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OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

DMoney

DMoney

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Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?
 
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Baseball has become looking for a pitch in a certain zone, then swing as hard as possible, hoping to make contact.

There is zero stigma about striking out anymore.

Stanton has 1100 hits and 1300 strikeouts.
Trout has 1300 hits and 1100 strikeouts.

By contrast:

Ted Williams had 2600 hits and 700 strikeouts.
Tony Gwynn had 3100 hits and 400 strikeouts.

Young players know if they can hit 25-35 long balls a year they'er going to get paid. It doesn't matter one bit if they strike out 200 times while doing it.
 
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DMoney said:
Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?
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Good question. I have said for 3 decades now that the move to the 3 pt shot in basketball changed the game in ways that left to less talented overall players. The whole game was about getting the best mid-range shots originally, because that’s where the odds were. And that meant using the backboard, posting, turnarounds, and passing in the lane. It also meant mid-sized guys were critical. When the rules paid off for chucking up 3s, it went to outside in, smaller shooters and inside cloggers. Ripples through defense, too. Add on the defense changes that reduced contact, and again you give run to technical skill over athletic ability, imo. The sad thing is, I don’t know who benefitted rom these changes. Basketball is much more painful to watch today than back in the ‘80s-90s.

Baseball is similar, whether it is from drugs, equipment changes or training changes (likely all 3), long ball changed the sport from what it was in the 60s-80s. And yes, overall speed and athletic ability took a back seat to power and arm. But it made it better for TV, and that’s why it happened.
 
tdubs_truckernutz said:
NBA rules changes have emphasized athleticism over physicality. NBA has therefore become more athletic. In the 1970s the nba had enforcers; google Rudy tomjianovich punch
Click to expand...

I would say the rule changes and analytics emphasize skill moreso than athleticism.

This year’s Heat were tossing out lineups with four white shooters and playing zone. You couldn’t really do that 25 years ago.
 
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DMoney said:
Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?
Click to expand...
I think the athletes are the same. Bigger and stronger today for sure. All leagues want higher scoring games (fantasy football) so the rules favor the offense. Watch James Hardin a great scorer take 5 steps and not get called for traveling. Does that make him a better athlete? Baseball needs to shorten their game but the offense today lengthens the game.
 
Go Canes!! said:
Baseball has become looking for a pitch in a certain zone, then swing as hard as possible, hoping to make contact.

There is zero stigma about striking out anymore.

Stanton has 1100 hits and 1300 strikeouts.
Trout has 1300 hits and 1100 strikeouts.

By contrast:

Ted Williams had 2600 hits and 700 strikeouts.
Tony Gwynn had 3100 hits and 400 strikeouts.

Young players know if they can hit 25-35 long balls a year they'er going to get paid. It doesn't matter one bit if they strike out 200 times while doing it.
Click to expand...

I’ve heard the term launch angle enough. Players used to be embarrassed to get K’d. Now, who cares if you bat .220. Rob Deer and Pete Incaviglia would be loved in this era
 
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easy answer: No. But a lot of people use the argument that all the players are better today because the NBA is more athletic, which I think is a lazy generalization so I see where you're getting at. It's a good question to ask because so many people think time passed = better players, better athletes. The guards of today are much more athletic and skilled than ever before i.e guys like Oladipo, Lavine, and Fox. Spurs have two great athletes in Walker and Murray. Ben Simmons is such a smooth, fast athlete who can put the clamps on defense too.

There was a lot less movement on defense back then. If Steve Kerr could survive that era, Duncan Robinson would be more than fine.

No player in the NBA can move like Steph does laterally, but I agree with you on Harden and Doncic. When Doncic finds a way to get his shooting efficiency near Harden level (36% on 10+ attempts from 3) up from where he is now (31-32%) it's going to get scary for the league.

For what it's worth, MJ and Charles Barkley give in on today's players being more athletic, but slant today's players with soft and coddled comments, which is more than reasonable.

JORDAN PLAYS his new favorite trivia game, asking which current players could be nearly as successful in his era. "Our era," he says over and over again, calling modern players soft, coddled and ill-prepared for the highest level of the game. This is personal to him, since he'll be compared to this generation, and since he has to build a franchise with this generation's players.

"I'll give you a hint," he says. "I can only come up with four."

He lists them: LeBron, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki. As he's making his point, Yvette walks into the living room area and, in a tone of voice familiar to every husband who argues sports with his buddies, asks, "You guys need anything?"

When someone on TV compares LeBron to Oscar Robertson, Jordan fumes. He rolls his eyes, stretches his neck, frustrated. "It's absolutely … " he says, catching himself. "The point is, no one is critiquing the personnel that he's playing against. Their knowledge of how to play the game … that's not a fair comparison. That's not right … Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No."
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But when the GOAT says something like this and leaves out D-Wade (former Jordan brand athlete), Carmelo, and KD, he is being ridiculous to make a point. Quote is from 2013. Dame, Steph and Russ would torch all the point guards from that era too.
 
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Go Canes!! said:
Baseball has become looking for a pitch in a certain zone, then swing as hard as possible, hoping to make contact.

There is zero stigma about striking out anymore.

Stanton has 1100 hits and 1300 strikeouts.
Trout has 1300 hits and 1100 strikeouts.

By contrast:

Ted Williams had 2600 hits and 700 strikeouts.
Tony Gwynn had 3100 hits and 400 strikeouts.

Young players know if they can hit 25-35 long balls a year they'er going to get paid. It doesn't matter one bit if they strike out 200 times while doing it.
Click to expand...
Nail on the head. You struck out 200 times a year anytime before 2000, you didn't play.

The talk of strikeouts made me think of this, a little off topic, but a great read about how pitching has changed. http://gusramsey.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-favorite-box-score-ever.html

"The Red Sox lead off man, Cecil Cooper, went 0-8 with 6 Ks. What's the opposite of "setting the table?" Cooper struck out 74 times in '74, so 1/12th of his season total came in this game. It took him 66 at bats after this game to record 6 more strikeouts"

What kind of strikeout numbers would Nolan Ryan have put up if he played today?
 
JBCanes-NC said:
Yep. He is. You named 1 player that’s at the very end of his career
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So all star Chris Paul who has OKC, a team no one thought much of, in the playoffs is a dinosaur. Got it. And I mentioned Chris Paul because he's only one of a handful of players that fit your 50% criteria. Out of players who attempt at least 2 10-14 foot jumpers per game, Kyrie, CP3, Khris Middleton, CJ McCollum, and Donovan Mitchell are the only ones who fit the bill. Of players who attempt at least 2 15-19 foot jumpers per game, CP3, Middleton, McCollum, Dlo, Josh Richardson, Brogdon, and Mitchell fit the bill. Klay and Steph would be in here if they were healthy. Kendrick Nunn just missed the list at 49%. I don't see any dinosaurs on that list.

Not many players were shooting 50% from the midrange in the 80s/90s.

Players Shooting | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring shooting information for each player in the league based on selected filters.
stats.nba.com stats.nba.com

Should today's players being taking more mid range is a different question though.
 
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Go Canes!! said:
Should have phrased that differently. Offensively in the NBA if you’re ONLY shooting 15 footers, even at a 50% clip you’re a dinosaur.
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[/QUOTE]

Ahhhh got you. I agree with that. They won't even let you get to that point in today's NBA they will pull you from the game or tell you in practice to switch it up.
 
Go Canes!! said:
Baseball has become looking for a pitch in a certain zone, then swing as hard as possible, hoping to make contact.

There is zero stigma about striking out anymore.

Stanton has 1100 hits and 1300 strikeouts.
Trout has 1300 hits and 1100 strikeouts.

By contrast:

Ted Williams had 2600 hits and 700 strikeouts.
Tony Gwynn had 3100 hits and 400 strikeouts.

Young players know if they can hit 25-35 long balls a year they'er going to get paid. It doesn't matter one bit if they strike out 200 times while doing it.
Click to expand...
Wow those are some interesting stats.
 
DMoney said:
I would say the rule changes and analytics emphasize skill moreso than athleticism.

This year’s Heat were tossing out lineups with four white shooters and playing zone. You couldn’t really do that 25 years ago.
Click to expand...

Today's NBA defenses move so much more on defense because of the extra spacing, faster pace, fewer post ups, and fewer Rip Hamilton baseline curl actions every team used to run.
 
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