Someone Educate Me

[g8rh8rMD]

TheUBack said:
Yes, but med school deans, law school deans, physicists etc are lucky to see a quarter of that. **** I'd be shocked if Julio is clearing over 2/year. This business has become so large that priorities are completely out of line in this.

If intercollegiate athletics were legit, guys with NFL ability/talent would be able to go to an academy like with European Soccer at 16-18 and learn to become professional ballplayers.

In an ideal world, "college football" would look a lot more like a frat intramural. Guys who were admitted to the schools are STUDENTS only, no hyphens necessary, against the students of another school. Of course they'd be going pro in something else. The coach would make a professor salary (150-200k) and there wouldn't be any scholarships.

As it is now it's just a **** mess all the way around
nailed it

nailed it

Nailed what? What does intercollegiate athletics have to do with any of this? The NCAA and member schools don't and can't prevent kids from going to european soccer style academies. The truth of the matter is that no one with the capital to do so has built such an academy. The reason for that is that there isn't value in doing so.

The world is not a social experiment where utopia can be created.

 

[g8rh8rMD]

The NCAA is incapable of fixing that it's way over their head, they are the equivalent a local Sheriff dept from a town of 200 people tasked with policing Chicago. Colleges are for profit and they exploit non athletes just as much with fluff classes, and credits that don't transfer.

Your first sentence is wrong. The NCAA is absolutely capable of policing their own universities. Perhaps not as currently constructed under the current head douche in charge. They just aren't held to account by the media or their member institutions and haven't committed the necessary resources. What we're talking about here is a multi-billion dollar industry that rinses, what, a milliion bucks or so into enforcement, just to pretend they care? Just because they don't do it, doesn't mean they can't.

The second sentence is absolutely true. Attending graduation at Clemson last week for my brother in law was an eye opener. These places are absolute diploma mills where they don't even know who the **** their students are, nor do they care. It's a ******* numbers game. I was sickened, but seemed to be the only one. Not only that, they hadn't even graduated a single person yet and were already giving the "give back" pitch. WTF???

 

[423Hurricane]

Vehemently disagree, as a former college athlete. Studies have shown that student-athletes get better grades, have better social lives and social skills, are better adjusted, etc, etc, etc.

The revenue sports have certainly perverted the equation to an extent, but they are a small drop in the bucket compared to all student athletes at 4 year colleges across the country.

This has also been shown at the high school level as well. ****, when I was playing at the optimist level, I had to keep my grades up or couldn't play.

 

[CFLCane]

Your first sentence is wrong. The NCAA is absolutely capable of policing their own universities. Perhaps not as currently constructed under the current head douche in charge. They just aren't held to account by the media or their member institutions and haven't committed the necessary resources. What we're talking about here is a multi-billion dollar industry that rinses, what, a milliion bucks or so into enforcement, just to pretend they care? Just because they don't do it, doesn't mean they can't.

The second sentence is absolutely true. Attending graduation at Clemson last week for my brother in law was an eye opener. These places are absolute diploma mills where they don't even know who the **** their students are, nor do they care. It's a ******* numbers game. I was sickened, but seemed to be the only one. Not only that, they hadn't even graduated a single person yet and were already giving the "give back" pitch. WTF???

The NCAA has 57 people on its enforcement staff.

129 D1 football schools
10,500+ D1 football athletes
Countless recruits

460,000 NCAA athletes across 24 sports and 50 states at any given time.

They don't stand a chance at enforcing anything. It's by design.

 

[423Hurricane]

Something to consider is the percentage of student athletes to total student population - particularly football student athletes. With 85 football schollies versus 10-12k total students at the U, the percentage is minuscule (do the math if you can). At university's with 3 or 4 times the student population of the U, the percentages are obviously even more exaggerated. These numbers prove that universities are first and foremost institutions of higher learning for ALL of the enrollees. Football student athletes just happen to get most of the attention for obvious reasons.

 

[segundo82]

This has also been shown at the high school level as well. ****, when I was playing at the optimist level, I had to keep my grades up or couldn't play.

That's the thing I don't see people really answer either. Is how would the non revenue sports be affected. Not all schools make money off their sports. If these kids got paid uncle Sam would need a cut. Could schools afford to pay football and keep other sports?

 

[Canezum5]

TheUBack said:
Yes, but med school deans, law school deans, physicists etc are lucky to see a quarter of that. **** I'd be shocked if Julio is clearing over 2/year. This business has become so large that priorities are completely out of line in this.

If intercollegiate athletics were legit, guys with NFL ability/talent would be able to go to an academy like with European Soccer at 16-18 and learn to become professional ballplayers.

In an ideal world, "college football" would look a lot more like a frat intramural. Guys who were admitted to the schools are STUDENTS only, no hyphens necessary, against the students of another school. Of course they'd be going pro in something else. The coach would make a professor salary (150-200k) and there wouldn't be any scholarships.

As it is now it's just a **** mess all the way around
nailed it


Nailed what? What does intercollegiate athletics have to do with any of this? The NCAA and member schools don't and can't prevent kids from going to european soccer style academies. The truth of the matter is that no one with the capital to do so has built such an academy. The reason for that is that there isn't value in doing so.

The world is not a social experiment where utopia can be created.

HE nailed the post. I agree with it. I think it SHOLUD be that way. Maybe no one has done it because there is already a system in place that they don't want to compete against.

True, the world isn't a social experiment.( For us commoners) What's the point in expressing that? We are conversing. Its a message board.

Half the shid said is just conjecture. It was a good post

 

[Jonnyblaze]

In theory I don't have a problem with giving players a little bit of money based on the revenue they helped the college generate. The problem is you can never really implement it with any degree of fairness. That's why I would never work.

 

[Canedude08]

Vehemently disagree, as a former college athlete. Studies have shown that student-athletes get better grades, have better social lives and social skills, are better adjusted, etc, etc, etc.

The revenue sports have certainly perverted the equation to an extent, but they are a small drop in the bucket compared to all student athletes at 4 year colleges across the country.

No one gives a crap about the kid on the rowing team. As you noted yourself, the numbers are skewed by the non-revenue sport athletes. College sports shouldn't be a financial enterprise. Keep the non-revenue sports if you want, but we all know those sports wouldn't be able to survive, if they had to swim on their own. It's the revenue sports that make the entire enterprise possible, and it's beyond sad that the people who are on the front lines have fewer financial rights than any other person on campus.

 

[StoneWallLoungeCane]

The NCAA is a criminal organization that has been violating antitrust laws for decades. Many people should and eventually will be prosecuted over their scheme to deprive college athletes of the right to make money.

 

[Earnest T. Bass]

"bottle" adds a little more sheen to your grey hair.

At some point, hopefully for your sake, you will learn that you don't know what you don't know.

In my early 30's I was blessed with a "grey hair" mentor. But unlike you, I hung on his every word and learned things about business and life that proved to be invaluable to me, and indirectly, my family.

I've had kids like you work for my company who truly believed they knew significantly more about life/business than those who have the battle scars that come with years and years of life experiences. Those kids were eventually fired and since then they've bounced around from job to job still not getting that their life experiences are limited in scope and they don't have all of the answers. This is not to say that your ideas should not be heard and given serious consideration.

One of the kids I referenced above would come to me and confess that had he taken the advice I had given him he would have enjoyed a better outcome concerning a particular issue. He scored points with me due to his integrity, but that scenario repeated itself enough times where I was forced to terminate him. No matter how many times I gave him my "grey haired" advice, he simply new better. Sound familiar?

With 100% certainty, this is the path you are headed down. Should your response be that you are fantastically successful (highly doubtful) then I know that had you listened to and respected qualified "Grey hairs" you would be considerably more successful. Unfortunately, this post has a one in a million chance of opening your eyes...

 

[Pearson704]

Realizing we have an existing legacy system in place cemented by TV contracts, I don't think we can kill the NCAA outright and college football(I'm not trying to lose my Canes, now), but I think there can be some major reform to pay these kids.

If you are against paying the players, then you must support the current structure of all the old heads getting paid at the kids expense. Wait, the kids expense?!!? Fast forward 30 years in the future and a kid like Joe Yearby could POSSIBLY have made $100,000 for his time in college football. Enough to give him a solid foundation for his future and KID. Instead, he made big moolah for old farts sitting at the school and for the broadcasting companies.

This isn't right, man. We're slaving the kids away to pay CBS, ABC, ESPN, AND ON AND ON AND ON. Our football players also sacrifice the world to pay for obsolete jobs at UM in education. When a job gets created at a school, do you honestly think they would ever lay that person off? They operate just like a private sector business -- they will protect that job behind the broad side of the "Education Umbrella".

And dear god if you say "OH WE GIVE THEM COLLEGE DEGREES"... Just look at my grammar and then say that sh*t again. Players can't have jobs while playing football, not at big time schools.


Sorry for inducing the brain pain, but man, can someone please explain to me how slave labor is still going on????? Mike Vrabel said it best, the NCAA is running the NFL's farm system for free. Rip my eyeballs out now...

do you advocate uniform pay for all student athletes or a sliding scale based on talent and revenue?

 

[RangerGranger]

At some point, hopefully for your sake, you will learn that you don't know what you don't know.

In my early 30's I was blessed with a "grey hair" mentor. But unlike you, I hung on his every word and learned things about business and life that proved to be invaluable to me, and indirectly, my family.

I've had kids like you work for my company who truly believed they knew significantly more about life/business than those who have the battle scars that come with years and years of life experiences. Those kids were eventually fired and since then they've bounced around from job to job still not getting that their life experiences are limited in scope and they don't have all of the answers. This is not to say that your ideas should not be heard and given serious consideration.

One of the kids I referenced above would come to me and confess that had he taken the advice I had given him he would have enjoyed a better outcome concerning a particular issue. He scored points with me due to his integrity, but that scenario repeated itself enough times where I was forced to terminate him. No matter how many times I gave him my "grey haired" advice, he simply new better. Sound familiar?

With 100% certainty, this is the path you are headed down. Should your response be that you are fantastically successful (highly doubtful) then I know that had you listened to and respected qualified "Grey hairs" you would be considerably more successful. Unfortunately, this post has a one in a million chance of opening your eyes...

Dude, he said "bottle". The newer generations burn ****. You missed the point of that entirely and may god bless your soul.

However, ya boy was birthed to a good ol boy(Hardee county wuz good) and a spanish/Slovakian mom. 3 kids when pops was 26 and mom was 22. . So we move uptown -- Polk county in 1994, I was 2. We still live in the same house, and now all 3 brothers make 82k,90k+,and 76k+ as professional nerds. All 28 and under. And pops, the war veteran who was laid off from the mines, lets just say he's recently over 6 figs at a company for 25 years!. And my mom who was the glue. From a small drug infested neighborhood, I think we beat the odds by doing something right. What i'm trying to say is go fk yourself.

According to you, I'm going to fail in life because fkFace wouldn't concede my point, as I had already done his. Man, huh?

 

[RangerGranger]

do you advocate uniform pay for all student athletes or a sliding scale based on talent and revenue?

Haven't put much thought to it. I used yearby as en example because he did have some good production here at UM. There would have to be some type of performance incentive.

 

[OrdunaDrive]

Here is what was said:
TheUBack said:
When the next Eric Legrand **** near kills himself, and it WILL happen, if the player is an employee that school, or the collection of schools contributing to the insurance pool will be on the hook for millions. If the players are "officially" paid that means game over.

The finances alone doom this idea. Now I think that universities shouldn't be in the business of running Farm Teams anyway but that's a different kettle of fish.

OrdunaDrive said:
That doesn't make any sense. If the "school, or collection of schools" are contributing to an insurance pool, then the insurer is on the hook for millions, not the schools. That's the point of insurance.

So, UBack said (essentially) that the cost of worker's comp insurance would doom the idea of treating players as employees (it being implicitly understood that paying them makes them employees, thus requiring this type of injury and disability insurance).

You said, and I'll paraphrase here (while quoting you above) for purposes of clarity, "That doesn't make any sense. If the school buys insurance, the cost of the claims is on the insurer, not the schools". I'm not sure how I misunderstood your statement, but you clearly seemed to indicate that the act of buying insurance would insulate the schools from the cost of the inevitable claims that would arise. To me, that seemed to indicate an incredible disconnect. So I pointed out how the math works.

I apologize if you are well aware of the economic principle behind insurance, but your previous post seemed to indicate otherwise. Based off of recent events and my personal interactions with others, I believe you are not alone in that misconception.

I do not believe that I personally insulted you, or anyone specifically, but do humbly apologize if you felt I did. You may note that I typically take great care to avoid doing so and have no interest in insulting anyone personally. I've got no beef with you, just with what you said in that one post.

Cheers

Clearly I am digesting the original post differently than you. OP indicated that WHEN the next horrific injury occurs (assuming a player-employee scenario) that the schools involved in insuring said player would THEN be on the hook for millions. To state the obvious: if you have already purchased insurance, and then an injury which your insurance covers occurs, your insurer pays for that injury. OP says nothing about the initial cost of workman's comp prior to said injury. You appear to have assumed that. It is an entirely reasonable point to raise, but that wasn't what he said.

I've probably gotten myself into the weeds concerning a topic I'm certainly no expert in. My position concerning player pay is that they should be allowed to profit from their likeness, but not necessarily become employees of the university and receive salaries (or require workman's comp)

I appreciate your humble apology, and do genuinely appreciate your posting contributions to CIS. I find them intelligent and considered.

 

[Twhizman]

What are we teaching our kids on one hand if a elected official or a judge takes a bribe we put them in jail.on the other hand society says we will look the other way when it comes to sports and the ton of cash it brings in.and the economic impact on gameday.today there is no difference between the pros or college.just one is openly paid while in college a few stars are paid under the table.that's where the problem is the not so good players see it and they want a piece of that pie.

 

[Earnest T. Bass]

Dude, he said "bottle". The newer generations burn ****. You missed the point of that entirely and may god bless your soul.

However, ya boy was birthed to a good ol boy(Hardee county wuz good) and a spanish/Slovakian mom. 3 kids when pops was 26 and mom was 22. . So we move uptown -- Polk county in 1994, I was 2. We still live in the same house, and now all 3 brothers make 82k,90k+,and 76k+ as professional nerds. All 28 and under. And pops, the war veteran who was laid off from the mines, lets just say he's recently over 6 figs at a company for 25 years!. And my mom who was the glue. From a small drug infested neighborhood, I think we beat the odds by doing something right. What i'm trying to say is go fk yourself.

According to you, I'm going to fail in life because fkFace wouldn't concede my point, as I had already done his. Man, huh?

"Dude"?? An intellectual giant you're not.

So, do you think "Pops the war veteran" is also in that class of know nothing "grey hairs"? How about your mom, "the glue", is she another of those "grey hairs" who you are so much smarter than?

As I mentioned earlier...this post has a one in a million chance of opening your eyes...you don't know what you don't know.

PS; Your life experience would have been a day at the beach during my formative years.

 

[OrdunaDrive]

OK, what value do the players produce? How do you determine that? Which came first, the players, or the university's/teams? Take a great player, say Baker Mayfield, who is immensely popular and just won the Heisman and went 1/1 in the last NFL draft. How much "value" did he create for the University of Oklahoma? Would the team have ceased playing football had Baker decided to major in Biochemical Engineering and not play football? Would they have not won any games last year? Would no one have come to the games? Or would they have just found another QB to suit up and play?

People who make this argument see all of the TV revenues, ticket sales, coaches salaries, etc, and just assume that all of that "value" is created by the players themselves when, in fact, the players are actually highly replaceable, and much of the value is actually created by the capital that built the stadiums, made the uniforms, put together the flashy TV and myriad other media product, etc, etc, etc. The truth is, for every player who wants to be paid, there are a thousand more who literally go to bed every night in highschool DREAMING of the chance at a D1 scholarship.

If the value was truly in the player, someone would be building a minor league for football and paying these players the "value they produce" (or, because there still needs to be profit, because, well, science, a portion of that value after capital costs, overhead, taxes, profit, etc) to skip college and go pro straight out of high school or even sooner. The trouble is, no one would go to those games. And that's because it's the colleges themselves that actually produce most of the interest and the "value".

The fact of the matter is, D1 college athletes are getting a great deal. Are they getting the full "free market value" that they produce? No, almost certainly not. No one does, not even Elon freaking Musk. That's not how the world works. And even if we were to go about determining exactly how much "value" a college athlete produces, it would be nearly impossible to do so. Bottom line, at the end of the day, it is a "free market", black market included. The student-athletes have the choice to participate in the system or not. As to the 3 year rule, that is the NFL's decision, not the NCAA's, go ***** to that ape Goodell about that, it has nothing to do with college football. College football can't keep players in school. Guys can leave whenever they please.

I wouldn't suggest that schools or the NCAA determine the exact worth of the contributions of specific players. I don't assume that all of the "value" is created by players alone, and agree with you entirely that salaries would be arbitrary and fraught with nonsense. Of course it's more or less what the NFL does and they seem to survive...

I also agree that the "college-iness" of the sport separates it from just a minor league game. The bargaining position is definitely in favor of the universities for good reason. That said, college athletes aren't getting a "great" deal. Yes there are millions of others that would trade places, but that's because those millions of others don't have any ******* talent and skill. The players are not replaceable, otherwise recruiting would be utterly pointless. Sign anybody up! The players are bringing their totally unique skill to the table, and paying a heavy physical price for doing so.

I could care less about the 3 year NFL rule.

What I am a proponent of is allowing players to profit from their likeness, not receive a salary. A token percentage of university sales bearing their image, and the ability to sign endorsement deals. Let everyone from shoe companies to local businesses ascertain the value of these guys. This position opens up its own can of worms which I'm happy to discuss/learn about/etc.

 

[RangerGranger]

"Dude"?? An intellectual giant you're not.

So, do you think "Pops the war veteran" is also in that class of know nothing "grey hairs"? How about your mom, "the glue", is she another of those "grey hairs" who you are so much smarter than?

As I mentioned earlier...this post has a one in a million chance of opening your eyes...you don't know what you don't know.

PS; Your life experience would have been a day at the beach during my formative years.

Dude (my signature word btw), I'm glad you got the point that I can listen to "grey hairs". That was me telling you I could; I'm sorry I implied it. I should have said it explicitly.

 

[Pearson704]

Don't assume things for me. ew bih.

Dad is 100+ without college working at a grocery chain.
Bro got 5 cisco certs and banks 90+ in central Florida at 27 y/o. This is a huge example of what I'm talking about.

I'm just the kid willing to go against what they tell me. I got rammed with student loans and I'm looking out for others.

Sure, 15+ years to graduate a neurosurgeon with 200k+ in debt vs putting that time into a solid (city, state, or federal) job w/ 401k and pension may be an argument, but It depends on what you want to do with your life...?

It looks really bad for the kids who don't get into med or law school and end up with some middling degree (biology, psychology or criminal justice), or those who achieve their goals just to live with debt for the rest of their lives, but that's simply playing the result.

I think the better argument is should counselors, mentors, and parents advocate for the 20 years and retire at 40 plan? I know I do. I tell kids all the time about my friend who's been working the post office since 18, but they can't see 20yrs ahead. I gave my spiel to this 20 y.o. the other day and she says, "yea, but thats not for everybody." God bless her because she was right in more ways than she knew.
It's the curse and gift of youth because some people defy the odds by daring to think big.

You're not entirely wrong @kgranger17, but you're not entirely right either.