. This is the world I operate in, so I'll be following this particularly closely. Putin miscalculated here a bit I believe. From what Im seeing, he didnt do nearly enough pre-invasion on the cyber side to help make the invasion go smoother for his troops. Oh well.

5) Germany is a very important factor. They are now offering supplies and such. They cant be on the sidelines here. @Bender I appreciate all of your posts man and hope you will continue to post more from your viewpoint. But all the countries need to help. Putin WILL NOT stop if/when he gets Ukraine territory. He does not want to be bordered by NATO members. He has Belarus in his pocket but that and the Ukraine is still not enough for him and what he sees as the future of Russia. This needs to stop here and now.

6. I think Putin miscalculated his own people. The Russian people (in general of course) do not want this war either. How will they fight/protest and affect the situation? I wonder what the morale/conviction of his military is like? Its not a matter of if, but when the overtake Kyiv....however Im guessing even people around Putin will be second guessing this move and their loyalty towards country or President as this drags out.

7. Taiwan should be on alert and there should be zero surprises there when it happens. Within 18 months?

8. Grey Goose for me as I pray for the families in the Ukraine
Click to expand...

If we have known for months that Russia was building up for an invasion, why the heck didnt we arm/resupply Ukraine months ago?!?

Same now with Taiwan, we know they are at risk, we need to help them NOW.

p.s. Wouldnt the billions in arms we left behind in Afghanistan be useful now in Ukraine?
 
SpikeUM said:
If we have known for months that Russia was building up for an invasion, why the heck didnt we arm/resupply Ukraine months ago?!?

Same now with Taiwan, we know they are at risk, we need to help them NOW.

p.s. Wouldnt the billions in arms we left behind in Afghanistan be useful now in Ukraine?
Click to expand...
Oh you didn’t hear? The Taliban are calling for peace and are monitoring the situation closely. Actual quote.
 
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Mike6094 said:
That may be true but we’ll never accurately know one way or the other. But thats not what we are talking about though as it relates to the events over the last few days and the events leading up to them over the last few months…
Click to expand...

IMHO, your hate of Trump (who I agree has a brutal personality) is clouding your judgement.

I was channel surfing for Ukraine coverage, and went to CNN. Smerconish was on, and he ran a poll, “should the US go to war over Ukraine” They had 38K responses, a record for one of their polls, and 77% said YES.

He was flabbergasted, and said that it was shocking that a CNN audience would want to go to war over Ukraine. He then read a comment from someone blaming him and the press for Biden’s low approval ratings. He replied that they were merely reporting Afghanistan, inflation, Ukraine and the border issues, they weren’t making up news (yea, I know ironic).

That was CNN viewers, so your views are definitely in the minority.
 
WaterburyCane said:
I appreciate this thread being started @JD08 This is a very dangerous situation with global impact. I try not to get into political/racial/religious discussions on this board. I prefer a cold beer and healthy discussion on my porch for those type of topics that tend to spiral on a message board. But this isnt a political R vs D ****ing match, so I'll chime in with a few points:

1) I have a next level respect for the Ukranian people. These are tough SOB's with a lot of pride and not afraid of a fight or sacrifice.

2) They need immediate help. These sanctions are weak and have no immediate impact. Its great to discuss in our living room, but for people hiding out in a bomb shelter of stuck in a 30 mile traffic jam trying to flee with possibility of not enough food to make it to their destination, more needs to be done that will have immediate impact. A No Fly Zone would be great right now. Tricky part is who to execute. Cant have anyone with a US flag doing it and unfortunately NATO troops cant either. Hopefully the world can help empower the Ukraine military in that aspect. Cant turn back time now, but European countries (and the US for that matter) should have had alternatives in place so they can shut down energy consumption/purchases from Russia. That will hurt as much as anything. That lever should still be pulled, but it gets a little trickier to do in 1 swoop when you dont have backup plans ready to take the wheel immediately with as much as some of these countries are dependent on Russia. There are plenty of other levers to pull as well.

3) US authorized another 350 million in supplies/equipment etc. Thats great and all, but a little late. I do wonder how logistically we get this stuff to them.

4) 1st major war where a guy with a laptop and mouse could have as big/if not bigger impact than the soldier with a gun. Cyberwar is a big part of this and where the outside world can really help, particularly groups like Anonymous that dont have to declare a country. This is the world I operate in, so I'll be following this particularly closely. Putin miscalculated here a bit I believe. From what Im seeing, he didnt do nearly enough pre-invasion on the cyber side to help make the invasion go smoother for his troops. Oh well.

5) Germany is a very important factor. They are now offering supplies and such. They cant be on the sidelines here. @Bender I appreciate all of your posts man and hope you will continue to post more from your viewpoint. But all the countries need to help. Putin WILL NOT stop if/when he gets Ukraine territory. He does not want to be bordered by NATO members. He has Belarus in his pocket but that and the Ukraine is still not enough for him and what he sees as the future of Russia. This needs to stop here and now.

6. I think Putin miscalculated his own people. The Russian people (in general of course) do not want this war either. How will they fight/protest and affect the situation? I wonder what the morale/conviction of his military is like? Its not a matter of if, but when the overtake Kyiv....however Im guessing even people around Putin will be second guessing this move and their loyalty towards country or President as this drags out.

7. Taiwan should be on alert and there should be zero surprises there when it happens. Within 18 months?

8. Grey Goose for me as I pray for the families in the Ukraine
Click to expand...
1. The intent is to talk about a current event, not to hash out grudges. Policy without politics is possible.

2. I'm pretty sure I just got invited to your front porch. I'll bring a bottle.
 
SpikeUM said:
It does mean that a majority of the public, including independents and even some Democrats, believe Biden is a weaker leader than Trump. And its not a stretch to think Putin and Xi think the same, especially after Afghanistan.
Click to expand...
Airforce are about to mothball dozens of A10s and F15s. I can think of a more productive use for them.

(this was supposed to be in response to another one of your posts!)
 
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SpikeUM said:
IMHO, your hate of Trump (who I agree has a brutal personality) is clouding your judgement.

I was channel surfing for Ukraine coverage, and went to CNN. Smerconish was on, and he ran a poll, “should the US go to war over Ukraine” They had 38K responses, a record for one of their polls, and 77% said YES.

He was flabbergasted, and said that it was shocking that a CNN audience would want to go to war over Ukraine. He then read a comment from someone blaming him and the press for Biden’s low approval ratings. He replied that they were merely reporting Afghanistan, inflation, Ukraine and the border issues, they weren’t making up news (yea, I know ironic).

That was CNN viewers, so your views are definitely in the minority.
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Nope. You’re wrong. I had supported some of Trump’s policies just like I have supported some of Biden’s policies. You’re deflecting from my original comment/question that wasn’t even directed to you. So you’re just being emotional is basically what’s going on…
 
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wspcane said:
This is like posters who want proof that a guy took a bag to sign with another school.
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Opinions are like buttholes. I was just curious if he could provide some direct support behind his statements. I was asking for too much. I apologize
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
Did you read the articles or just the headlines? The article even says they are their equivalent of the green berets vs marines. If we had 100 Green berets going against 1500 British troops we would have destroyed them. Not to mention the British army allows trannys and women to join as well, so your point is moot.

You have been listening to to much disguised Russain propaganda with your "We are going to lose against the toughman russians, because we allowed girls and LGBT people into our armed forces. The tough Russians would never allow such a thing!"
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I guess you’re just gonna ignore the fact that every army has SF guys. And ignore the Chinese games and current and former generals saying we aren’t ready.

It’s all fun and games to beat your chest about our troops, until that fire that happened at port (that they couldn’t put out) happens in open ocean and 4,000 people die.
 
NC_Canes_11 said:
I guess you’re just gonna ignore the fact that every army has SF guys. And ignore the Chinese games and current and former generals saying we aren’t ready.

It’s all fun and games to beat your chest about our troops, until that fire that happened at port (that they couldn’t put out) happens in open ocean and 4,000 people die.
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What kind of moronic point is that? Of course every army has SF guy. You compare apples to apples. Comparing our regular Marines to a British elite unit is idiotic. Out of the 200+ generals we have, you found 2. Neither of which said "we would certainly lose to Russia or China". That is less than 1% of generals. Keep sucking up the Russian propaganda.
 
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SpikeUM said:
If we have known for months that Russia was building up for an invasion, why the heck didnt we arm/resupply Ukraine months ago?!?

Same now with Taiwan, we know they are at risk, we need to help them NOW.

p.s. Wouldnt the billions in arms we left behind in Afghanistan be useful now in Ukraine?
Click to expand...
Ive given up trying to figure out why our government does what it does and when. One of the most poorly run institutions in modern civilization. The US and the Miami Dolphins. Go figure lol.

I suspect a few things though. We have so many issues going on state side that this was not high priority and had on the surface, little immediate benefit to us. 1st rules of politics seem to be how can I benefit, and how can I take credit for the good stuff, while laying blame for the bad stuff on my opposition. I think also that the Biden admin was really crossing his fingers hoping this wouldnt happen as this would shine a big ole spotlight on the energy/oil debate as it relates to national security instead of the environment.

Afghanistan..ugh..so much went wrong I dont even know what to say. But China could give 2 $hits about Russia and Putin. That relationship is completely self serving and now when China invades Taiwan, he knows Putin will stay the **** out of it at the least, and at the most be an ally in some others ways. I really hope smarter people than us are making plans, preparations for that in those dark rooms where we dont hear about.
 
PCBcanefan said:
Where are you getting this info, other than whoever this doctor guy is? I've looked everywhere from the smallest to the largest news sites and haven't seen anyone else reporting this. Not sure what it matters if he is on the front lines or in a bunker, but I have seen videos and live streams of all walks of life in Ukraine being armed and ready with AK's.
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Here’s snake isaland proof from Ukraine. Idk what more proof you need about Zelensky those are old photos, with the dates on them. I never said he wasn’t still there, I said those are being passed around as current which they are not. FWIW there was a private jet that took off from the capital, with a military escort right before the invasion started. Hasn’t been confirmed who all was on it though. The “ghost of Kyiv” picture that circulated was a picture from an advertisement for light weight helmets. They might be shooting down Russian jets, but the odds that it’s one guy is basically zero.

It’s basic level war propaganda. It’s how you keep morale up. My point is don’t believe everything you see or hear.
 
JD08 said:
1. The intent is to talk about a current event, not to hash out grudges. Policy without politics is possible.

2. I'm pretty sure I just got invited to your front porch. I'll bring a bottle.
Click to expand...
Any time, any topic. Thats where the real progress happens my man :) We can solve some of the world's problems together. With logical, rational minds (and liquor), anything is possible.
 
Question for this esteemed panel:

Knowing now how dangerous today's world is, with Russia threatening numerous countries and China potentially going into Taiwan, and we still have Iran, North Korea, etc. etc., does your candidate of preference for '24 change? For example, do you now favor HRC now since she has SOS experience? Is Pompeo higher on your list for the same reason (SOS, CIA, military)?

@JD08 you can delete if too political, but this is not meant to be R vs. D, just curious if the hot buttons have changed.
 
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