Some trends for perspective

[westcoastcanes]

Show me trends alllllll day but we're a long way away.

Its because we saw bama and UGA play, they make u feel that way. But Dmoney bring proof to the table and hes right when u look at it that way

We are a long way away from the best team in our own conference, not just the country. People can make excuses about injuries and momentum, but clemson could have beat us by 50 if they wanted to.

Beside, proof that Richt, a seasoned veteran from the SEC with a strong track record does a better job than Golden in his first power five head coaching job and Randy in his first power 5 head coaching job? Groundbreaking analysis, who would have seen that coming.

 

[Dwinstitles]

Show me trends alllllll day but we're a long way away.

Its because we saw bama and UGA play, they make u feel that way. But Dmoney bring proof to the table and hes right when u look at it that way

We are a long way away from the best team in our own conference, not just the country. People can make excuses about injuries and momentum, but clemson could have beat us by 50 if they wanted to.

Beside, proof that Richt does a better job than Golden in his first power five job and Randy in his first power 5 job? Groundbreaking analysis, who would have seen that coming.

agree Clemson was on a complete different level...........if we continue storm 18 and close and 19 is a top level class i have no doubt they will bring us back. It all depends on recruiting it always has in college just likethe nfl draft. We will be better next year alot better especially on O, the defense will be as good if not better but the DL has to be able to get pressure vs Clemson if we want that game and we have to get better stopping the run.

 

[MiamiVice7]

I remember when richt first got here he was asking himself where are the big guys? Well 2 years in he still hasn't gone out and got the big guys I will admit the oline is Definitely getting reinforcements

Living here in Georgia, one of the main gripes I heard when Richt left is that Georgia didn't have the big uglies on the line. Now I don't know enough about Georgia to know how accurate that is or how much that falls on Richt, but it is a bit troubling.

 

[thegrove]

Miami finished six straight years unranked with Shannon and Golden. Richt's first year we finished 20th. This year we finished 13th.

Golden's last recruiting class ranked 27th. Richt's interim class finished 22nd. His first full class was 12th. This class is currently 6th, a sliver behind Bama.

The trends are easy to read. We are on the path to being Miami again. And when we're Miami, there isn't a more complete team in the nation.

So far Richt is doing the same thing that he did at UGA at Miami. Everybody knows he's a very good recruiter who puts up 9-10 wins every year. Why is that even noteworthy? You are lowering the bar by comparing a clearly competent coach to the incompetent coaches that ran us into the ground for a decade.

With our recruiting geography and the dog **** quality of the division, getting Miami to a coastal title was a given for a competent staff. I have no doubt that under Richt we'll regularly be winning the division. ​

You see a trend, I see Mark Richt being the same Mark Richt he was for 15 years at UGA. Going from good to elite is going to be much harder than going from mediocre to good. Richt has a long track record of running a good program. He has no track record of getting a program to elite.

good post right here, pretty much the way i see it

This

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Canenable]

Miami finished six straight years unranked with Shannon and Golden. Richt's first year we finished 20th. This year we finished 13th.

Golden's last recruiting class ranked 27th. Richt's interim class finished 22nd. His first full class was 12th. This class is currently 6th, a sliver behind Bama.

The trends are easy to read. We are on the path to being Miami again. And when we're Miami, there isn't a more complete team in the nation.

I think the problem is everyone's seeing that Smart took the team Richt built to the national title game, without properly looking at it deeper.

UGA got to avoid Bama in the SEC title game.

UGA got lucky with injuries.

UGA had a senior laden team (31).

Richt got this team just as close as Kirby did to winning a national title in 2012/2013 where they were 5 yards from beating Bama in the SEC title game. Everyone knew that whomever won that game was going to annihilate an overrated Notre Dame team that year.

My only two gripes with Richt this year is how vanilla the offense is - knowing full well we had a poor man's Jalen Hurts behind center and what our D-line depth looks like at this present moment.

But Richt walked into a crap situation with this team and in year 2 won the division, got us to 10 wins and the Orange Bowl. Smart clearly walked into the short-term better situation.

In year 3, I wouldn't be surprised if Miami has the better year than UGA.

They have a senior laden team because when you get paid for 4 years you stay for 4 years; when you don't get paid you have to jump ship early. You think those Clemson kids and Bama kids hang out in those **** holes because they like it? You would choose Tuscaloosa over Miami?? Maybe if you took too many hits to the head...

 

[Hurricane23]

You always have to give a coach 3 years at least.

 

[NJshoreCane]

Unless the Bama team plane crashes or their bus crashes before a game, the next two titles belong pretty much to Bama. Their isn't a rooster out there that can compare to what they have already and what they will bring in. If someone, like us, is lucky with a QB who can be a wild card like Deshaun Watson, then one could compete with Bama with a puncher's chance.

I agree that Richt is righting the ship and the future is very bright, but Bama..... cot dam......

Don't know what this sudden revelation stuff about Bama is all about.
I heard some sucking up on ESPN radio as well.
They have had the top recruiting classes the last seven years.

The string of top recruiting classes will most likely end this year.
They did need OT to win, to a team that needed OT to get to the finals.
They did lose last year,and 2 years before that.

Throw a great D at them with a solid, experienced QB and let the chips fall where they may.
They'll be around, but I'm not handing them anything.

 

[tcgrad1014]

Miami finished six straight years unranked with Shannon and Golden. Richt's first year we finished 20th. This year we finished 13th.

Golden's last recruiting class ranked 27th. Richt's interim class finished 22nd. His first full class was 12th. This class is currently 6th, a sliver behind Bama.

The trends are easy to read. We are on the path to being Miami again. And when we're Miami, there isn't a more complete team in the nation.

I think the problem is everyone's seeing that Smart took the team Richt built to the national title game, without properly looking at it deeper.

UGA got to avoid Bama in the SEC title game.

UGA got lucky with injuries.

UGA had a senior laden team (31).

Richt got this team just as close as Kirby did to winning a national title in 2012/2013 where they were 5 yards from beating Bama in the SEC title game. Everyone knew that whomever won that game was going to annihilate an overrated Notre Dame team that year.

My only two gripes with Richt this year is how vanilla the offense is - knowing full well we had a poor man's Jalen Hurts behind center and what our D-line depth looks like at this present moment.

But Richt walked into a crap situation with this team and in year 2 won the division, got us to 10 wins and the Orange Bowl. Smart clearly walked into the short-term better situation.

In year 3, I wouldn't be surprised if Miami has the better year than UGA.

They have a senior laden team because when you get paid for 4 years you stay for 4 years; when you don't get paid you have to jump ship early. You think those Clemson kids and Bama kids hang out in those **** holes because they like it? You would choose Tuscaloosa over Miami?? Maybe if you took too many hits to the head...

Yeah, everybody is getting paid but our guys. It's such a bad excuse.

 

[4th-and-14]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

 

[tcgrad1014]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

Not jumping for joy. We should be winning the coastal every year. It's a dog **** division.

We should be beating the worst FSU team in years. ​

We should be beating good (but not great) ND and Va Tech teams at home. The fact that last year was the first time ever that we played in the ACCCG is an indictment of the atrocious previous staffs. The fact that we ended the season with 3 losses and fans think it was a great season is also an indictment of the atrocious previous staffs.

 

[miamicanephins]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

You mean the Davis era.

 

[Dwinstitles]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

You mean the Davis era.

Ill take that but Im not complaining yet

 

[NJshoreCane]

Miami finished six straight years unranked with Shannon and Golden. Richt's first year we finished 20th. This year we finished 13th.

Golden's last recruiting class ranked 27th. Richt's interim class finished 22nd. His first full class was 12th. This class is currently 6th, a sliver behind Bama.

The trends are easy to read. We are on the path to being Miami again. And when we're Miami, there isn't a more complete team in the nation.

So far Richt is doing the same thing that he did at UGA at Miami. Everybody knows he's a very good recruiter who puts up 9-10 wins every year. Why is that even noteworthy? You are lowering the bar by comparing a clearly competent coach to the incompetent coaches that ran us into the ground for a decade.

With our recruiting geography and the dog **** quality of the division, getting Miami to a coastal title was a given for a competent staff. I have no doubt that under Richt we'll regularly be winning the division. ​

You see a trend, I see Mark Richt being the same Mark Richt he was for 15 years at UGA. Going from good to elite is going to be much harder than going from mediocre to good. Richt has a long track record of running a good program. He has no track record of getting a program to elite.

Can't argue with that but hear me out.

Richt's recruiting at UGA very very good. He averaged a 7.8 ranked class a year over his 15 years there.
His best classes were in '06-#3, and in '09- #4 .
If we close well and stay at #6 , that will give Richt a finish that was equal to his 3rd best at UGA, in only his second recruiting cycle.

I believe he will be an elite recruiter here. Urban Myer like.
Elite recruiting and very good coaching will result in some good things here.

 

[supersaiyanshel]

Miami finished six straight years unranked with Shannon and Golden. Richt's first year we finished 20th. This year we finished 13th.

Golden's last recruiting class ranked 27th. Richt's interim class finished 22nd. His first full class was 12th. This class is currently 6th, a sliver behind Bama.

The trends are easy to read. We are on the path to being Miami again. And when we're Miami, there isn't a more complete team in the nation.

So far Richt is doing the same thing that he did at UGA at Miami. Everybody knows he's a very good recruiter who puts up 9-10 wins every year. Why is that even noteworthy? You are lowering the bar by comparing a clearly competent coach to the incompetent coaches that ran us into the ground for a decade.

With our recruiting geography and the dog **** quality of the division, getting Miami to a coastal title was a given for a competent staff. I have no doubt that under Richt we'll regularly be winning the division. ​

You see a trend, I see Mark Richt being the same Mark Richt he was for 15 years at UGA. Going from good to elite is going to be much harder than going from mediocre to good. Richt has a long track record of running a good program. He has no track record of getting a program to elite.

Can't argue with that but hear me out.

Richt's recruiting at UGA very very good. He averaged a 7.8 ranked class a year over his 15 years there.
His best classes were in '06-#3, and in '09- #4 .
If we close well and stay at #6 , that will give Richt a finish that was equal to his 3rd best at UGA, in only his second recruiting cycle.

I believe he will be an elite recruiter here. Urban Myer like.
Elite recruiting and very good coaching will result in some good things here.

If we average a Top 10 class every year, but built mostly with Florida (particularly S. Fl) talent, nobody will be touching us as long as we have a decent QB.

 

[westcoastcanes]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

We got demolished in that acc title game.

We lost to a less pro laden team in that orange bowl after talking about how fast we are, and how often we talk about florida players being the best. A team that was trashed all year because of its schedule. A team that had to travel.

The FSU team had 6-6 record.

We lost to Pitt starting a true freshman in his first game.

Have you all forgotten who you are a fan of? Is winning the coastal division really enough for fans of the Miami hurricanes, a storied program in the middle of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country, to jump for joy and call this a great season?

Look guys, what Richt did this year was get Miami to the expectation FLOOR a year faster than some/many anticipated. But lets not act like this season was "great", or put this coaches name on any plaques just yet.

 

[NJshoreCane]

Miami finished six straight years unranked with Shannon and Golden. Richt's first year we finished 20th. This year we finished 13th.

Golden's last recruiting class ranked 27th. Richt's interim class finished 22nd. His first full class was 12th. This class is currently 6th, a sliver behind Bama.

The trends are easy to read. We are on the path to being Miami again. And when we're Miami, there isn't a more complete team in the nation.

So far Richt is doing the same thing that he did at UGA at Miami. Everybody knows he's a very good recruiter who puts up 9-10 wins every year. Why is that even noteworthy? You are lowering the bar by comparing a clearly competent coach to the incompetent coaches that ran us into the ground for a decade.

With our recruiting geography and the dog **** quality of the division, getting Miami to a coastal title was a given for a competent staff. I have no doubt that under Richt we'll regularly be winning the division. ​

You see a trend, I see Mark Richt being the same Mark Richt he was for 15 years at UGA. Going from good to elite is going to be much harder than going from mediocre to good. Richt has a long track record of running a good program. He has no track record of getting a program to elite.

Can't argue with that but hear me out.

Richt's recruiting at UGA very very good. He averaged a 7.8 ranked class a year over his 15 years there.
His best classes were in '06-#3, and in '09- #4 .
If we close well and stay at #6 , that will give Richt a finish that was equal to his 3rd best at UGA, in only his second recruiting cycle.

I believe he will be an elite recruiter here. Urban Myer like.
Elite recruiting and very good coaching will result in some good things here.

If we average a Top 10 class every year, but built mostly with Florida (particularly S. Fl) talent, nobody will be touching us as long as we have a decent QB.

I think Richt will flirt with/or finish with a top 5 class every year.
Agree on the QB. It looks like we have a few, but let's see what happens when the lights come on.

 

[Meat]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

We got demolished in that acc title game.

We lost to a less pro laden team in that orange bowl after talking about how fast we are, and how often we talk about florida players being the best. A team that was trashed all year because of its schedule. A team that had to travel.

The FSU team had 6-6 record.

We lost to Pitt starting a true freshman in his first game.

Have you all forgotten who you are a fan of? Is winning the coastal division really enough for fans of the Miami hurricanes, a storied program in the middle of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country, to jump for joy and call this a great season?

Look guys, what Richt did this year was get Miami to the expectation FLOOR a year faster than some/many anticipated. But lets not act like this season was "great", or put this coaches name on any plaques just yet.

Mark Richt won the Walter Camp Coach of the Year award. Basically the heisman for coaches. And he deserved it.

 

[Pentagon Cane]

I realize running a college football fan message board makes you trade in optimism. I respect that. But if you think that Miami can compete at the level we once did, in the current climate of college football, you're deluding yourself.

People used to say we couldn't recruit elite classes anymore because "college football has changed" and "facilities." Now that we're signing elite players and the Army game looks like a Miami commercial, the story changes. Now we can't win because of student interns and deer antler powder.

Those $25k/year analysts aren't winning any games. Saban wins because he's the best coach and they sign the #1 class every year.

Alabama has always had bags. They almost got the death penalty twice, and unlike us, they earned it. We've never had that budget and still won 5.

The formula is the same. Keep the best players home, sign some out-of-state freaks and coach them. Unlike Alabama or Georgia, we don't have to hire Cuban guys or buy billboards to get it done. We just need to be the best version of Miami.

The point is the trajectory and Miami is trending up. Everybody looks to Saban at Alabama and that's a very unusual circumstance. Greatest coach since Knute Rockne. It took him four years to win the title at LSU. He was 26-12 his first three seasons, won it in his fourth and then turned around and finished 9-3 and split for the Phins. Yes, Meyer inherited a 6-6 team when he rolled into Columbus, but the two years prior to that they were 23-2 and Rose and Sugar Bowl champs. Not like Tressel left an empty cupboard. Yes, he won the national title at Florida in 2006 in his second year, but he inherited a stacked roster. Zook was an awful coach but the boy could recruit. These two are easily the best in the business this generation.

What's normal are Clemson and FSU. Swinney won the conference in his fourth year and then it took his eighth year to get to the title game and his ninth to win it all. It took Fisher four years and he was already in place like Swinney when he got the head job.

Rarely do you get transcendental players like Cam Newton. Auburn 8-5 year prior and year after and 3-9 after that with Chizik getting canned. Be nice if Perry or Williams is our Cam Newton. LoL

Just trying to put this in perspective with some realistic expectations. Some holes to fill before NSD but great class coming. The 2019 class complements the 2018 class nicely and it is off to a great start.

 

[Consigliere]

It took him four years to win the title at LSU. He was 26-12 his first three seasons, won it in his fourth and then turned around and finished 9-3 and split for the Phins.

Do you know how bad LSU was when he inherited that team? They won 7 total games and 3 conference games in the prior 2 seasons before his arrival. Do you know the last time LSU won the SEC Champ outright before Saban? 1986. He won in his second year.

That is a tremendous turnaround. That was an instant success.

Yes, Meyer inherited a 6-6 team when he rolled into Columbus, but the two years prior to that they were 23-2 and Rose and Sugar Bowl champs. Not like Tressel left an empty cupboard. Yes, he won the national title at Florida in 2006 in his second year, but he inherited a stacked roster. Zook was an awful coach but the boy could recruit. These two are easily the best in the business this generation.

Not for nothing, I don't know why anyone is comparing Richt to Meyer or Saban or Dabo or other elite coaches. Richt isn't in that category. That doesn't mean we can't have success, it just means Richt isn't in that category.

If Richt is going to do it here, he is going to have to improve some things (especially the coaching). In addition, talent isn't the reason we're losing to inferior opponents (2016 UNC, 2016 VT and 2017 Pitt).

 

[westcoastcanes]

How quickly we forget.

1) Miami has been mediocre for the last 15 years, and for about 20 of the last 25 years. And so acting like being really good is just some easy given, is really ignoring history and reality.

2) You act like getting a good coach is easy for us too, but it’s obviously not. We went 15+ years of having horrendous coaches, and if it weren’t for the gift from God of UGA firing Richt at just the right time, we’d likely be in Year 2 of the Greg Schiano era right now.

3) Sure, I’d rather have Saban, Meyer, Dabo, and maybe a few others. But that’s not reality. We are incredibly lucky, especially in the era of exploding coaching salaries that we cannot keep up with, to have a coach as accomplished as Richt. Some of the best coaching jobs in all of CF have come open in the last few years (e.g., TX, OU, UF, LSU, FSU, USC), and none of them got anyone who is even close to being as accomplished as Richt.

Criticize Richt all you want, but be careful what you wish for.

If at the beginning of the year we were told we’d finish in the top 15, play in the ACC title game (first time EVER) and the OB, beat FSU on the road and obliterate VT and ND at home, I think we all would have jumped for joy.

We got demolished in that acc title game.

We lost to a less pro laden team in that orange bowl after talking about how fast we are, and how often we talk about florida players being the best. A team that was trashed all year because of its schedule. A team that had to travel.

The FSU team had 6-6 record.

We lost to Pitt starting a true freshman in his first game.

Have you all forgotten who you are a fan of? Is winning the coastal division really enough for fans of the Miami hurricanes, a storied program in the middle of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country, to jump for joy and call this a great season?

Look guys, what Richt did this year was get Miami to the expectation FLOOR a year faster than some/many anticipated. But lets not act like this season was "great", or put this coaches name on any plaques just yet.

Mark Richt won the Walter Camp Coach of the Year award. Basically the heisman for coaches. And he deserved it.

What a great consolation prize to tout. Probably equally as impressive to a recruit as a conference championship ring, or an orange bowl trophy. Lets hope the results that follow look more like Dabo than Cutcliffe and Mangino.