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OT: Was Kobe the most competitive player in league history?

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craval85 said:
Bro..Bird was great, but trying to compare him as a defender to either MJ or Kobe is beyond ridiculous. There really no comparison. MJ & Kobe are two of the greatest perimeter defenders in the history of the game. Kobe routinely all the way up to his retirement took on the toughest defensive assignment night in & night out by guarding the opposing teams best player. Bird or Magic very seldomly did that. Lebron definitely doesn't do that.
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You are nuts. This whole "this guy took on the opposing team's best player" myth is just ridiculous. When the Lakers played the Spurs, Kobe wasn't guarding David Robinson or Tim Duncan. Kobe guarded the best guard on the other team, big deal. The stats, both team and individual, as well as the eye test, definitely put Bird and Magic above Kobe (and nowhere do I even mention LeBron).

This is the difference between how you and I make our arguments. I acknowledge that Kobe was very good, but below Bird, Magic, and Jordan. On the other hand, you claim "really no comparison". That is just crazy.

And look at the career stats:

Larry Bird
24.3 PPG
10 Rebounds per game
6.3 Assists per game
1.7 Steals per game

Kobe Bryant
25 PPG
5.2 Rebounds per game
4.7 Assists per game
1.4 Steals per game

So with the exception of Kobe scoring 0.7 more points per game (which is offset by Bird having 1.6 more assists per game, resulting in 3 more points per game by his teammates), Bird was a more prolific rebounder, assists man, and defender, on a per-game basis, with far inferior athletic skills.

And think about this. Bird, Magic, and Jordan all came from families that were not known for their athletic abilities, and with the exception of Jordan's sons, the rest of their families haven't really accomplished much. Kobe's father was a pro basketball player, and by all accounts, Kobe's oldest daughter was a **** good basketball player too.

So, yes, I think that Bird, Magic, and Jordan accomplished more through their "competitiveness" than Kobe did.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
You are nuts. This whole "this guy took on the opposing team's best player" myth is just ridiculous. When the Lakers played the Spurs, Kobe wasn't guarding David Robinson or Tim Duncan. Kobe guarded the best guard on the other team, big deal. The stats, both team and individual, as well as the eye test, definitely put Bird and Magic above Kobe (and nowhere do I even mention LeBron).

This is the difference between how you and I make our arguments. I acknowledge that Kobe was very good, but below Bird, Magic, and Jordan. On the other hand, you claim "really no comparison". That is just crazy.

And look at the career stats:

Larry Bird
24.3 PPG
10 Rebounds per game
6.3 Assists per game
1.7 Steals per game

Kobe Bryant
25 PPG
5.2 Rebounds per game
4.7 Assists per game
1.4 Steals per game

So with the exception of Kobe scoring 0.7 more points per game (which is offset by Bird having 1.6 more assists per game, resulting in 3 more points per game by his teammates), Bird was a more prolific rebounder, assists man, and defender, on a per-game basis, with far inferior athletic skills.

And think about this. Bird, Magic, and Jordan all came from families that were not known for their athletic abilities, and with the exception of Jordan's sons, the rest of their families haven't really accomplished much. Kobe's father was a pro basketball player, and by all accounts, Kobe's oldest daughter was a **** good basketball player too.

So, yes, I think that Bird, Magic, and Jordan accomplished more through their "competitiveness" than Kobe did.
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Again..you're still not understanding. This entire discussion is only pertaining to Defense. Not Offense or Competitiveness. So why are you comparing their career stats?? It doesn't make sense. Kobe made the ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM 12 TIMES!!! Larry made it 3 times, but yet you still think Larry is a better defender than Kobe? How??!!! Obviously Kobe didn't guard Duncan or Robinson when they played the Spurs, because he's a Guard. I don't understand why thats even worth mentioning, when I specifically said that he's one of the best PERIMETER DEFENDERS of all time. Meaning when the opposing team's best offensive player was a perimeter player, he accepts & conquers that challenge more than other players. I brought up Lebron, because he's the greatest SF of all time, and he's not even a better defender than Kobe.
 
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twes.305 said:
LOWRY, KYLE LOWRY!!!!! 😂😂😂, cant believe you just said this.
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You mean a Hall of Fame championship PG who consistently leads the league in charges taken, defends 1-4 in switching schemes and does all the little things on both ends (evidenced by his always high RPM rank) isn't an elite competitor?

It's amazing how many NBA "fans" are still stuck in the 1990s model of evaluating players. You guys love your counting stats. And of course it's the same dudes who tout tackle statistics to judge and compare defensive players...
 
HighSeas said:
You mean a Hall of Fame championship PG who consistently leads the league in charges taken, defends 1-4 in switching schemes and does all the little things on both ends (evidenced by his always high RPM rank) isn't an elite competitor?

It's amazing how many NBA "fans" are still stuck in the 1990s model of evaluating players. You guys love your counting stats. And of course it's the same dudes who tout tackle statistics to judge and compare defensive players...
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Lowry is ******, and not HOF, that's your opinion. Did he finally step up with Kawhi....yes, but before that you could not rely on him at all late in the games and he will go back to that with the departure of Kawhi.
 
craval85 said:
Kobe made the all defensive team 12 times, so clearly he definitely played D. Conversely Westbrook in yr 11 has yet to be named to that team even a single time.
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3 dudes who lack reading comprehension. Where did I say Westbrook is on Kobe's level in any way? The point is they craft images of themselves as tough guy warriors and fierce competitors when they take off as many plays on D as anyone. And miss me with the all defense stuff cause any legit NBA analyst knows that Kobe had no business getting most of those nods. Those are media awards and the media had no clue how to evaluate defenders until recently.
 
twes.305 said:
Lowry is ******, and not HOF, that's your opinion. Did he finally step up with Kawhi....yes, but before that you could not rely on him at all late in the games and he will go back to that with the departure of Kawhi.
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Completely wrong. Game 7 against the Heat. Game 6 against GSW. Game 1 against Milwaukee conference finals. Lowry was awesome in those games. And it was Van Vleet who closed the championship late game 6 not Kawhi.

Lowry is not the crunch time guy Siakam is.
 
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HighSeas said:
You mean a Hall of Fame championship PG who consistently leads the league in charges taken, defends 1-4 in switching schemes and does all the little things on both ends (evidenced by his always high RPM rank) isn't an elite competitor?

It's amazing how many NBA "fans" are still stuck in the 1990s model of evaluating players. You guys love your counting stats. And of course it's the same dudes who tout tackle statistics to judge and compare defensive players...
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It'
HighSeas said:
Completely wrong. Game 7 against the Heat. Game 6 against GSW. Game 1 against Milwaukee conference finals. Lowry was awesome in those games. And it was Van Vleet who closed the championship late game 6 not Kawhi.

Lowry is not the crunch time guy Siakam is.
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Never said Kawhi closed the game, I said you could not rely on Lowry for **** especially late in the game until Kawhi got there.... now Kawhi is gonna and he will go back to the same scoring 15 points in the first 2 quarters then dissapeared for the rest of the game.
 
twes.305 said:
It'

Never said Kawhi closed the game, I said you could not rely on Lowry for **** especially late in the game until Kawhi got there.... now Kawhi is gonna and he will go back to the same scoring 15 points in the first 2 quarters then dissapeared for the rest of the game.
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Well ****** Lowry is 7th in wins added for the last decade despite his scoring limitations. There's more to basketball than PPG.
 
HighSeas said:
The most competitive players are the ones who play hard on both ends every night.

Not many qualify right now. Adebayo, Gobert, Lowry, CP3, etc.

Kobe did not compete on D consistently enough to the level of being that kind of competitor. He crafted an image/character that created the perception of it. Westbrook has done the same. Kobe also had playoff games where he was doggin it or refused to score or pass out of spite.

His death was tragic on many levels but let's not whitewash his career.
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LOWRYYYY?? Dude dont even be in shape half of the time...n i been watching him since Nova. Agree with everything else u said though lol
 
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HighSeas said:
3 dudes who lack reading comprehension. Where did I say Westbrook is on Kobe's level in any way? The point is they craft images of themselves as tough guy warriors and fierce competitors when they take off as many plays on D as anyone. And miss me with the all defense stuff cause any legit NBA analyst knows that Kobe had no business getting most of those nods. Those are media awards and the media had no clue how to evaluate defenders until recently.
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My dude, me and you are usually in agreement, but in this instance what you're saying is off the wall. First you tried to say that Kobe wasn't a great competitor because he didn't compete on D nearly enough. Then you said that the All-Defensive team award was a media award. You're horrendously wrong on both accounts.

NBA All-Defensive Team - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"Prior to the 2013–14 NBA season, voting was performed by the NBA head coaches, who were restricted from voting for players on their own team."
 
NateDogg said:
Andrew Toney


In all seriousness, he is up there. No doubt. But I can't put him ahead of MJ or Bird.
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I was at the games in Boston Garden in 82 Toney was unstoppable. That prick screwed us, he took over and the Celtics weren't ready for him. Lol He played with real injuries you could see him limping. (Bone spurs)

So many great players with heart. Magic, Bird, Barkley were beasts too, Isiah Thomas, one of my favorites Dennis Rodman the rebounding machine, I could fill this entire page. The 80's were filled with players with heart. They actually fought and bled for wins. The Detroit team in the 88&89 I believe was filled with guys with heart, they beat up MJ for two years, for 4 years before that the Celtics did. One of the worst centers to play the game had a huge heart beat on Bird every time they played. lol The 80's was a wonderful time for Basketball. I'd say many players had the same heart but different talent levels.
 
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Cuban-Cane said:
Hard to think of a better one. He was someone limited athletically but just found ways through working on different areas of his game.
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No. MJ was. That’s where Kobe developed it from. How was he limited athletically when he won the dunk contest? Did u watch his highlights? There’s no way u can say he was limited athletically. But everyone has their own opinion
 
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