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Ruiz (y Mas) vs Corben

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TheOriginalCane said:
Some simple realities.

Billy is not wrong about Crazy Joe Carollo and the Diaz de la Portilla family and the impact that the Hardman family has had. But let's be honest. Crazy Joe Carollo has been elected and re-elected by Miami and/or Dade County residents SINCE THE 1980s. At some point he needs to acknowledge that nothing he says is revelatory, nothing he says is shocking. If Miami voters want to keep voting for the same batch of corrupt politicians, then nothing that Billy Corben does will change their minds.

The same is true of the no-bid land lease, no matter how some posters try to convince you that this is some sort of "shady" deal done in secret. It was put on a referendum. The voters approved it. And the words "no bid" were included in the literal text of the referendum. It wasn't one of those underhanded "triple negative" Constitutional amendments that we routinely vote on in statewide elections, some of which are (justifiably) struck down by the Supreme Court for being intentionally misleading.

Let's be honest. Let's keep it real. For DECADES, we have watched "stadium-only" deals fail because of the fact that non-baseball facilities are only used a few days per year (unless a facility is also a concert venue). When a stadium is stand-alone, there is not enough of a concentration of economic activity to bring permanent jobs and business to the area. And in more recent decades, we have seen the MOST SUCCESSFUL stadium/arena deals are the ones that create other forms of economic activity. None of this is complicated or secret.

What Billy is doing is disingenuous. He would have you believe that the "best" way to redevelop a large parcel THAT NOBODY HAS WANTED TO TOUCH FOR DECADES is to let a wealthy person take the largest parcel, the one with the lowest rate of return (a stadium that will host 17 home games in a 34 game MLS season), and then let every other land developer in the county bid separately on the little slices of commercial land that want, thereby preventing the developer of the stadium from being able to use the profits from the economic development to subsidize the "less profitable" stadium component.

---Billy whines about Jorge Mas "paving over" Melreese. Yet his plan to let other developers "competitively bid" on developing Melreese WOULD HAVE AN IDENTICAL IMPACT. So Billy is saying it's OK to pave over Melreese, as long as Miami gets paid more for the privilege. Billy Corben can say that Jorge Mas "doesn't care about soccer" and that this "isn't about soccer", but it also quite clearly is not about Billy Corben's desire not to see Melreese "paved over", since he's OK with it if developers PAY MORE to do so.

---Billy whines about Jorge Mas "profiting" from the development of Melreese. He goes on and on about the 100 year history of Dade County and "Ponzi schemes" and bad infrastructure. Yet the core of his argument is that developers are "lined up" to proffer money for Melreese. So this really isn't about Billy Corben "fighting the good fight" against all the corrupt developers in Dade (and we all know that most real estate developers in Dade are corrupt and shady), this is about Billy being mad at JORGE MAS for doing what Billy apparently is OK with OTHER Dade developers for doing.

---Billy whines about Dade County politics, drawing massive conclusions about the eventual political success (or failure) of politicians who either supported or opposed the Marlins Stadium, as if this simultaneously proves and justifies all of his ranting, while he indirectly threatens the "swing vote" commissioner by including ONLY his phone number in his hillllarious video. But, again, the reality is that the Carollos and Diaz de la Portillas and Hardman-adjacents have been elected and re-elected for decades. Crazy Joe Carollo double-crossed Maurice Ferre IN THE 1980s. But somehow Billy can't seem to analyze these things properly. The Marlins deal WAS AN ESPECIALLY DISHONEST BOONDOGGLE for the simple reason that the Dade County voters HAD ALREADY VOTED TO USE FUNDS TO RENOVATE THE ORANGE BOWL FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI AND OTHER EVENTS. So what David Samson did was particularly vile and offensive BECAUSE there was already an approved use for the Orange Bowl property. Thus, David Samson STOLE the property from UM and the community, which is why some voters punished the politicians involved. There is no comparison for Melreese, however. Melreese has not been promised, say, to the Panthers for them to relocate to Miami. And the weak "but there's golfers who use the golf course" flies in the face of EVERY OTHER GOLF COURSE in South Florida.

---Speaking of David Samson, Billy is soooo disingenuous. I could even tolerate Billy getting into bed with David Samson if Samson exhibited even a shred of remorse and self-awareness for what he did and the impact that it had. Instead, he gets on these TV and radio shows and continues to gloat for the way that he used and abused the SoFla community and the politicians whom he corrupted. Good lord, Hendry Hill showed more remorse for his life of organized crime than David Samson expresses for his time destroying the Montreal Expos, the University of Miami football stadium, and the South Florida taxpayers. This is a particularly egregious mistake for Billy to make. He will bring up every bad thing that a POLITICIAN does ("hey, remember that time that Crazy Joe Carollo hit his wife with a terra cotta vase?"), he will bring up every bad thing about Jorge Mas and David Beckham ("hey, let me tell you about the complex and lengthy process by which Beckham got his MLS franchise"), but at the end of the day, HE IS USING AN UNREPENTANT SCUMBAG TO MAKE HIS CASE.

---At the end of this all, Billy is not even arguing that Miami taxpayers will have to EXPEND money on this project (and that, of course, assumes that all cost-overruns will be borne by Inter Miami, and not the taxpayers). Sure, maybe roads will be widened at taxpayer expense, but if anyone on the planet thinks the roads around the airport are perfect as is, and ONLY need to be widened for a 17-game soccer schedule, that person needs his/her head examined. Really, what Billy is arguing is that he wants Miami (and "Miami taxpayers") to make a huge profit on land that Miami has owned for over 100 years, and has never properly maintained. Furthermore, nobody else WANTED that land for over 100 years, and not a single developer has lined up to "develop" Melreese for over 100 years. And, sure, while I can acknowledge the mathematical point at which Miami land becomes SOOOOO expensive...AND scarce...that Melreese FINALLY becomes desirable, I am also not so deranged to make the false claim that Miami taxpayers will be "ripped off" because they finally off-loaded a white elephant park JUST AT THE MOMENT that every corrupt real estate developer in South Florida finally wanted to pay to pave over Melreese.

Billy is right about certain factual matters, and wrong about others. But the two things that undermine Billy's entire argument are (a) acting as if "Jorge Mas as a real estate developer" is BAD, while accepting that the alternative is to allow every other "highest-bidder" corrupt real estate developer in Miami to pave over Melreese, and (b) getting into bed with an unrepentant scumbage con man who stole the Orange Bowl from Miami and the University of Miami while he makes jokes about all of the Miami politicians that he corrupted to approve Marlins Stadium.

I have liked and respected Billy in the past, but those two miscalculations are pretty much unforgivable in this argument. Much though I might possibly be convinced by the "park land belongs to the people and should remain park land" crowd, Billy's dishonesty and hypocrisy in this matter is just too much.

The Miami City Commission should do what the voters have ALREADY approved (99-year land lease) and then negotiate for the best possible deal on all of the rent and construction clauses (WITH JORGE MAS).

Fvck Billy Corben.

But more than anything in life...FVCK DAVID SAMSON. That guy regrets NOTHING. And he'll go on TV and radio to brag about it and will continue to act as if he is just sooooo mucy smarter than the rest of us. He will luxuriate in his old stories about how he corrupted every politician in Miami. He will laugh his self-satisfied laugh that came at our expense. FVCK DAVID SAMSON.
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This. I will also emphasize a location in overtown is idiotic. City should get as much as possible for the land but otherwise I see no issue and def no scandal of any kind, let alone anything that surpasses the Marlinā€™s deal as Corbin suggested many times in that local news interview.
 
305_separatist said:
This. I will also emphasize a location in overtown is idiotic. City should get as much as possible for the land but otherwise I see no issue and def no scandal of any kind, let alone anything that surpasses the Marlinā€™s deal as Corbin suggested many times in that local news interview.
Click to expand...


Yes. I should go back and edit my post, but it's long as-is.

Billy Corben is "not OK" with Jorge Mas "paving over" a golf course...but he's OK with tearing down several blocks of Overtown, which could otherwise support affordable housing, just to build a soccer-only facility that will be used 17 times a year for 3 hours per game.

1650896438097.png
 
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rsa coral gables said:
the motivation behind most liberals is envy. that's billy. in addition, he mocks people when they are down or commit mistakes. he relishes in their errors.

he's a b@tch of the work sort.

here's the counter to billy's propaganda.

Click to expand...



Exactly.

No matter how anyone feels IN GENERAL about the use of public land for stadium projects, there are fundamental differences between Melreese and, say, Tropical Park.

Melreese is a (low-rent) "country club" that charges annual fees to "taxpayers" to use the "public" golf course. Melreese is nowhere close to being a huge public park enjoyed by thousands of taxpayers on a daily basis in the way that Tropical is. Melreese is RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET from Miami International Airport, so there are significant constraints on what it could EVER be used for, not to mention that it is nowhere close to being bucolic "park land" that everyone wants to use, as Billy and David would have us believe.

I used to go to Melreese when I was at UM. It is always sad to see any public-use facility change or disappear. But it has also been ignored, mismanaged, and allowed to deteriorate for decades. Just as David Samson makes a biiiiiiig deal about nobody wanting to buy the Marlins in 2002 (as if his stepfather performed some charitable act on behalf of Miami by purchasing the Marlins), so too has no developer even wanted to touch Melreese (and its ****nic) for decades.

But, sure, now that Dade real estate is sooo expensive and scarce, now Billy and David are OK with paving over a public golf course, if only the developers will pay a high enough dollar amount.

I call bullsh!te on Billy and David's bullsh!te.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Some simple realities.

Billy is not wrong about Crazy Joe Carollo and the Diaz de la Portilla family and the impact that the Hardman family has had. But let's be honest. Crazy Joe Carollo has been elected and re-elected by Miami and/or Dade County residents SINCE THE 1980s. At some point he needs to acknowledge that nothing he says is revelatory, nothing he says is shocking. If Miami voters want to keep voting for the same batch of corrupt politicians, then nothing that Billy Corben does will change their minds.

The same is true of the no-bid land lease, no matter how some posters try to convince you that this is some sort of "shady" deal done in secret. It was put on a referendum. The voters approved it. And the words "no bid" were included in the literal text of the referendum. It wasn't one of those underhanded "triple negative" Constitutional amendments that we routinely vote on in statewide elections, some of which are (justifiably) struck down by the Supreme Court for being intentionally misleading.

Let's be honest. Let's keep it real. For DECADES, we have watched "stadium-only" deals fail because of the fact that non-baseball facilities are only used a few days per year (unless a facility is also a concert venue). When a stadium is stand-alone, there is not enough of a concentration of economic activity to bring permanent jobs and business to the area. And in more recent decades, we have seen the MOST SUCCESSFUL stadium/arena deals are the ones that create other forms of economic activity. None of this is complicated or secret.

What Billy is doing is disingenuous. He would have you believe that the "best" way to redevelop a large parcel THAT NOBODY HAS WANTED TO TOUCH FOR DECADES is to let a wealthy person take the largest parcel, the one with the lowest rate of return (a stadium that will host 17 home games in a 34 game MLS season), and then let every other land developer in the county bid separately on the little slices of commercial land that want, thereby preventing the developer of the stadium from being able to use the profits from the economic development to subsidize the "less profitable" stadium component.

---Billy whines about Jorge Mas "paving over" Melreese. Yet his plan to let other developers "competitively bid" on developing Melreese WOULD HAVE AN IDENTICAL IMPACT. So Billy is saying it's OK to pave over Melreese, as long as Miami gets paid more for the privilege. Billy Corben can say that Jorge Mas "doesn't care about soccer" and that this "isn't about soccer", but it also quite clearly is not about Billy Corben's desire not to see Melreese "paved over", since he's OK with it if developers PAY MORE to do so.

---Billy whines about Jorge Mas "profiting" from the development of Melreese. He goes on and on about the 100 year history of Dade County and "Ponzi schemes" and bad infrastructure. Yet the core of his argument is that developers are "lined up" to proffer money for Melreese. So this really isn't about Billy Corben "fighting the good fight" against all the corrupt developers in Dade (and we all know that most real estate developers in Dade are corrupt and shady), this is about Billy being mad at JORGE MAS for doing what Billy apparently is OK with OTHER Dade developers for doing.

---Billy whines about Dade County politics, drawing massive conclusions about the eventual political success (or failure) of politicians who either supported or opposed the Marlins Stadium, as if this simultaneously proves and justifies all of his ranting, while he indirectly threatens the "swing vote" commissioner by including ONLY his phone number in his hillllarious video. But, again, the reality is that the Carollos and Diaz de la Portillas and Hardman-adjacents have been elected and re-elected for decades. Crazy Joe Carollo double-crossed Maurice Ferre IN THE 1980s. But somehow Billy can't seem to analyze these things properly. The Marlins deal WAS AN ESPECIALLY DISHONEST BOONDOGGLE for the simple reason that the Dade County voters HAD ALREADY VOTED TO USE FUNDS TO RENOVATE THE ORANGE BOWL FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI AND OTHER EVENTS. So what David Samson did was particularly vile and offensive BECAUSE there was already an approved use for the Orange Bowl property. Thus, David Samson STOLE the property from UM and the community, which is why some voters punished the politicians involved. There is no comparison for Melreese, however. Melreese has not been promised, say, to the Panthers for them to relocate to Miami. And the weak "but there's golfers who use the golf course" flies in the face of EVERY OTHER GOLF COURSE in South Florida.

---Speaking of David Samson, Billy is soooo disingenuous. I could even tolerate Billy getting into bed with David Samson if Samson exhibited even a shred of remorse and self-awareness for what he did and the impact that it had. Instead, he gets on these TV and radio shows and continues to gloat for the way that he used and abused the SoFla community and the politicians whom he corrupted. Good lord, Hendry Hill showed more remorse for his life of organized crime than David Samson expresses for his time destroying the Montreal Expos, the University of Miami football stadium, and the South Florida taxpayers. This is a particularly egregious mistake for Billy to make. He will bring up every bad thing that a POLITICIAN does ("hey, remember that time that Crazy Joe Carollo hit his wife with a terra cotta vase?"), he will bring up every bad thing about Jorge Mas and David Beckham ("hey, let me tell you about the complex and lengthy process by which Beckham got his MLS franchise"), but at the end of the day, HE IS USING AN UNREPENTANT SCUMBAG TO MAKE HIS CASE.

---At the end of this all, Billy is not even arguing that Miami taxpayers will have to EXPEND money on this project (and that, of course, assumes that all cost-overruns will be borne by Inter Miami, and not the taxpayers). Sure, maybe roads will be widened at taxpayer expense, but if anyone on the planet thinks the roads around the airport are perfect as is, and ONLY need to be widened for a 17-game soccer schedule, that person needs his/her head examined. Really, what Billy is arguing is that he wants Miami (and "Miami taxpayers") to make a huge profit on land that Miami has owned for over 100 years, and has never properly maintained. Furthermore, nobody else WANTED that land for over 100 years, and not a single developer has lined up to "develop" Melreese for over 100 years. And, sure, while I can acknowledge the mathematical point at which Miami land becomes SOOOOO expensive...AND scarce...that Melreese FINALLY becomes desirable, I am also not so deranged to make the false claim that Miami taxpayers will be "ripped off" because they finally off-loaded a white elephant park JUST AT THE MOMENT that every corrupt real estate developer in South Florida finally wanted to pay to pave over Melreese.

Billy is right about certain factual matters, and wrong about others. But the two things that undermine Billy's entire argument are (a) acting as if "Jorge Mas as a real estate developer" is BAD, while accepting that the alternative is to allow every other "highest-bidder" corrupt real estate developer in Miami to pave over Melreese, and (b) getting into bed with an unrepentant scumbage con man who stole the Orange Bowl from Miami and the University of Miami while he makes jokes about all of the Miami politicians that he corrupted to approve Marlins Stadium.

I have liked and respected Billy in the past, but those two miscalculations are pretty much unforgivable in this argument. Much though I might possibly be convinced by the "park land belongs to the people and should remain park land" crowd, Billy's dishonesty and hypocrisy in this matter is just too much.

The Miami City Commission should do what the voters have ALREADY approved (99-year land lease) and then negotiate for the best possible deal on all of the rent and construction clauses (WITH JORGE MAS).

Fvck Billy Corben.

But more than anything in life...FVCK DAVID SAMSON. That guy regrets NOTHING. And he'll go on TV and radio to brag about it and will continue to act as if he is just sooooo mucy smarter than the rest of us. He will luxuriate in his old stories about how he corrupted every politician in Miami. He will laugh his self-satisfied laugh that came at our expense. FVCK DAVID SAMSON.
Click to expand...
You simply won't find a more comprehensive, coherent and accurate assessment of this topic beyond this post. Outstanding.
 
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Tad Footeball said:
I'd respectfully disagree. Corben only knows (or only chooses) one way to make his supposed cases and it almost exclusively involves public shtick about EVERYONE is a con man and a criminal that he opposes. That's convenient for his movies but if you pay attention to what he actually says on many fronts it's almost exclusively based in that shtick and not actual knowledge.

Take his characterizations of Ruiz alone and what he was spewing about the guy on a weekly basis on Lebatard's platform. None of it was based in actual info but was just him putting forth his idea of a stereotypical Miami hustler that is "fake" rich or temporarily rich due to dirty money. I'm not an attorney but it absolutely seemed to verge on slander and even defamation and I think this was evidenced by how uncomfortable Mike Ryan was seemingly made by it.

I'm not current on what he's obviously insinuating about Mas now but I'd assume it's along those same lines.

It's almost like he has an issue with successful Hispanics but I'd personally never actually say that because I don't peddle in self-promoting shtick.
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I'm not an attorney either, but i've paid enough of them to know there needs to be damages for slander and defamation claim. Then i believe you'd have to connect the defamatory & slanderous statements to said damages. Did I do that right fellas? It seems like a tough thing to prove even when there's legitimate basis for the claim...
 
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Pearson704 said:
I'm not an attorney either, but i've paid enough of them to know there needs to be damages for slander and defamation. Then i believe you'd have to connect the defamatory & slanderous statements to said damages; did I do that right fellas? It seems like a tough thing to prove even when there's legitimate basis for the claim...
Click to expand...


Very nice job.

I would simply add (a) Ruiz could claim that such slanderous charges are impairing his SPAC and (b) the actual prospect of litigation might cause Billy to be more cautious when shooting off his mouth.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Exactly.

No matter how anyone feels IN GENERAL about the use of public land for stadium projects, there are fundamental differences between Melreese and, say, Tropical Park.

Melreese is a (low-rent) "country club" that charges annual fees to "taxpayers" to use the "public" golf course. Melreese is nowhere close to being a huge public park enjoyed by thousands of taxpayers on a daily basis in the way that Tropical is. Melreese is RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET from Miami International Airport, so there are significant constraints on what it could EVER be used for, not to mention that it is nowhere close to being bucolic "park land" that everyone wants to use, as Billy and David would have us believe.

I used to go to Melreese when I was at UM. It is always sad to see any public-use facility change or disappear. But it has also been ignored, mismanaged, and allowed to deteriorate for decades. Just as David Samson makes a biiiiiiig deal about nobody wanting to buy the Marlins in 2002 (as if his stepfather performed some charitable act on behalf of Miami by purchasing the Marlins), so too has no developer even wanted to touch Melreese (and its ****nic) for decades.

But, sure, now that Dade real estate is sooo expensive and scarce, now Billy and David are OK with paving over a public golf course, if only the developers will pay a high enough dollar amount.

I call bullsh!te on Billy and David's bullsh!te.
Click to expand...
I was gonna post but no need.

Billy never gets around to actually telling you how it's a bad deal.

He throws out jargon and legalese ("no-bid"), etc., to plant a negative seed.

Well, how are the taxpayers getting fleeced? A golf course is getting replaced? How is this akin to the Marlins deal, at all? What argument is he even making?

The taxpayers aren't getting back anything. The purchase price goes into government coffers to pay government functionaries. It doesn't go back to Hilario Lopez in Doral in the form of a $1000 check.

Melreese is an afterthought in Miami. Taxpayers are already getting fleeced by having to support **** they'll never use.

I have been, and will remain a vehement opponent of taxpayer money going to private sports teams (most people aren't sports fans). But that isn't what Billy is describing, so he never finished his argument.

Billy's argument amounts to little more than "it's Miami, so it must be corrupt."
 
Melreese
supersaiyanshel said:
May not be popular, but everything Corben has been saying about Mas and the stadium recently has been spot on.
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Billy wasn't spot on. Matter of fact, he's really off on a lot of what he's saying.

San Amaro Dr said:
Melreese isnā€™t some random course and itā€™s also home to the first tee Miami.
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Melreese does very little for the city of Miami aside from the kid's program you mentionad. That land sits in a prime location and could be put to much better use. Matter of fact, if the right deal is made it could generate millions of dollars for the city. The way it sits now it's only used by a select few. The voters of the city have spoken as well. Let's get this deal done. City should maximize what it can from the deal, but no reason to drag this thing out another year or two. First Tee can move their program to any of the multiple golf courses that sit within a 10-15 minute drive from their current location. There's no reason to hold this deal hostage over a children's program that not many people had ever heard of until the Inter Miami deal came along.
 
San Amaro Dr said:
Melreese isnā€™t some random course and itā€™s also home to the first tee Miami.
Click to expand...


Home to the First Tee Miami? Really? Yeah, that program is held at FOUR different golf courses in Dade, of which Melreese is but one.

I'm sure we could find another golf course in Dade. There are PLENTY of golf courses in Dade. There's no need to argue to keep a "public country club" open that loses millions of taxpayer dollars, simply because a youth program uses the course as one of its four locations.

People need to stop it with the nonsense. Costa Del Sol is what, six miles from Melreese? Pick a new location in north Dade. Let's just be honest.



First Tee Miami​

Open chapter link in a new window:www.thefirstteemiami.org

International Links Miami Melreese Golf Club
1802 Northwest 37th Ave Miami FL 33125

Costa Del Sol
100 Costa Del Sol Blvd Miami FL 33178

Redlands Golf Club
24451 SW 177 Ave Homestead FL 33031

Killian Greens Golf Course
9980 SW 104 ST miami fl 33176
 
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