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OT: Was Kobe the most competitive player in league history?

TheOriginalCane said:
Kobe Bryant averaged 1.4 steals per game.

Larry Bird averaged 1.7 steals per game, a 20% higher rate. Playing in 350 fewer games Bird is fewer than 400 steals behind Kobe.

Magic Johnson averaged 1.9 steals per game.

Michael Jordan averaged 2.3 steals per game.

Perspective.
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Bird is 36th All-time in steals & Kobe is 16th.

Kobe was 9x NBA All-Defensive first team, Bird was 3x All-Defensive second team, never made First team.

Kobe was a better Defender than Bird.
 
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Liberty City El said:
I don't disagree that Jordan is better, I'm just saying yall in here talking like Kobe was Bonzi Wells or some shìt.

The way people try to talk down on him is crazy to me, especially when ask any player that had to deal with him in the prime of his career & they all routinely resoundingly say he was hands down the best player in the league in his era.

No one is arguing that he was better than MJ, but mf'ers in here talking about Tim Duncan & Larry Bird, like seriously lol **** even MJ himself says the only one that could beat him was Kobe.
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Ya I got Bird ahead of Kobe no doubt...Bird's top 5 imo...Complete animal. I'd go Bryant over Duncan, and I think Duncan slides in the top 15

LOL my man Bonzi Wells.

I think Wade is closer to Bryant than most people give him credit for. As far as pure 2 guards go, obviously I'd go Bryant #2 to Jordan.
 
Liberty City El said:
Bird is 36th All-time in steals & Kobe is 16th.

Kobe was 9x NBA All-Defensive first team, Bird was 3x All-Defensive second team, never made First team.

Kobe was a better Defender than Bird.
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Just a basketball question while were at it.

Do you feel the Joradn, Magic, Bird era was more of a dominant Defensive era.

It seems now the NBA is all about offense with very little D. Am I wrong to think this?
 
skeeter said:
Ya I got Bird ahead of Kobe no doubt...Bird's top 5 imo...Complete animal. I'd go Bryant over Duncan, and I think Duncan slides in the top 15

LOL my man Bonzi Wells.

I think Wade is closer to Bryant than most people give him credit for. As far as pure 2 guards go, obviously I'd go Bryant #2 to Jordan.
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What WADE did in the finals against Dallas was a Jordan/Kobe type of series. He was unconscious...
 
skeeter said:
I got Kobe somewhere 9-12 on my list...

He played stylistically like Jordan, just missed so many more shots than Jordan and the stats bear that out.

I wouldn't argue with top 8...I would argue vehemently with all this top 5 nonsense.
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Kobe missed more shots than anyone in the history of the NBA.
 
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canecrazy23 said:
Just a basketball question while were at it.

Do you feel the Joradn, Magic, Bird era was more of a dominant Defensive era.

It seems now the NBA is all about offense with very little D. Am I wrong to think this?
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The 90's til 2006-7 was the most dominant Defensive era in Basketball imo.

The 80's was about high scoring & running the floor.

The new era is a finesse style Euro game, that's all about shooting 3's & advanced analytics, Defense has been legislated out of the game.
 
Liberty City El said:
Bird is 36th All-time in steals & Kobe is 16th.

Kobe was 9x NBA All-Defensive first team, Bird was 3x All-Defensive second team, never made First team.

Kobe was a better Defender than Bird.
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That last sentence is just a load of horsesh!te.

Kobe played more games. Big f-ing deal.

Bird had more steals per game. Period. You can't even argue that fact, yet you're trying to give me the rankings by total steals.

Kobe got a bunch of "defensive" awards in the 2000s when the NBA wasn't even playing defense. Anyone who actually knows anything about the NBA will tell you that they actually played defense in the 1980s and 1990s.

Seriously, ask any old NBA player to rank defenders, put Jordan, Bird, and Kobe in the mix, and every single one will rank Kobe third in that group. They played in different eras, but anyone will tell you that Jordan and Bird played better defense than Kobe.
 
Bryant is probably the closest thing to Jordan my generation will witness. Lebron is Lebron and he's great, but he's not of the Michael Jordan mold like Kobe was.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Kobe Bryant averaged 1.4 steals per game.

Larry Bird averaged 1.7 steals per game, a 20% higher rate. Playing in 350 fewer games Bird is fewer than 400 steals behind Kobe.

Magic Johnson averaged 1.9 steals per game.

Michael Jordan averaged 2.3 steals per game.

Perspective.
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By advanced metrics, Bird led the league in Defensive Win Shares four times. Zero for Kobe.

Bird led the league in plus/minus 5 times. Zero for Kobe.

If I needed a shot to win the game, I take Kobe. But Bird went full tilt on both ends of the court all game every game.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
That last sentence is just a load of horsesh!te.

Kobe played more games. Big f-ing deal.

Bird had more steals per game. Period. You can't even argue that fact, yet you're trying to give me the rankings by total steals.

Kobe got a bunch of "defensive" awards in the 2000s when the NBA wasn't even playing defense. Anyone who actually knows anything about the NBA will tell you that they actually played defense in the 1980s and 1990s.

Seriously, ask any old NBA player to rank defenders, put Jordan, Bird, and Kobe in the mix, and every single one will rank Kobe third in that group. They played in different eras, but anyone will tell you that Jordan and Bird played better defense than Kobe.
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No one is arguing that Kobe was a better defender than Jordan...

But there's a mountain hill of evidence that Kobe was a better defender than Bird.

Bird in his prime was never voted to the NBA All-Defensive first team? If he was this great defender, then why was he never voted mong his peers in that era on the First team?
 
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Liberty City El said:
The 90's til 2006-7 was the most dominant Defensive era in Basketball imo.

The 80's was about high scoring & running the floor.

The new era is a finesse style Euro game, that's all about shooting 3's & advanced analytics, Defense has been legislated out of the game.
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Come on. For the entire 1980s, the NBA scoring average was 107.2 per game. For the entire 1990s, it was 106.4 per game. That's a differential of 0.8 FOR AN ENTIRE DECADE.

And for the record, the entire NBA from 1980 until 2010 only had seven seasons where the scoring exceeded 108 points per game (and never hit 109 or 110 per game). The last FOUR seasons (including the current season) have exceeded 108 points per game, with last season going over 110 points per game and this current season is flirting with 110 points per game.

Having said that, the fact remains, on an individual per-game basis, Kobe was not nearly the same defender as Bird, Magic, or Jordan.
 
Wait, LCE, I think some of us who mentioned Bird at least even with Kobe were referencing competitiveness - not ability or defensive prowess. Bird did a lot. And, he did it with a fraction of athletic ability because he was a ******* crazy competitor. Kobe was also a crazed competitor, so we're splitting hairs.

I think both are a shade under what we saw from Michael Jordan, who I watched play almost every minute as if his family were held hostage. Even when he played like ****.
 
Liberty City El said:
No one is arguing that Kobe was a better defender than Jordan...

But there's a mountain hill of evidence that Kobe was a better defender than Bird.

Bird in his prime was never voted to the NBA All-Defensive first team? If he was this great defender, then why was he never voted mong his peers in that era on the First team?
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You do realize that there were other VERY GOOD defensive players in the 1980s and 1990s, right? For instance, Bobby Jones got first team All Defensive at the Power Forward spot for 8 consecutive years, and he is an NBA Hall of Famer. Plus, it's an award that is voted on. As was pointed out by someone else, if you use advanced metrics, it's not even close.

Go by the stats. Go by the results. But, yeah, if you want some awards voted on by sportswriters, some popularity awards, Kobe did well. If Kobe worked as hard at the defensive end as he did at the offensive end, he was CAPABLE of being as good a defender as Bird, Magic, and Jordan.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Come on. For the entire 1980s, the NBA scoring average was 107.2 per game. For the entire 1990s, it was 106.4 per game. That's a differential of 0.8 FOR AN ENTIRE DECADE.

And for the record, the entire NBA from 1980 until 2010 only had seven seasons where the scoring exceeded 108 points per game (and never hit 109 or 110 per game). The last FOUR seasons (including the current season) have exceeded 108 points per game, with last season going over 110 points per game and this current season is flirting with 110 points per game.

Having said that, the fact remains, on an individual per-game basis, Kobe was not nearly the same defender as Bird, Magic, or Jordan.
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Bro..Bird was great, but trying to compare him as a defender to either MJ or Kobe is beyond ridiculous. There really no comparison. MJ & Kobe are two of the greatest perimeter defenders in the history of the game. Kobe routinely all the way up to his retirement took on the toughest defensive assignment night in & night out by guarding the opposing teams best player. Bird or Magic very seldomly did that. Lebron definitely doesn't do that.
 
HighSeas said:
The most competitive players are the ones who play hard on both ends every night.

Not many qualify right now. Adebayo, Gobert, Lowry, CP3, etc.

Kobe did not compete on D consistently enough to the level of being that kind of competitor. He crafted an image/character that created the perception of it. Westbrook has done the same. Kobe also had playoff games where he was doggin it or refused to score or pass out of spite.

His death was tragic on many levels but let's not whitewash his career.
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Kobe was far more complete than Westbrook could ever dream of being.
 
HighSeas said:
The most competitive players are the ones who play hard on both ends every night.

Not many qualify right now. Adebayo, Gobert, Lowry, CP3, etc.

Kobe did not compete on D consistently enough to the level of being that kind of competitor. He crafted an image/character that created the perception of it. Westbrook has done the same. Kobe also had playoff games where he was doggin it or refused to score or pass out of spite.

His death was tragic on many levels but let's not whitewash his career.
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Kobe made the all defensive team 12 times, so clearly he definitely played D. Conversely Westbrook in yr 11 has yet to be named to that team even a single time.
 
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