OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

[JgDaCane]

Lol. Not even a chance.

 

[PGrady24]

One last one about Williams.

In 606 ABs the season he hit .406 he had more doubles (33) and home runs (37) than strikeouts (27).

No disrespect to Ted Wiliams (one of the best hitters ever), but he was not facing pitching like they have today in the MLB. He would strike out a **** of a lot more if he played in this era.

 

[Tetragrammaton Cane]

Do you realize that we just had a 6'4 230+ kid run a 4.3 just a few weeks ago?. Every combine we have a few linebackers hit close to a 4.4. **** i watched Devin Bush do it...Devin Bush Jr was a kid that i honestly thought was an avg athlete coming out of high school. That mfer hit a 4.4 **** near.

There are legitimate Left Tackles coming out running as good of times as Michael Irvin and some other bigtime wr's of the 90s.

Football has definately gotten more bigger and athletic...though there are still some freakshows fromt he 80s and 90s that would be freaks of any era...

Sheldrick Redwine and Devin Hester run the same 40 time......Sheldrick Redwine.

Very good point … but stop it with the Redwine thing, you know I’m big Redwine supporter. LOL.

but cant we argue that those “exceptions“ have always been there?

there are few posters out there who can speak on this just as well, if not better: @CarolCityHigh @1953 but there was an American shotputter named Brian Oldfield. he held the WR for years. He was 6’5” 276-300 during competition and looked to be carved from stone. Below he is racing Lynn Swann at the 1976 Superstars.

• He beat Lou Ferrigno in a weightlifting competition in a 1976 Superstars competition with a jerk of 310. Nothing monumental, but it was enough to chump the Incredible Hulk on national TV.
• He sparred with Muhummad Ali on the Tonight Show.
• He competed in the 1972 Olympics (though he placed a disappointing 6th).
• He set three world records in the shotput. Two unofficial (70′ 10 1/2″ in 1973) and (75 feet in 1975) and one official throw of 70+ at age 40, which still stands as a record for his age group (he was a late bloomer and didn’t start competing until he was 27).
• He took 7th in the 1978 World’s Strongest Man, besting fellow Baddest ************ Ivan Putsky, NFL lineman John Matusek, and champion puller (arm wrestler) Jack Wright.
• Two of his Highland Games records, the WR in the light Open Stone (17lbs), with a mark of 63’1″, and the WR in the heavy Open Stone (25lbs), with a mark of 46’5″, still stand 40 years after he set them.
• At 6’5″ and 280lbs, Oldfield high jumped 6′ 6″; ran the 100M in 10.5; ran the 40 yard dash in 4.3 seconds (the fastest DT in the 2019 Combine ran a 4.87); and could dunk a 16-pound shotput

Baddest Motherfuckers Ever- Brian Oldfield [Redux]

Let the ****ing and moaning commence! Another *******, and this guy would probably laugh right along with me looking at pictures of people in death camps, snuff ****, and various acts of genocide. …

plagueofstrength.com

 

[TruCane81]

Offensively the only thing close to Kyrie is MJ. And Mj doesnt have the ball control of a Kyrie...might be one of the best dribblers ever,and Steph Curry is right behind him.

What Curry and Klay would do tooooo them...lol They never faced a 1 like Curry and didnt have the best of best guys athletically at that spot to deal with them.
The real issue with that Warriors team vs the bulls is the tempo...they would run them out of the gym. When you get into that Bulls bench of non athletic guys and have to still deal with units of the warriors with Iggy, Livingston and company that push the ball....sheesh. Didnt even mention Kevin Durant. Im leaning to the Warriors vs them.

I was referring to defense with Kyrie and JR. We all know Kyrie is a beast scorer. If he could pass at that level, Cleveland would have competed better in the series they lost to the Warriors.

The Warriors would have to rely on their bench to have a shot to beat the Bulls. The Bulls tenacity, length, and gamesmanship would frustrate the Warriors and hold their star players below their shooting percentages.

Durant’s heart and competitiveness was questioned before he got to Golden State. I’m not sure he has the intangibles to shoot above his percentage and lead the Warriors to victory over Michael and Scottie.

 

[gogeta4]

Very good point … but stop it with the Redwine thing, you know I’m big Redwine supporter. LOL.

but cant we argue that those “exceptions“ have always been there?

there are few posters out there who can speak on this just as well, if not better: @CarolCityHigh @1953 but there was an American shotputter named Brian Oldfield. he held the WR for years. He was 6’5” 276-300 during competition and looked to be carved from stone. Below he is racing Lynn Swann at the 1976 Superstars.

• He beat Lou Ferrigno in a weightlifting competition in a 1976 Superstars competition with a jerk of 310. Nothing monumental, but it was enough to chump the Incredible Hulk on national TV.
• He sparred with Muhummad Ali on the Tonight Show.
• He competed in the 1972 Olympics (though he placed a disappointing 6th).
• He set three world records in the shotput. Two unofficial (70′ 10 1/2″ in 1973) and (75 feet in 1975) and one official throw of 70+ at age 40, which still stands as a record for his age group (he was a late bloomer and didn’t start competing until he was 27).
• He took 7th in the 1978 World’s Strongest Man, besting fellow Baddest ************ Ivan Putsky, NFL lineman John Matusek, and champion puller (arm wrestler) Jack Wright.
• Two of his Highland Games records, the WR in the light Open Stone (17lbs), with a mark of 63’1″, and the WR in the heavy Open Stone (25lbs), with a mark of 46’5″, still stand 40 years after he set them.
• At 6’5″ and 280lbs, Oldfield high jumped 6′ 6″; ran the 100M in 10.5; ran the 40 yard dash in 4.3 seconds (the fastest DT in the 2019 Combine ran a 4.87); and could dunk a 16-pound shotput

Baddest Motherfuckers Ever- Brian Oldfield [Redux]

Let the ****ing and moaning commence! Another *******, and this guy would probably laugh right along with me looking at pictures of people in death camps, snuff ****, and various acts of genocide. …

plagueofstrength.com

 

[gogeta4]

I was referring to defense with Kyrie and JR. We all know Kyrie is a beast scorer. If he could pass at that level, Cleveland would have competed better in the series they lost to the Warriors.

The Warriors would have to rely on their bench to have a shot to beat the Bulls. The Bulls tenacity, length, and gamesmanship would frustrate the Warriors and hold their star players below their shooting percentages.

Durant’s heart and competitiveness was questioned before he got to Golden State. I’m not sure he has the intangibles to shoot above his percentage and lead the Warriors to victory over Michael and Scottie.

He's a 7 footer. lol...There is no length that would bother KD on the Bulls. Lucky thing that Durant wasnt their heart...(reason why he went there)

With GSW its pick your poison they have the 3 guys that can go off on that Bulls team. And again...in a half court game the Bulls have a great chance....But off of misses the GSW team is running.

Im old enough to have watch both. I got MJ being the best player easily on both teams and most competitive. He would have to go completely off to keep up...and thats on both sides of the court. Because he likely has to guard Klay Thompson on defense. Scottie likely holds Durant a bit off of his normal avgs...but then Steph is going for 30+ each night out.
The bench is where they get killed...That Bulls team can play the small ball unit to a good level with Rodman at the 5.

 

[NorthEastCane]

Understatement of the year. Unless you’ve been in the box and seen it, nobody understands what 95+ looks like. It’s unfathomable to see 95 and then 80 with break or 85 with break. I know throwing programs are different and guys aren’t making 50 starts anymore but pitchers are machines. The game has never been tougher than it is right now.

While training may be better now, the facts indicate that the opposite is true.

In 1968, Bob Gibson led the majors with 1.12 era, fourth lowest ever, only exceeded in the dead ball era. The same season, Don Drysdale had 58 2/3 scoreless inning streak (the same season Gibson also has 47). Only Orel Hershiser (in 1988) and Zack Greinke (in 2015) have since cracked the top 10. Luis Tiant lead the AL with a 1.60 era. Denny McClain became the last 30 game winner (also with a 1.96 era). The AL batting champ (Carl Yastrezemski) had only a .301 batting average. MLB batting averages hit a low in 1967 and 1968, .242 and .237 respectively. Home runs per game (.61) were the lowest since the dead ball era except for the WWII years. Runs per game in 1968 were the second lowest ever, exceeded only by 1908.

The game was easily tougher then and the league make a decided effort to increase offense by lowering the mound and cracking down on spitballers, etc.

As far as being machines, Justin Verlander led the majors last year in innings pitched with only 223. The last year anyone had over 300 was Steve Carlton with 304 in 1980. The last one over 400, Ed Walsh 464 in 1908. Specialization with relievers had a huge impact, but also most teams used to have a four man rotation. Pitchers had more starts each season than now. Either way, the average pitcher in the rotation threw many more innings than they do now.

 

[NC_Canes_11]

While training may be better now, the facts indicate that the opposite is true.

In 1968, Bob Gibson led the majors with 1.12 era, fourth lowest ever, only exceeded in the dead ball era. The same season, Don Drysdale had 58 2/3 scoreless inning streak (the same season Gibson also has 47). Only Orel Hershiser (in 1988) and Zack Greinke (in 2015) have since cracked the top 10. Luis Tiant lead the AL with a 1.60 era. Denny McClain became the last 30 game winner (also with a 1.96 era). The AL batting champ (Carl Yastrezemski) had only a .301 batting average. MLB batting averages hit a low in 1967 and 1968, .242 and .237 respectively. Home runs per game (.61) were the lowest since the dead ball era except for the WWII years. Runs per game in 1968 were the second lowest ever, exceeded only by 1908.

The game was easily tougher then and the league make a decided effort to increase offense by lowering the mound and cracking down on spitballers, etc.

As far as being machines, Justin Verlander led the majors last year in innings pitched with only 223. The last year anyone had over 300 was Steve Carlton with 304 in 1980. The last one over 400, Ed Walsh 464 in 1908. Specialization with relievers had a huge impact, but also most teams used to have a four man rotation. Pitchers had more starts each season than now. Either way, the average pitcher in the rotation threw many more innings than they do now.

You must’ve missed the part where I said guys aren’t making 40 starts a year anymore. But if you actually think pitching was better at anytime in history, than it is right now you aren’t watching. If you take today’s pitchers and put them in the dead ball era, the league era might be under 1.00 against those same hitters.

Five man rotations changed the game. In the dog days, guys still have live arms and pitch effectively into the late innings (if the game matters). A decade ago throwing 100 was unreal, there are like 20 or more guys who do it now. Comparing numbers in different eras doesn’t hold any water. The guys you mentioned were elite in their day, but wouldn’t be the same right now.

 

[TruCane81]

He's a 7 footer. lol...There is no length that would bother KD on the Bulls. Lucky thing that Durant wasnt their heart...(reason why he went there)

With GSW its pick your poison they have the 3 guys that can go off on that Bulls team. And again...in a half court game the Bulls have a great chance....But off of misses the GSW team is running.

Im old enough to have watch both. I got MJ being the best player easily on both teams and most competitive. He would have to go completely off to keep up...and thats on both sides of the court. Because he likely has to guard Klay Thompson on defense. Scottie likely holds Durant a bit off of his normal avgs...but then Steph is going for 30+ each night out.
The bench is where they get killed...That Bulls team can play the small ball unit to a good level with Rodman at the 5.

I don’t see Steph going crazy with Harper and Jordan switching on him all night with the first unit. They would wear him down and cause to have a “down” series. Pippen would be one of if not the single best defender Durant has ever faced.

The Bulls wouldn’t be constantly lobbing up and missing long 3’s that allow GS to run ape **** on their opponents.

The teams were constructed to win in their eras, that’s why the officiating is so key to who would win.

The Bulls win under 90s rules. The Warriors win under modern rules. They are great teams in any era, but they were constructed specifically to the requirements of winning in their time. That’s why the Bulls had so many 7 foot stiffs. They had to be ready in the event they had to face one of the great 90s centers. They would have signed more athletic guys if it were like today.

Under 90s rules the Warriors wouldn’t be as efficient due to the physicality and more stringent calling of moving screens. With no three seconds on defense the awarriors would consistently have a seven footer waiting for them at the rim on those easy drives that they use to supplement the long ball.

Vince Carter nailed it when they asked him about the difference between 90s NBA and today.

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

He's a 7 footer. lol...There is no length that would bother KD on the Bulls. Lucky thing that Durant wasnt their heart...(reason why he went there)

With GSW its pick your poison they have the 3 guys that can go off on that Bulls team. And again...in a half court game the Bulls have a great chance....But off of misses the GSW team is running.

Im old enough to have watch both. I got MJ being the best player easily on both teams and most competitive. He would have to go completely off to keep up...and thats on both sides of the court. Because he likely has to guard Klay Thompson on defense. Scottie likely holds Durant a bit off of his normal avgs...but then Steph is going for 30+ each night out.
The bench is where they get killed...That Bulls team can play the small ball unit to a good level with Rodman at the 5.

Jordan & Pippen would lock down Thompson & Curry, GSW would be a one man team with Durant.

 

[NorthEastCane]

You must’ve missed the part where I said guys aren’t making 40 starts a year anymore. But if you actually think pitching was better at anytime in history, than it is right now you aren’t watching. If you take today’s pitchers and put them in the dead ball era, the league era might be under 1.00 against those same hitters.

Five man rotations changed the game. In the dog days, guys still have live arms and pitch effectively into the late innings (if the game matters). A decade ago throwing 100 was unreal, there are like 20 or more guys who do it now. Comparing numbers in different eras doesn’t hold any water. The guys you mentioned were elite in their day, but wouldn’t be the same right now.

A decade ago? Nolan Ryan was throwing 100 mph 50 years ago. Bob Feller was clocked at 106 mph. People who had seen Walter Johnson before radar guns compare him favorably to those that were timed at 100 mph. Walter Johnson himself said that Smokey Joe Wood was the fastest. Throwing fast wasn't invented 10 years ago. It's just become more fashionable for pitchers (like hitting home runs for hitters). Sandy Koufax was a 100 mph pitcher early in his career but he didn't win games. He himself said he took 10% off his fastball and gained command of his pitches and became the pitcher we remember.

You might of missed the part that starting more games each year and pitching more innings each start is more an indication of machine-like iron man status than coming out once a week and throwing 5 strong innings. And the pitchers were effective doing it. It wasn't like they had rag arms in the 7th and 8th inning. Although it does happen, most of the effectiveness of a reliever is not from seeing a stronger, more rested pitcher. It's from seeing the pitch come in from a different angle, within different movement, than they were seeing the whole game. It's not easy adjusting to major league pitchers in one at bat.

Also, the most telling stat is comparing players within their own era. The gap between the batting champ (.301 for Yastremzski) and the league's batting average (.237) was the narrowest ever meaning that even the "elites" were struggling against the overall pitching.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[slothrop8]

A decade ago? Nolan Ryan was throwing 100 mph 50 years ago. Bob Feller was clocked at 106 mph. People who had seen Walter Johnson before radar guns compare him favorably to those that were timed at 100 mph. Walter Johnson himself said that Smokey Joe Wood was the fastest. Throwing fast wasn't invented 10 years ago. It's just become more fashionable for pitchers (like hitting home runs for hitters). Sandy Koufax was a 100 mph pitcher early in his career but he didn't win games. He himself said he took 10% off his fastball and gained command of his pitches and became the pitcher we remember.

You might of missed the part that starting more games each year and pitching more innings each start is more an indication of machine-like iron man status than coming out once a week and throwing 5 strong innings. And the pitchers were effective doing it. It wasn't like they had rag arms in the 7th and 8th inning. Although it does happen, most of the effectiveness of a reliever is not from seeing a stronger, more rested pitcher. It's from seeing the pitch come in from a different angle, within different movement, than they were seeing the whole game. It's not easy adjusting to major league pitchers in one at bat.

Also, the most telling stat is comparing players within their own era. The gap between the batting champ (.301 for Yastremzski) and the league's batting average (.237) was the narrowest ever meaning that even the "elites" were struggling against the overall pitching.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Watch Walter Johnson‘s pitching motion sometime - if he threw 95 mph consistently from that delivery his arm would explode. There were abnormally hard throwing outliers in the past - but the difference in stuff and velocity from the average major league pitcher today and those of 20 years ago is sizeable. The gap when you go back 40 years is, on average, enormous. The difference on aggregate is so huge, it’s not debatable to be honest.

 

[Tetragrammaton Cane]

LOL. But, no, it’s real ****!

 

[NorthEastCane]

Watch Walter Johnson‘s pitching motion sometime - if he threw 95 mph consistently from that delivery his arm would explode. There were abnormally hard throwing outliers in the past - but the difference in stuff and velocity from the average major league pitcher today and those of 20 years ago is sizeable. The gap when you go back 40 years is, on average, enormous. The difference on aggregate is so huge, it’s not debatable to be honest.

You're missing the point. The point is that it wasn't that they couldn't throw fast in the past. They could. But their emphasis was trying to get outs and win ball games. Throwing fast was only one tool in their ****nal. Only a few like Bob Feller or Sam McDowell tried to throw hard all the time. They were more about changing location, changing tempos then going fast when it made sense. Batters were up there trying to protect the plate with two strikes. Even the likes of Ted Williams, Stan Musual and Joe DiMaggio.

Up until the 80's, everyone in the majors could hit a 95-100 mph fastball if they knew it was coming, even utility infielders. In fact, that was the litmus test that kept you at Triple A ball. If you can't hit it, you don't even get the chance. Now, with everyone swinging from ear to ear going for the fences, it's easier for the pitchers. Just throw a fastball on the inside part of the plate. Most can't catch up with it.

 

[nycane]

Jordan was such an elite defender going up against these freaks.

View attachment 115562

Mark price had a great run until he got hurt and jeff horneck would be an all star all the time today. Some of those white guys could ball. Quite frankly I’d take Larry bird over lebron because he’d break lebron mentally.

 

[NorthEastCane]

No disrespect to Ted Wiliams (one of the best hitters ever), but he was not facing pitching like they have today in the MLB. He would strike out a **** of a lot more if he played in this era.

Doubtful. He'd cream the fastball. The only way to get to him was to continual change your pitching pattern. He always said the toughest pitchers he faced were Bob Lemon, Early Wynn, Whitey Ford, Ted Lyons and Eddie Lopat. Guys that would change their pattern and keep him guessing wrong.

 

[plantcity3]

Even when they get opportunities, they don’t have the same level of skill to finish.

Dwight Howard drove me crazy in Orlando. He tried his damndest, but he couldn’t finish unless it was a dunk most of the time.

Dwight was strong, but not Shaq strong. There were times he needed to finish with finesse, but he couldn’t do it. These guys don’t have the same level of body control, footwork, and touch. Why would they? They shoot threes.

D12 tried to turn into something he wasnt. He had two post moves. Drive towards the paint followed by a hook shot, or faceup, drive one way, then spin and dunk and was efficient in PnRs. The media claiming he had no post moves and shaq dissing him made him try to add more to his game. That's when he started taking 15 ft jumpshots, didnt want to PnR anymore, and added more weight that he frame wasn't built for (the root of his back problems imo).

He wasnt really strong imo. Just broad af. He had amazing hops and explosiveness for a guy his size. He was putting up 21/22 pg with his limited repritore. I was saying this then, that he let all the talk about expanding his offensive game his head. All he had to do was become more efficient in the post and develop some finesse on his touch and he could avg 25-27. The paint was absolutely locked down on defense. If he would have embraced his game like Gobert, D12 would be a lock for the HOF.

 

[slothrop8]

You're missing the point. The point is that it wasn't that they couldn't throw fast in the past. They could. But their emphasis was trying to get outs and win ball games. Throwing fast was only one tool in their ****nal. Only a few like Bob Feller or Sam McDowell tried to throw hard all the time. They were more about changing location, changing tempos then going fast when it made sense. Batters were up there trying to protect the plate with two strikes. Even the likes of Ted Williams, Stan Musual and Joe DiMaggio.

Up until the 80's, everyone in the majors could hit a 95-100 mph fastball if they knew it was coming, even utility infielders. In fact, that was the litmus test that kept you at Triple A ball. If you can't hit it, you don't even get the chance. Now, with everyone swinging from ear to ear going for the fences, it's easier for the pitchers. Just throw a fastball on the inside part of the plate. Most can't catch up with it.

The broader point is the overall calibre of pitching is vastly improved now. It’s not even close. When you go back 40 years, the difference is enormous. When you get back to the pitchers of DiMaggio, Williams, and Musial’s era - it’s beyond laughable to try to compare them to today.

 

[1LuvCane]

While training may be better now, the facts indicate that the opposite is true.

In 1968, Bob Gibson led the majors with 1.12 era, fourth lowest ever, only exceeded in the dead ball era. The same season, Don Drysdale had 58 2/3 scoreless inning streak (the same season Gibson also has 47). Only Orel Hershiser (in 1988) and Zack Greinke (in 2015) have since cracked the top 10. Luis Tiant lead the AL with a 1.60 era. Denny McClain became the last 30 game winner (also with a 1.96 era). The AL batting champ (Carl Yastrezemski) had only a .301 batting average. MLB batting averages hit a low in 1967 and 1968, .242 and .237 respectively. Home runs per game (.61) were the lowest since the dead ball era except for the WWII years. Runs per game in 1968 were the second lowest ever, exceeded only by 1908.

The game was easily tougher then and the league make a decided effort to increase offense by lowering the mound and cracking down on spitballers, etc.

As far as being machines, Justin Verlander led the majors last year in innings pitched with only 223. The last year anyone had over 300 was Steve Carlton with 304 in 1980. The last one over 400, Ed Walsh 464 in 1908. Specialization with relievers had a huge impact, but also most teams used to have a four man rotation. Pitchers had more starts each season than now. Either way, the average pitcher in the rotation threw many more innings than they do now.

Now you have me wondering if Bob Gibson had the nutrition and training regimens we have today....

 

[prinmemo]

Baseball has become looking for a pitch in a certain zone, then swing as hard as possible, hoping to make contact.

There is zero stigma about striking out anymore.

Stanton has 1100 hits and 1300 strikeouts.
Trout has 1300 hits and 1100 strikeouts.

By contrast:

Ted Williams had 2600 hits and 700 strikeouts.
Tony Gwynn had 3100 hits and 400 strikeouts.

Young players know if they can hit 25-35 long balls a year they'er going to get paid. It doesn't matter one bit if they strike out 200 times while doing it.

OPS matters more